What are the limits of superhero martial arts?

[lapsedgamer]

I was reading the thread about Mechanon fighting the Champions, and I was struck by a comment about Nighthawk throwing Mechanon. I wondered if most GMs would balk at that. I know that the rules would probably allow this, but it struck me as being odd. I realize that the names of the martial manuevers are not necessarily descripitive of their special effect, but I wonder if there are some limits to what martial arts can do, even super martial arts.

 

If you say that Nighthawk threw Mechanon, you might described it as a clever evasion that caused damage and left the big lug prone, but actually lifting the robot off the ground bothers me for some reason. Now, I don't think Mechanon is particularly heavy, but Nighthawk is not super-strong either. I took Judo and Jui-jitsu for years and you do need to be able to lift someone you are throwing, at least momentarily. You are trying to be very efficient in your use of strength and their momentum, but the weight diferrence really cannot be too significant or it gets really awkward. How would you account for that as a GM? Do people with Density Increase, Knockback Resistance or massive Body scores have some logical, if not rules-legal, edge? Captain America can probaly throw the Hulk, but could he throw The Vision at max density?.

 

Also, can a person with only trained strength really punch a hole in armor plate? I saw something like this in a thread once. Do you have to have some kind of limit on what can be done with a martial or martial killing strike. Do you have to take the added damage classes from skill out of the equation when looking at large, resistant objects or characters? The only character I remember that they dealt with this on was The Karate Kid from the Legion. They had him doing some incredible things, but they also made a point to say that his abilities went above and beyond (probably bought as powers). I would think Iron Fist's punch is probaly bought as a power with charges seperate from all his other manuevers. I don't know. I'm interested in some input.

[nexus]

Re: What are the limits of superhero martial arts?

 

I beleive there are rules for resisting throws with Density Increase, Flight and such in the UMA. If I remember correctly the gist was you can't throw anyone heavier than you could lift with pushed Strength. I think Extra Damage Classes might have effected this somehow (or you coud build an Exert Manuver/Throw that helped).

[Dust Raven]

Re: What are the limits of superhero martial arts?

 

Yes, the rule is that you can't throw anything/one heavier than what you can lift with STR Pushed. I don't recall anything about Damage Classes helping out though.

 

There is a rule that allows you to add distance to your throw if you subtract one damage class from the throw's damage, but this doesn't affect what you can throw in the first place.

[Fedifensor]

Re: What are the limits of superhero martial arts?

 

Personally, after seeing the Hulk thrown by a normal agent in an Avengers comic, I tend to ignore the weight limits if the player gives a good explaination ("I used his own momentum against him").

[Metaphysician]

Re: What are the limits of superhero martial arts?

 

Mechanon probably doesn't weigh *that* much, and his writeup seems to imply a high-agility fighting style.

 

Which means he's got momentum that can be exploited.

 

As for the limits of comic martial arts, it depends. If you are playing Street Level Vigilante Man, then you probably can't do anything that would be too outrageous in most Hong Kong action flics.

 

If you are playing Val Armor Ripoff Man, three words: ain't got none.

[Peregrine]

Re: What are the limits of superhero martial arts?

 

Mechanon probably doesn't weigh *that* much, and his writeup seems to imply a high-agility fighting style.

 

Which means he's got momentum that can be exploited.

 

As for the limits of comic martial arts, it depends. If you are playing Street Level Vigilante Man, then you probably can't do anything that would be too outrageous in most Hong Kong action flics.

 

If you are playing Val Armor Ripoff Man, three words: ain't got none.

Yup. Val Armorr (Karate Kid in the ORIGINAL Legion of Super Heroes) was the guy who beat pre-Crisis Superboy in hand-to-hand by exploiting pressure points. I've seen him do 'brick tricks', such as the Shockwave, justified by application of ki and precision of technique. If you want the top end of superheroic martial arts (outside of DBZ, which is cross- genre anyway), he's your guy.

[steriaca]

Re: What are the limits of superhero martial arts?

 

Mechanon probably doesn't weigh *that* much, and his writeup seems to imply a high-agility fighting style.

 

Which means he's got momentum that can be exploited.

 

As for the limits of comic martial arts, it depends. If you are playing Street Level Vigilante Man, then you probably can't do anything that would be too outrageous in most Hong Kong action flics.

 

If you are playing Val Armor Ripoff Man, three words: ain't got none.

 

I have to agree. It depends on the setting. In a normal Champions game, unless the GM says right out "no Street Fighter clones, no Mortal Combat clones, no Ranma clones, and no Dragon Ball clones", the players can proably find a semi-logical ratinal to buy ANY power, and define it as Ki Manipulation. Which, in fact, fits. (Iron Fist once fought a guy named Skelition Ki, who's martial arts ability alowed him to project his ki in such a way as to alowe him to open any container/door, even if locked).

[Citizen Keen]

Re: What are the limits of superhero martial arts?

 

I took Judo and Jui-jitsu for years and you do need to be able to lift someone you are throwing' date=' at least momentarily. You are trying to be very efficient in your use of strength and their momentum, but the weight diferrence really cannot be too significant or it gets really awkward.[/quote']

 

Actually, not quite true. I took Aikido, and let me tell you. I'm 6'6" tall, and I was 270 pounds when I took Aikido. One of my classmates, who was taking Aikido and Martial Arts so that she could build up her weight to 100 pounds (yeah, that small), was throwing me every day. Like, five to ten feet throws. And she couldn't lift me if her life depended on it. So, there's a weight ratio of about 3 to 1. If Nighthawk weighs 100 kilos, then he could throw 300 kilos with a low Strength (I'd place my classmates strength at about 6 or 7), more with good Strength.

 

Dos centavos.

[Dynamo]

Re: What are the limits of superhero martial arts?

 

I've studied Judo and a bit of SCARS. There is a large body of realistic techniques that will put a much heavier opponent on the ground with some force and take advantage of momentum, and thus qualify as a HERO martial throw.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: What are the limits of superhero martial arts?

 

I like the input I've seen so far. It definitely depends on the realism level of the game. A lot of superhero martial artists really should have powers, not martial maneuvers IMHO.

 

Citizen Keen: I totally agree with most of what you said. When I posed the question, I allowed that a Martial Throw's special effect could be a clever evasion. I never took Aikido, but I have read that the person being thrown must cooperate with the thrower. That cooperation is essentially giving the thrower all the energy they need to make the technique work. If you didn't cooperate, the very small, though skilled, thrower would not be able to get you up and into the air. If you had stood your ground, she would not have been able do those dynamic throws. She could have done something less dramatic to unbalance you, but no big damage Martial Throw-- at least not with that particular special effect. Am I wrong in thinking that?

 

Dynamo: Right. I'm just wondering what the limit is. In a Judo match, when people are actively resisting being thrown, a both-feet-off-the-ground slam dunk is hard to achieve. That's why you win automatically. I have been thrown by smaller people, so I know what you are saying is true. As far as SCARS or other realistic systems, I think that is in the special effect area.

 

I still think there would have to be a limit imposed. The pushed Strength thing sounds right. You probably will not reach it with most superheroic character with trained strength (15-30) and most opponents, but I wouldn't think that anyone would expect to see the Hulk thrown by an agent. I did not see that issue, but that strikes me as just the type of scenario that I was talking about. I look at that and it bugs me. Oh well, I'll get over it.

 

Thanks all.

[RDU Neil]

Re: What are the limits of superhero martial arts?

 

I'm of the "Martial arts that can hurt a true metahuman should be powers, not martial attacks" school.

 

To this end, I max Martial Damage Classes at 2. This still allows a 20 STR Martial Artist to have a 10d6 Offensive Strike... which many supers will feel... but it really shouldn't go above this without the following...

 

Super STR: The martial artists are superhuman themselves.

 

Weapons: Anything from fist loads to bo sticks to magic swords to electro gloves.

 

Innate "Chi" powers: This is anything from Iron Fist to Dragonball Z... this is projected energy... Dim Mak... Lightning from Big Trouble In Little China etc.

 

With any of these, the martial artist can often stand with true metahumans, while at the same time, you can have a "Master martial artist" like Batman, who could never punch hard enough for Superman or Wonder Woman or Martial Manhunter to even feel it... but is still one of the best "human level" martial artist in the world.

 

Other Champs games tend to have a more "generic" feel to them, and every character has roughly the same attacks... roughly the same defenses... and just the SFX is different. This keeps power levels practically even... everyone is equally effective in combat... and any reflection of reality is just not necessary. In fact, Champions was built to be played in this "generic" way, originally. It is only after years of add on rules and modifications to reflect more granularity in the combat, have we come to the current status. I personally like more granularity, but again, because this is a generic system, a lot of confusion can come up with one player expecting a more generic/basic game... and others playing crunchy/detailed games. This can make a game fall apart, as expectations of one side or the other won't be met. Martial arts is one of the main areas where this divide of styles can be apparent.

[Citizen Keen]

Re: What are the limits of superhero martial arts?

 

Citizen Keen: I totally agree with most of what you said. When I posed the question' date=' I allowed that a Martial Throw's special effect could be a clever evasion. I never took Aikido, but I have read that the person being thrown must cooperate with the thrower. That cooperation is essentially giving the thrower all the energy they need to make the technique work. If you didn't cooperate, the very small, though skilled, thrower would not be able to get you up and into the air. If you had stood your ground, she would not have been able do those dynamic throws. She could have done something less dramatic to unbalance you, but no big damage Martial Throw-- at least not with that particular special effect. Am I wrong in thinking that?[/quote']

 

True enough. Aikido is a defensive art. Anyone who knows anything about Aikido will tell you that the best way to defeat an Aikido master is to not move. So, yes, if Mechanon didn't move, then Nighthawk couldn't throw him. But I have a feeling the Energy Blaster's of the group would then proceed to carve him a new one.

[Dynamo]

Re: What are the limits of superhero martial arts?

 

Right. I'm just wondering what the limit is. In a Judo match' date=' when people are actively resisting being thrown, a both-feet-off-the-ground slam dunk is hard to achieve. That's why you win automatically. I have been thrown by smaller people, so I know what you are saying is true. As far as SCARS or other realistic systems, I think that is in the special effect area.[/quote']Remember that all combat maneuvers are game mechanics that can be applied to a variety of special effects, so a Martial Throw is not necessarily a both-feet-off-the-ground slam dunk. For example, there's a bit of nastiness I learned about sweeping one foot to disrupt the opponent's balance while applying force to what used to be their center of gravity. On their way down, I add my weight, preferably via an elbow or knee, to their impact, preferably at a vulnerable point (kidney, face, throat, solar plexus, groin, a joint's anterior surface; the list goes on). This maneuver is a Martial Throw, and at no point am I required to add potential energy to the opponent by lifting them even a millimeter.

 

I do see what you mean, though. Realistically, there would have to be some limit. However, that limit may not be found in realistic human opponents. Once we add the possibility of superhuman strength or mass, those limits could easily be reached, but by adding that possibility, we've already chosen to dispense with a certain amount of realism. If a six-ton brick can lift a car by a fender, then I say a 90-pound martial artist can turf him face first into the asphalt.

 

If you still want a limiting mechanic for the above maneuver, similar to the rule about throwing a target heavier than your pushed lift, I suggest that it couldn't be applied to an opponent with a casual STR greater than your pushed STR.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: What are the limits of superhero martial arts?

 

If you still want a limiting mechanic for the above maneuver, similar to the rule about throwing a target heavier than your pushed lift, I suggest that it couldn't be applied to an opponent with a casual STR greater than your pushed STR.

 

I really like that: simple, logical and likely to be useful 90% of the time. Thanks.

[Vondy]

Re: What are the limits of superhero martial arts?

 

Having studied Judo and some Akido it seems reasonable that a martial artist could put most opponents down with a throw/sweep maneuver. Certainly, there are some common sense issues (the opponent is made of solid granite and weighs 10 tons!), but an explanation could be found in most situations, be it leverage, momentum, suprise, etc. This is doubly true in a mainstream champions game, where realism is a matter of rubber science.