How to handle Posession as a power?

[gewing]

I Can't remember whether this exact thing has been covered, but I have always felt it was one of the things that is hard to do in Hero games.

 

Particularly if like Jericho etc.

 

Mind control just doesn't imo cut it.

 

It popped into my head today, thought I'd bring it up.

[JmOz]

Re: How to handle Posession as a power?

 

The official way is a combination of : Desolid, Clinging, & Mind Control

 

My way is EDM, Trandimensional Mind Control, Clairsentience, and a lot of UBO on certain skills

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: How to handle Posession as a power?

 

I've seen mind swaps done as a Mental Transform. No reason possession couldn't work the same.

 

Assuming the possessor falls unconscious when he is possessing, do it something like this:

 

xd6 Transform (Mental), target to self, Side Effects: Transform self to unconsciousness.

 

Season to taste. Add BOECV, etc.

 

If the possessor vanishes, make the Side Effects be Transform self to nothingness.

[Dust Raven]

Re: How to handle Posession as a power?

 

The official way is a combination of : Desolid, Clinging, & Mind Control

 

My way is EDM, Trandimensional Mind Control, Clairsentience, and a lot of UBO on certain skills

That's one "official" way, and it involves actually merging physically with the target. It's perfect for demons and the like who won't leave a physical body behind anyway. BTW: it's found near the back of the UNTIL: SPD.

 

My mentalist method of possession involves a combination of Mind Scan (0 END), Clairsentience (through senses of others) and Mental Transform (target into target that obeys my every command). Add in a simple Mind Link to give the commands and you're set.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: How to handle Posession as a power?

 

I've seen mind swaps done as a Mental Transform. No reason possession couldn't work the same.

 

Assuming the possessor falls unconscious when he is possessing, do it something like this:

 

xd6 Transform (Mental), target to self, Side Effects: Transform self to unconsciousness.

 

Season to taste. Add BOECV, etc.

 

If the possessor vanishes, make the Side Effects be Transform self to nothingness.

 

I like Transform against the target as well. Speaking book-legally, though, you're not supposed to use Transform on yourself. It's also a bit awkward in that the BODY total on yourself make take effect before or after it works on your target.

 

To remove the possessor's body or other form after possession, I favor Linked EDM, with the "other dimension" being the body/mind/soul of the victim.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: How to handle Posession as a power?

 

In the 5th HERO Beastiary, the Ghost write-up uses Mind Control with the limitation "Must Merge with Target" at - 3/4. I'm not sure if it is relevant that the ghost is also desolid

[JmOz]

Re: How to handle Posession as a power?

 

That's one "official" way, and it involves actually merging physically with the target. It's perfect for demons and the like who won't leave a physical body behind anyway. BTW: it's found near the back of the UNTIL: SPD.

 

My mentalist method of possession involves a combination of Mind Scan (0 END), Clairsentience (through senses of others) and Mental Transform (target into target that obeys my every command). Add in a simple Mind Link to give the commands and you're set.

 

I question the perfection of it: Affect Desolid attacks will affect the individual still, if he tries to possess a child a shadow image will apear, there is no skill transference (Jerico knew MA no matter the form).

 

Not saying my method is much better...

[zebediah]

Re: How to handle Posession as a power?

 

Mind Link, with that adder that allows you to sense what the other person senses.

 

Lots of Mind Control, bought with Concentration at the -1 level, possibly Constant. First, you Mind Control your victim into accepting a Mind Link with you. Then, keeping that up, you mind control the horse's every move.

 

You might want to buy a separate Mind Control for convincing them to keep the Mind Link, and link your "control your actions" Mind Control to the Mind Link. This has the interesting effect of making it such that the victim could temporarily override you, before you reassert your control of the body, or by targetting the Mind Control Only To Accept Mind Link you can actually be excorcised from the host body.

[Vorsch]

Re: How to handle Posession as a power?

 

With a possesion power there are several effects which are often displayed, and could be incorperated as some kind of adder.

 

1 Possesor gains control of targets skill, memories ( rare )

2 Possesor becomes the guiding will of the target ( common )

3 Possesor suplants the targets will/ target effectively is in a coma. ( basic )

4 " " can use all his own skills

5 " " does/doesnot have access to his mental/magic powers

6 " " dies if he leaves body without being able to return to his own body. ( classic )

 

examples

 

The fallen, instant possesion supplants will with full access to skills memories and keeps his own abilities( and alot more ), no physical body dies if host dies.

 

Vampire dominate 5, telepathy based possesion, possesors will suplants hosts no access to skills memories, .

 

Deadman same as fallen except can remain outside of host.

 

various others, most telepathy based though quite a few astral body as well.

 

Questions whose dex do you use, spd?

 

My view is that possesion is sufficiently different to warent its own power with adders, alot of other builds mentioned seem clunky especially if they rely on Mental transform or edm ( though i can see lthe logic i just hate transform as a problem solving tool)

[Dust Raven]

Re: How to handle Posession as a power?

 

I question the perfection of it: Affect Desolid attacks will affect the individual still, if he tries to possess a child a shadow image will apear, there is no skill transference (Jerico knew MA no matter the form).

 

Not saying my method is much better...

Which is why I look for alternate methods if the SFX won't match the mechanics, such as my "for mentalists" version.

[zebediah]

Re: How to handle Posession as a power?

 

With a possesion power there are several effects which are often displayed, and could be incorperated as some kind of adder.

 

1 Possesor gains control of targets skill, memories ( rare )

2 Possesor becomes the guiding will of the target ( common )

3 Possesor suplants the targets will/ target effectively is in a coma. ( basic )

4 " " can use all his own skills

5 " " does/doesnot have access to his mental/magic powers

6 " " dies if he leaves body without being able to return to his own body. ( classic )

 

examples

 

The fallen, instant possesion supplants will with full access to skills memories and keeps his own abilities( and alot more ), no physical body dies if host dies.

 

Vampire dominate 5, telepathy based possesion, possesors will suplants hosts no access to skills memories, .

 

Deadman same as fallen except can remain outside of host.

 

various others, most telepathy based though quite a few astral body as well.

 

Questions whose dex do you use, spd?

 

My view is that possesion is sufficiently different to warent its own power with adders, alot of other builds mentioned seem clunky especially if they rely on Mental transform or edm ( though i can see lthe logic i just hate transform as a problem solving tool)

 

 

Here's a little effort towards building all of those options in Hero. I'm not sure I, with my limited knowledge of the system and my copy of Sidekick and Mystic Masters will be able to pull it off, but here goes...

 

I'm going to refer to "Possession" as a power. I am not refering to it as a Power, but rather as a bundle of Powers to be determined, but probably involving a lot of Mind Control.

 

I also use 'horse' to refer to the subject being possessed. I like it better than 'possessee.'

 

Let's start at the end, with #6, "Possessor dies if he leaves body without being able to return to his own body." This implies to me that this form of possession is built no-range over some sort of Astral Form power (built to taste), probably coming with the limitation "astral form has no connection to physical body" (-1) and a Dependence on "being inside a body," at a level reflecting exactly what you mean by "being inside a body." --does the character actually need to possess someone to 'be in the body,' or can they just skinride, or even just walk the astral form over so it occupies the same space as someone else? Using the Dependence also allows you to control the 'fade rate' of psychic ghosts.

 

 

 

Now let's look at 1, 4, and 5. These all control whether you get to use your own skills & powers, the target's skills & powers, or both.

 

I see a major split between 'mental' and 'physical' skills here. Some skills, one should obviously be able to use even if you're just looking through the horse's eyes and talking to him: mostly knowledge skills, and probably the ability to use your own skills to advise the target, like the expert systems on a computer do.

 

For physical skills and powers, buy "Usable by others, usable by one other, not usable by self when used by other" as a naked advantage, linked to your Possession, and possibly with "No END Cost" and "Invisible." Alternately, you could not buy the END cost and invisible, and make it so that the horse's eyes glow or ghostly hands guide his when 'channeling' a skill. You could even require skill rolls on it, so only if you succeed in a very difficult "Power Skill: Possession" roll can you use all your powers through the horse.

 

Alternately, if you're just looking to use BOECV powers, buy linked Clairsentience, Mental group.

 

This build may not be entirely legal, but it does allow you to give the horse whatever you like...your physical stats, martial arts abilities, Powers, whatever.

 

That covers the cases where you can use the horse's abilities, and either can or cannot use y

our own. If you cannot use the horse's abilities, that might be a limitation on your Possession power. Alternately, the horse might not be there at all...

 

 

 

Buy Shapeshift for all but the Mental group, limited range of forms, imitation only, must be imitating someone you're looking at, Meat Body (-1 limitation, you leave a vulnerable body behind). Also buy ExtraDimentionalMovement, Usable as Attack, so you can stick the horse into an empty pocket dimention where he gets to wrestle with endless darkness and solitude. Perhaps buy an extradimentional mindlink to them, if you can choose to chat.

Put the EDM in a multipower pool with a triggered EDM UaA to teleport the person back when you "stop possessing the horse."

 

Buy teleport (probably megascale), to a single floating point defined as "your body." If you want, have it be triggered by EDMing the horse back into reality. If you want to walk away after being killed, buy a little regeneration linked to the teleport or something.

 

If you want, but all sorts of powers (or better yet a VPP), "Only to mimic powers of the horse," so you do really get to be them. Applying a skill roll "Power Skill: Possession" to everything gives you the effect of having to struggle with unfamiliar powers.

 

This handles everything except the fact that the horse takes damage whenever you do. You might be able to talk the GM into making that a feature of the pocket dimention, especially since the dimention's "inside the body," but that might be an abuse of EDM.

 

Or, I suppose, you could be making them desolid, not against damage, and taking clinging BOECV to hold them in place over you so everyone hits them instead of you. I think that's more expensive than the EDM, but might be a reasonable option, especially as it also protects you from damage.

 

 

 

As for #2, being the "guiding will" of the target...normally, I'd expect this to be done with lots of Mind Control. I'd also use the construct I wrote about before on this thread, with one Mind Control to force them into a Mind Link so you can see everything they sense and don't have to target your "control the actions" Mind Control. If you're going with the shapeshift option, then you don't need to do this.

 

And if you're mindlinked, you don't need to have equal speed...you command them to follow the orders of the voice in their head, and talking for command purposes (like presence) doesn't take any time...if your GM complains, you might be able to get a hefty discount on extra Speed, only usable with Possession, only to match horse's speed.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: How to handle Posession as a power?

 

With a possesion power there are several effects which are often displayed, and could be incorperated as some kind of adder.

 

I like the idea of adders. Let's consider this in the proper HERO frame of mechanics and effect. Possession often takes a few forms:

 

Type 1 -- Psi possesses target's body and own body remains in a coma-like state.

(this is essentially Mind Control with Zero DCV Concentration)

 

Type 2 -- Psi possesses target's body and own body merges with target.

Type 3 -- Psi possesses target's body and target's mind is transfered into Psi's body.

 

Type 1 would be typical of most telepaths using the astral form mode, Karma (New Mutants) is the best example of this.

Type 2 is what most of us are looking for, Jericho (Titans) is the main example

Type 3 is a rare spin, Dr Doom (FF) is a good example of this

 

So let's consider what i've labeled Type 2 and Type 3.

 

I) Psi gains control of target's body [given]

II) Psi merges with target's body, cannot be separately targeted [given]

III) Psi retains own skills [given]

IV) Psi is able to use all physical powers of the target [given]

V) Psi is able to use physical skills of the target [given]

VI) Psi retains own mental or mystic powers [adder +10]

VII) Psi suffers damage if the target does [feedback as per Force Wall?]

VIII) Psi is able to "ride" target, leaving target in control [adder +10]

IX) Psi can use target's INT skills [adder +5] and/or PRE skills [adder +5]

X) Target is/is not aware of actions while possessed (adds to target EGO when determining effect roll needed; as with mind control)

XI) Target is transfered to Psi's body (+/- 0)

 

Examples

 

The fallen, instant possesion supplants will with full access to skills memories and keeps his own abilities( and alot more ), no physical body dies if host dies.

 

VI, VII, IX, X

 

Vampire dominate 5, telepathy based possesion, possesors will suplants hosts no access to skills memories, .

 

VI

 

Jericho -- full access to all physical abilities of target, no mental/social abilities

 

VI, VIII

 

Doctor Doom -- body switching

 

VI, XI

 

Questions whose dex do you use, spd?

 

I'd use the target's DEX & SPD, but the Psi's EGO

 

My view is that possesion is sufficiently different to warent its own power with adders, alot of other builds mentioned seem clunky especially if they rely on Mental transform or edm ( though i can see lthe logic i just hate transform as a problem solving tool)

 

I'd agree. I'd say 10 pts per 1d6, with the above adders available. Feedback as a possible limit (including damage and possibly death if target dies while possessed)

 

Target can challenge each phase for control (Psi ejected if Target wins Ego roll or contest). +1/4 to move Breakout Roll down time chart one step

 

This power is stronger than mind control but not enough to justify 15 per d6

 

Comments?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: How to handle Posession as a power?

 

We seem to be veering toward the old "Shift Spirit" Power from the Spirit Rules (in Horror HERO and Hero System Almanac I).

[Dust Raven]

Re: How to handle Posession as a power?

 

We seem to be veering toward the old "Shift Spirit" Power from the Spirit Rules (in Horror HERO and Hero System Almanac I).

I liked those rules. They forced a lot of the flexibility out of the system, but the did cover a few niches.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: How to handle Posession as a power?

 

We seem to be veering toward the old "Shift Spirit" Power from the Spirit Rules (in Horror HERO and Hero System Almanac I).

 

Never seen them

[Teflon Billy]

Re: How to handle Posession as a power?

 

With some more research into the in-genre uses of this type of power and some play testing, I'd have to agree whole heartedly that this is a great candidate for a full fledged Power. And I believe it should be added to the system.

 

I beleive that some more thought needs to go into all the permutations and to the overall [Types] as you call them. I'm not saying you missed any, but there may be some quirkier sub-types of this power (a hypothetical [Type 4] so to speak) that should be fuller vetted out and looked into.

 

And further adders and limitations should be looked into. (i.e. Possesion at range, must hold targets gaze, leaves an astral cord back to Possesors body, etc...)

 

But other than the perenial request to split regeneration from heal, I'd say this issue comes up the most and I feel the in-system solution is the least satisfying (regeneration at least still works in 5th Ed, just not to everyones liking).

 

Yup, with some spit and polish I think this would be a great submission to Steve for a rules addition.

 

Any agreements, opinions, am I just sniffing too much glue?

 

TB

 

{snipped Sleepy Drug's Great Proposal}

[SleepyDrug]

Re: How to handle Posession as a power?

 

spit and polish to come...