Lots of questions from a lost gamer...

[Jonny Reload]

Well, here I am... I've got the itch, the worst itch EVER of wanting to run a Space Opera setting. I've only done it once in my 14 years of role playing and that was with Alternity (The only GOOD D20 system ever made by TSR before they were... Assimilated.) And it was a biblical game that most of my friends still talk about to this day. And thats what has pushed me over the edge to bring back my campaign setting called The Astral Saga. (For those of you who are curious, it was basically Shadowrun in Space.)

 

Anywho, looking at D20: Modern and D20: Space, yeah.... Thats a god awful system which doesn't inspire a trace of role playing. (It's a great system for miniatures, but not for telling a story). Then I stumbled over to GURPS... GREAT support for... Well, EVERYTHING! Good god Steve Jackson is a busy man, he makes role playing books to cover EVERYTHING! But, the system was too... Abstract (Yes, even more so then D20 in my opinion.) Shadowrun/Wizkids is on the verge of dying off so I won't even try to convert their stuff into a space setting. Now I know plenty of you are gonna pick a bone with me on that, but I wanna support a company thats gonna be around for a while. I'm the kind that will by supplements and etc. because the publisher has provided me with free time in my life rather then designing up rules in my room for hours on end. I look at it as PAYING for more free time in my life since I'm a busy individual.

 

And I've been browsing over alot of the free stuff so far, I mean it looks A LITTLE like GURPS, but as for my questions...

 

What are the differences between GURPS and the Hero System?

 

Where on the top 10 list of rpg publishers does HERO GAMES stand? I mean, is this a struggling RPG company or are they making plans to expand and grow into other fields (Like White Wolf or WOTC.)

 

When did Hero Games start their little nitch in the RPG market?

 

How big is Hero Games following of supporters?

 

I know many of these questions might seem artificial, but I am looking to invest my money into a new RPG company that can support me and my Space Opera addiction. Any feedback at all would be greatly appreciated since I'm basically trying to be sold on the idea of commiting/convincing/persuading me and all my RPG friends to try and convert to this standard of RPG system.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Lots of questions from a lost gamer...

 

 

And I've been browsing over alot of the free stuff so far, I mean it looks A LITTLE like GURPS, but as for my questions...

 

What are the differences between GURPS and the Hero System?

GURPS credits the HERO System as a primary inspiration, so they are very similar.

 

I've had very limited experience with GURPS, but to my mind GURPS fell apart at the high end of play. The HERO System on the other hand tends to get compressed at the low end.

 

There are other forumites who have more GURPS experience, so Ill let them comment further.

 

Where on the top 10 list of rpg publishers does HERO GAMES stand? I mean, is this a struggling RPG company or are they making plans to expand and grow into other fields (Like White Wolf or WOTC.)

 

HERO Games has always been a small company, but its current owners, "Defenders of Justice" have been growing the company in the past several years since they acquired it.

 

I have no idea where they rank in terms of sales as compared to the other RPG publishers.

 

 

When did Hero Games start their little nitch in the RPG market?

A long long time ago. Ive been playing the game for 14 years now, and when I started the game was already in it's 4th Edition. It was originally just Champions, and grew from there. With 4th Edition it was billed as the HERO System and started to go the same route as GURPS, with the Champions title just referring to its Superheroes line.

 

However the Champions line was still the companies bread and butter, and there were still many people who identified with the product as "Champions".

 

The 5th Edition, DOJ's era of product produced in the last several years, has more parity with the support given to the different genre lines.

 

How big is Hero Games following of supporters?

Theres three of four of us now. One day we hope to have enough to field a softball team so we can enter into the the GenCon Invitational Softball League

 

Actually there's a decent number of us these days, but we are still a rare breed of gamer. However Im glad to say that the 5th Edition has seen a renewed interest in the game and our numbers have grown a bit in the last few years.

 

 

I know many of these questions might seem artificial, but I am looking to invest my money into a new RPG company that can support me and my Space Opera addiction. Any feedback at all would be greatly appreciated since I'm basically trying to be sold on the idea of commiting/convincing/persuading me and all my RPG friends to try and convert to this standard of RPG system.

 

You can run just about any kind of game with the HERO System. It's a inclusive extendible system, so you can convert in things you like from other games.

 

You might want to check out the product called "SIDEKICK" -- it's a pared down version of the HERO System rules aimed at people new to the game, and priced at a reasonable $10. That should be enough for you to see if you like the game or not.

[MistWing]

Re: Lots of questions from a lost gamer...

 

I don't know all of the answers to your questions, but here are a couple of answers.

 

How long has Heros been in it's nicht? Before Heros became Heros, it was Champions and I started playing Champions in the mid 1980's.

 

What are the diferences between GURPS and Heros? These are my opinions.

 

1. GURPS has more source material (IMO: The best is written by David Pulver). In addition to genre books, GURPS has converted book and other RPGs to GURPS format.

 

2. GURPS source books run the gambit of very poor (GURPS Supers) to very good (GURPS Space). I have only read 3 Heros sourcebooks, but I think they are all well written

 

3. GURPS strives for realism. Heros does not. As a result, GURPS tends to be a deadlier game than Heros

 

4. GURPS is comprised of a large number of pre-defined capabilities with limited 'official' ways to modify them. Heros also has a large number of pre-defined capabilities, but it has a huge number of 'official' ways to modify them. What this means is that Heros is more capable of making what you want while staying within the official game mechanics. For example, in GURPS, if I want the ability to Shape Shift into a bird, I have to worry about staying as a bird for too long or I might get stuck in that form (This is from the GURPS Magic spell 'Shape Shift'). In Heros, I don't automatically have to worry about this. If I want to take that as a limitation, no problem. But it isn't an inheirant part of the power

 

5. Heros requires a calculator to make a character. GURPS does not. This is because of the afore mentioned adaptability.

 

 

So, in conclusion, GURPS is a game with a lot of source material, but also has game restrictions. Heros has fewer source material, but the gam itself is more adaptable to get what you actually want.

 

Again, this is all my opinion. My preference is to use GURPS to get source material, but use Heros to actually play

 

MistWing SilverTail

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Lots of questions from a lost gamer...

 

Welcome aboard, Mr. Reload. I suspect you'll be happy you dropped in. Now, to answer your specific questions:

 

GURPS vs. HERO: both games aspire to be "universal" systems, and generally do well at it, but their approaches are rather different. GURPS has a core set of mechanics, but then adds on specific elements designed to suit a particular genre, like magic spells, superpowers, psionics etc. However, each of these abilities function differently and have different effectiveness even for the same cost, so you can't really combine them or cross characters over from one genre to another. OTOH HERO is a single all-embracing system whose elements function essentially the same across all genres, but which has built-in modifiers that allow you to tailor the individual elements - Powers, Talents and the like - to suit the genres. Unlike the selections of abilities from GURPS, you have the ability to design how things like magic or psionics will work in your campaign, and you can readily transport them from one campaign or genre to another.

 

Hero Games had been in virtual limbo for several years before its current owners, DOJ Ltd., purchased the rights to all things Hero. Everything you'll find in the "Our Products" section of the website has been published over the last two-and-a-half years. The company has apparently been prospering, enough that the most reliable available survey of industry sales (Ken Hite's "Out of the Box" column on GamingReport.com) has them rivalling the sales of GURPS books. DOJ publishes one or two new HERO books every month, and last year hired a new full-time creative employee and bumped their schedule from 12 to 18 books per year.

 

Hero Games started out as Champions, the superhero roleplaying game, with its first edition in 1981. That game went through a second and third edition at the same time as Hero put out fantasy and sci-fi games with somewhat different mechanics. All of these game mechanics were synthesized into the single unified HERO System in 1989, which is usually referred to as "Fourth Edition." (BTW you'll find quite a few of us here who have been playing one or another version of this game since the early '80's.)

 

The size of HERO's following? Tough to call without sales figures (which the company is understandably reluctant to divulge). However, there are over 2700 registered users for this discussion forum, and we usually show around as many "guests" lurking here as registered folks. You can extrapolate what percentage of the total fanbase you believe a web community represents.

 

I think you would get a better impression of the strength of support for HERO by checking out the "Hero Links" in the blue banner at the top of this webpage. The quality and diversity of what's out there may surprise you, and please remember that these are mostly just the "cream of the crop". Also keep in mind that a number of these were created before DOJ and 5th Edition, when official support for the game had dropped to nearly zero.

[Maelstrom]

Re: Lots of questions from a lost gamer...

 

Champions was originally created by George MacDonald. The original HERO games was located in San Mateo, in a building that had some . . . colorful tenants. I remember buying the original blue book in either 1981 or 1982, at Games and Glass in Burlingame.

 

GURPS is sort of HERO without the flexibility, and with a lot more source material. It's not as flexible, and until DoJ took over HERO, GURPS had much better art. My biggest problem with GURPS is a lack of power frameworks.

[DrFurious]

Re: Lots of questions from a lost gamer...

 

Since no one seems to have addressed this point, I thought it might warrant a comment.

Well, here I am... I've got the itch, the worst itch EVER of wanting to run a Space Opera setting.

 

Shadowrun/Wizkids is on the verge of dying off so I won't even try to convert their stuff into a space setting. Now I know plenty of you are gonna pick a bone with me on that, but I wanna support a company thats gonna be around for a while. I'm the kind that will by supplements and etc.

 

I know many of these questions might seem artificial, but I am looking to invest my money into a new RPG company that can support me and my Space Opera addiction. Any feedback at all would be greatly appreciated since I'm basically trying to be sold on the idea of commiting/convincing/persuading me and all my RPG friends to try and convert to this standard of RPG system.

 

While it seems that Hero is going strong, we can't really make a solid judgment without some insider business info. Suffice it to say, it looks like it's in good hands and will be around for a while yet.

 

I'm not sure what support you are looking for in a game company. Hero has good support in a wide range of supplements but across a range of genres and game mechanics (i.e. the Ultimate ??? series). If you are looking for supplements for Space Opera, I dont' foresee DOJ putting out a great deal more. Realistically, you have a few space-oriented supplements already out:

Star Hero

Terran Empire

Alien Wars

Spacer's Toolkit

 

Some of the other supplements may be applicable (such as The Ultimate Vehicle and Galactic Champions) to a space game but the only other item on the release schedule is 'Worlds Of Empire' in 2005. I don't know if you'll see anything past that. It seems that Space Hero isn't a great seller (anyone confirm that?) so development efforts will focus on more profitable areas - Fantasy Hero, Dark Champions, the Ultimate Books, etc. You may not ever see additional supplement like 'Sector X of the Terran Empire' or 'Merchant Traders of the Terran Empire'. Supplements detailing areas of a setting seem targeted toward Fantasy, and Dark Champions/Champions lines.

 

Again, my impression is that you're looking for a company to develop the setting material for you - a reasonable requirement for a busy individual. I don't think that Hero will be putting out a lot of support past what there already is for the Space genre - at least in the near future. There may be a trickle of supplements in the upcoming years but nothing like a White Wolf support of WOD. The Space genre doesn't seem as popular as the others and will receive less attention.

[Vorsch]

Re: Lots of questions from a lost gamer...

 

GURPS is for people who want to play normal human beings with slightly higher than average stats with equipment from various Tech levels ( preferably modern or archaic). All super powers, magic psionics, is on a purely ad hoc basis with no basic construction rules or even guidelines. pick a number between 5-100 thats how much something costs.

 

Hero system is for people who want to play superheroes, ( alot of people are going to disagree with this but its true anyway ) normals PCs are pretty bland as characteristics are cheap eg you can have MAX human stats in all 16 stats for 162pts out of a Heroic starting level of 150. The ability to construct most any effect from basic rules if a principal and defining strength of the game, though to be fair a few obvious powers have been missed out.

 

Gurps has more optional rules than even a person with photographic memory could remember, Champions has a small list of optional rules.

 

Champions plays better. alot better.

[arcady]

Re: Lots of questions from a lost gamer...

 

I've got a review of Star Hero open in another window that should be posted soon.

 

It's in work.

 

The book is amazing in content, though I have to say I'm not so fond of the art.

 

 

GURPS does the Traveller genre of science fiction well, but other genres poorly. I feel that way due to the nature of weapons and armor in GURPS. When you have what amounts to ten hit points, and you use a gun that does 15d6 damage, and armor that stops 40 or 50 points... A single die of difference in armor or gun power makes victory nearly automatic for one side or another - or both sides cannot harm each other at all.

 

Traveller however has a distinctive flavor to it's setting and particular equipment for which this instant kill nature is fitting, and the general mechanics of GURPS fit the setting better than its own original mechanics did.

 

If you're willing to make your own setting, I recommend Star Hero. If you want a premade science fiction setting, I recommend GURPS and the GURPS Traveller books. You can skip GURPS Space and the many Ultra Tech books.

 

The Traveller setting however, feels more like classic science fiction - something Asimov would come up with - than what modern science fiction tends to deliver.

[Darren Watts]

Re: Lots of questions from a lost gamer...

 

Hey Jonny! While I can't give out too much in the way of private sales numbers and the like, I can give you some info on the company's history. Hero Games was originally founded in 1980 and Champions, their first game, was released in early 1981. The game was originally designed by George McDonald (who, as I understand it, worked out the point-buy system and superpowers structure during some boring lectures) and Steve Peterson (who took George's basic framework and added the "conflict resolution" mechanics, the CV and die roll structure) with later contributions from Ray Greer and several others. Since a superhero game needs to be able to handle the widest possible range of abilities and possible settings, it turned out to make an excellent base to become a generic setting, applicable across any genre, and over time that's what it's become.

 

While fairly successful, all of the founders had other jobs and were unable to devote full-time hours to running the company, so a series of licensing deals left management in other hands on and off throughout the '80s and early '90s (the ICE years and afterwards), until the company was sold outright to Cybergames in the late '90s. There it languished a bit as Cybergames went through some difficulties, and we purchased it from them in 2001. We released the 5th Edition of the rules, written by Steve Long, in March 2002, and have released about thirty supplements across several genres since.

 

We don't give out proprietary sales info, but Comics and Game Retailer , a well-known industry magazine, publicly prints estimated sales figures from reporting stores on a monthly basis. Though not exactly scientific, they're pretty much the best the industry has to go on. They rank RPG sales by company, and in those monthly rankings we've been as high as third and as low as eleventh since 5th Ed was released.

 

The posters above are correct- though Star Hero itself (the genre book, and along with either 5th Edition or the easy-play Sidekick rules all one actually *needs* to play sci fi) is one of our best-selling books, the various setting and support books for the line have not done as well, and we only plan limited additional support for those settings (probably in the neighborhood of 1-2 books per year.) However, a lot of our general "system support" material is as useful for Star Hero as it is for any other genre, so it's not as though the line is starving. We love the setting stuff we've produced (by great writers like Jim Cambias, Steve Long and Allen Thomas), and we have no intention on giving up on it entirely.

 

My current theory runs a bit like this: most sci-fi gaming fans fall into one of two groups- people who want to play in a specific, beloved setting (usually involving a license, like Star Trek, Star Wars, B5, Farscape, etc.) or a long-established game world (like Traveller); or people with strong new ideas for a setting and want to do most of that design work themselves. Both of those fans, if they want to play Hero, need the core book and Star Hero, but beyond that new published settings are of limited use to them, no matter how good they might be. (Which is why excellent sci-fi products like Blue Planet or our own Terran Empire have not had the success to match their critical acclaim.)

 

I'll let other people handle the Hero vs. GURPS debate, since I'm obviously biased (though I've written for Pyramid and remain a tremendous fan of Steve Jackson Games in general.) When it comes to who has more support, though, all I ask is that you compare what we've put out since we started to what they've released in the same time frame- we can't be expected in thirty months to have a line as complete as what they've done in a dozen years. We're gaining on 'em, though. dw