HERO for the GURPS gamer

[Funksaw]

Hi. Quick question - are there any guides out there to HERO (specifically HERO Sidekick, which I just special-ordered from the FLGS) from the perspective of a long-time GURPS gamer?

[GamePhil]

Re: HERO for the GURPS gamer

 

Well, the old Roleplayer had an article about converting Hero 4th to GURPS, that might make a good start if no one comes up with something better. I believe the article can be found somewhere in Pyramid Online or the SJ site, I fear I can't remember where exactly.

[Southern Cross]

Re: HERO for the GURPS gamer

 

The Fourth Edition of Fantasy Hero had a few pages of conversion notes for some popular Fantasy systems,including GURPS.I believe that Michael Surbrook has the Hero System/GURPS conversion notes on his website http://surbrook.devermore.net .

[fredrik_nilsson]

Re: HERO for the GURPS gamer

 

The Fourth Edition of Fantasy Hero had a few pages of conversion notes for some popular Fantasy systems' date='including GURPS.I believe that Michael Surbrook has the Hero System/GURPS conversion notes on his website http://surbrook.devermore.net .[/quote']

 

You got the address wrong. It should be:

 

http://surbrook.devermore.net/index/

 

If you skip the index part you just get an error from the browser.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: HERO for the GURPS gamer

 

Well' date=' the old Roleplayer had an article about converting Hero 4th to GURPS, that might make a good start if no one comes up with something better. I believe the article can be found somewhere in Pyramid Online or the SJ site, I fear I can't remember where exactly.[/quote']

 

That would be here: http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/Roleplayer/Roleplayer21/HeroToGURPS.html

 

The emphasis is on GURPS Supers to Champions (4E), but it has enough detail to be broadly useful. While it focusses on converting HERO into GURPS, much of it is direct one-to-one correspondence, so it would be helpful going the other way.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: HERO for the GURPS gamer

 

You got the address wrong. It should be:

 

http://surbrook.devermore.net/index/

 

If you skip the index part you just get an error from the browser.

 

Quite right.

 

This is where you can find Mike Surbrook's specific system conversion notes, again dealing with GURPS Supers: http://surbrook.devermore.net/herosource/gurpshero.html

 

Mike has also adapted a number of the disadvantages from GURPS to HERO terms: http://surbrook.devermore.net/herosource/newdisads.html

[Funksaw]

Re: HERO for the GURPS gamer

 

Quite right.

 

This is where you can find Mike Surbrook's specific system conversion notes, again dealing with GURPS Supers: http://surbrook.devermore.net/herosource/gurpshero.html

 

Mike has also adapted a number of the disadvantages from GURPS to HERO terms: http://surbrook.devermore.net/herosource/newdisads.html

Not really what I'm looking for. I'm not looking to -convert- anything over. I'm trying to get advice on how the game feels in play and in GMing it. If I'm used to GURPS character creation, for example, how will HERO feel different? What are the basic assumptions of HERO combat as opposed to GURPS combat? etc.

[GamePhil]

Re: HERO for the GURPS gamer

 

That would depend: what GURPS books do you regularly use? The answer will vary depending on what you use GURPS for.

 

Which brings us to the first, and most important, difference: GURPS uses a variety of different systems built onto a core set of rules. So, while all characters are built on points with 4 starting stats and several calculated stats, and Skills largely work the same way, Psionics work differently from Superpowers, which both work differently from Magic and Cybernetics. Different magic systems might even take on different rules (such as Voodoo). HERO, on the other hand, uses one set of rules for everything, so you use the same rules for building a superhero as a psionicist.

 

This means that the core character creation rules are much more complex, but that you only need to master the one set rather than several to run various settings. However, like any game, all you really need to know to play a character once he is built is the set of abilities he has.

 

Combat is more oriented towards heroic rather than the "realistic" view used in GURPS. Characters can be knocked unconscious and get up little the worse for wear, unlike in core GURPS where they will probably need hospitilization. Basically, it's something like the optional Stun rules in GURPS Supers. This can vary a great deal depending on what the GM is willing to allow characters to have: low defenses can lead to much greater long-term damage.

 

The core rules for combat are about the same complexity wise, but can scale up if you want more detail, same as in GURPS.

 

That's all I can think of at the moment. I'm sure there will be more.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: HERO for the GURPS gamer

 

Ah, I see what you're getting at, Funksaw; sorry about the misunderstanding.

 

Let me start with the GM perspective, because that's probably the most involved difference. As GamePhil pointed out, any type of HERO game proceeds from the same core ruleset. Whether you're running pulp heroes, super heroes, cyberpunk, sword-and-sorcery, the game mechanics are essentially the same. What makes each genre different is the large number of modular elements that you can apply to make the game function as you want it to: optional rules, combat maneuvers, Power Modifiers and so on.

 

On the one hand this gives you as GM much greater freedom than in GURPS, where the way spells, psionics etc. work is already decided for you; in HERO you get to make these decisions yourself, tailored to your taste and priorities. The other edge of that sword is that you do have to make those decisions, which can require a lot more prep time to set up a campaign than in GURPS. Hero Games has published many support books full of advice and prebuilt stuff which can alleviate a lot of that burden, though.

 

For both GM and player, you'll need a slightly different perspective going in when building characters, magic systems, starships or other genre elements. GURPS groups these things according to how the game designer constructed them: if you want your fantasy wizard to hurl magic fireballs, you find the "Fireball" spell, learn how it works mechanically, and add that to the character's sheet. With HERO you decide first what you want a Fireball in your game to do, then look for the generic Power that best fits it, modify it to taste, and call that your Fireball. We refer to that as "reasoning from effects."

 

Combat has many tactical options as in GURPS, but can run the gamut from very gritty, lethal gunbattles right up to supers punching each other clear across a battlefield and straight through a building. Again, the various modular elements let you tailor the flow of combat to be as realistic or as cartoony as you prefer. The default standard is not as lethal as in GURPS due to the separation of BODY (lethal) and STUN (non-lethal) damage that a character can take; but with options you can go from one-shot kills to opponents pounding each other all day without permanent damage.

 

Probably the biggest difference for you with HERO combat would be the Speed Chart. HERO doesn't use a random initiative roll as the default; every character has a Speed stat which they can pay to buy up, which determines when and how often they can take actions during a 12-second Turn. In my experience the chart makes it easier to keep track of the flow of combat especially with large groups, but if you prefer more randomness you may want to try some of the alternatives to the Speed Chart which we could describe to you.

 

While you're waiting for your copy of Sidekick to arrive, there are some other resources here that might help you wrap your head around this stuff. For starters, I'd suggest you check this section of the online FAQs. I'd also recommend you go to this page from the "Free Stuff" section of the website: the first three links will let you download documents explaining some of the basic concepts and mechanics of the system, and give examples on how to use it to emulate various genres.

 

Any more questions you may have, feel free to come back and ask.

[Toadmaster]

Re: HERO for the GURPS gamer

 

In my view HERO is a little less complicated than GURPS,

 

smaller list of basic skills although many types of knowledge skills are open ended so in theory the skill list is as comprehensive, just not as spelled out. For example in GURPS there is a cooking skill, in HERO you would buy a Knowledge skill specified as cooking, or cooking chinese food, or cooking Peking Duck, the more specific the skill the more info will be gained on a normal roll.

 

The combat system is also simplified in comparison, it is still detailed but does not have all the options of GURPS, defensive attack, all out attack, passive defence etc. Combat is generally handled with one roll vs the several you often find with GURPS. HERO still has many of these options in a way, characters can have combat skill levels, if they put them all into defense that would be similar to GURPS' defensive attack, all into damage or to hit would be similar to All out attack. Damage is very compressed compared to GURPS, in HERO a .45 handgun does 1d6+1, a 7.62mm Rifle does 2d6+1 and a .50 cal does 3d6, in GURPS you are looking at 2d6+1, 7d6 and 13d6 for the same rounds.

 

HERO has many more stats, GURPS has 4 plus 2 or 3 figured stats its been awhile since I played GURPS) move, endurance and hit points (if extra are taken) IIRC.

 

HERO has 14 or so stats including Stun and Speed. Speed is very different from GURPS move as mentioned in the post above, speed deals with how often you can take an action most speed ranges from 2-6 but it can go to 12 or higher in high powered supers games. Stun is non lethal damage, it is very possible to have a character knocked out who will recover fully in a short time on the other hand it is also possible to have a character killed who never goes down until he is dead, it just depends on the type of attack and what defense the character has.

 

Where HERO is more complicated is the creation of items or powers, GURPS tends to prvide lots of premade items, HERO tells you how to build them and provides examples. In GURPS the GM could fudge a bit to modify a spell, in HERO the GM can build the spell exactly the same way as other have been built.

 

Overall the two games play similarly, HERO was influenced by Mage and Melee (pre GURPS SJ games) and in turn HERO influenced GURPS when it was being developed. There are some differences though because there are HERO players that hate GURPS and GURPS players that hate HERO and players that play both.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: HERO for the GURPS gamer

 

I have 14yrs experience GM'ing and Playing GURPS and only a few years with HERO System. IMOHO HERO System is the better of the two. With GURPS the GM makes judgement calls on every unwritten rule and interpretations.

 

The Combat System for GURPS is relatively simple, but can become complicated with use of Advanced, Optional, and House Rules.

 

Armour and Skill bogs down GURPS more than HERO. I have played both and GM'ed both. HERO combat is faster.

 

Magic for GURPS is formula. HERO Magic is mechanical, but one worked out you don't have to look it up again.

 

With GURPS you have to learn a new mechanic for every addition. For HERO it's the same for EVERYTHING!!!

 

With the resurrection of HERO, I have abandoned GURPS for HERO. In 2yrs I haven't look back. I still play in my groups long running GURPS Fantasy campaign, but I will not be GM'ing or buying GURPS books anytime soon (save the resource books like Japan, Russian, Vikings, etc...)

 

I guess I'm a born again HEROphile.

 

Make mine a HERO by DoJ.

 

QM

 

P.S.: I love PRESENCE ATTACKS !!!

[OmegaSupreme]

Re: HERO for the GURPS gamer

 

Overall, HERO and GURPS are my two favorite gaming systems. From a setting perspective, GURPS crushes everything out there; you have books on everything from Aztecs to Vikings to Camelot, and everything in between. Mechanically, the two play very similarly, but GURPS tends to be more 'crunchy' - HERO plays faster I think, although GURPS gives a level of realism that I think HERO frankly lacks. As somebody who frequently uses GURPS for Special Ops and Historical roleplaying, where one bullet or a sword through the gut will kill you (and you want that level of realism and tension), HERO isn't generally lethal enough - I'm very eager to get my hands on Dark Champions to see if there's some mitigation for this In GURPS you have 10-12 health on average, and a good assault rifle can do multiple d6's of damage - it doesn't take long to see where this can go. In all fairness, I've never used HERO for a realistic campaign, but that's because GURPS shines so well there, and I like the staggering versatility in combat & skills/character-building options. This is partially due to GURPS overwhelming backlibrary of books, which can be extremely focused and exhaustively well-researched, as I'm sure most people in RPGing - GURPS fans or haters - will readily concede.

 

On the flip side, GURPS is horrendously numbers-intensive if you want to play a superhero game, and it is this genre where HERO outclasses GURPS (and everything else out there, if I may say so) by lightyears. When you have characters in GURPS being built with 295 strength, it gets cumbersome, and the rolls also reflect that. GURPS is fantastic for skill vs. skill roleplaying; two martial artists comparing skills and roll successes (how much you made by vs. how much he made by, compared to respective skills) can get pretty numbers intensive, too - but it's more realistic. HERO doesn't really have any conventions for that level of detail, so if you're a numbers junky, GURPS wins. That's certainly not to say HERO doesn't have plenty of rules variations, because from a simply cinematic context, HERO wins with all the rules options and shear comic-book thematic content. Realism is GURPS' forte, with potential movie-level cinematic content. But for shear comic-book role-playing, GURPS is ill-equipped, unless you *really* want to focus more on the character proper than the adventure and dice. At the very least, use GURPS books for inspiration for HERO characters.

 

As somebody mentioned earlier, the speed-based/initiative system is radically different, and makes for a very different combat experience. In this sense, HERO wins - the speed chart is quick and easy, and players always know when they're up. I think combat is overall much more *FUN* in HERO, but that's generally because it offers a more cinematic context. If you're focused more on the character - his abilities, history, quirks, personality, etc - and the world around him, use GURPS, which has the deepest character generation and setting depth in gaming. If you're more interested in the cinematic action or high-powered roleplaying (where powers basically define the character), use HERO, which has a certain flavor that GURPS completely lacks... but the two are similar enough that neither is completely foreign to the other (3d6 basic die mechanic being first and foremost). I find the two complementary, because each excels at something different.

 

In addition to the speed mechanic, the strength table in HERO is awesome. The combat mechanic isn't skill-based, but uses OCV vs. DCV, still basically using a 3d6 mechanic, but instead of rolling under skill level (plus/minus a hoarde of GURPS modifiers like range, position, weather, terrain, visibility, etc etc that are useful in certain campaigns ), you just add dice to your OCV, compare it to their DCV, and boom, you're there - quick and easy. You can add more to it than that if you want, but it never reaches the shear gut-punch level of grittiness that GURPS has from the get-go; the two systems are obvious cousins - however, they do feel very different in execution. It's like GURPS starts at the top in complexity and works down, whereas HERO starts at the bottom in complexity and works up.

 

So if you're into superhero gaming, or highly cinematic gaming, HERO is unbeatably versatile and player-friendly, with style and power variety to burn. On the other hand, if you prefer a grittier and more realistic, 'real-world' based campaign, and skill-based system, GURPS wins, IMO.

 

From a mechanical perspective, I'd be surprised to find anybody who was a big fan of one, and didn't really like the other. If you have GURPS and HERO, you don't need anything else, unless you really want a specific setting flavor (Star Wars RPG, Star Trek RPG, etc, which obviously capture their specific settings better than the somewhat generic GURPS & HERO systems). Likewise, I find d20/D&D horridly simplistic, and despise all things d20 - it's like role-playing for kindergarteners.

 

But being a GURPS and HERO fan, that's probably not surprising

[Greatwyrm]

Re: HERO for the GURPS gamer

 

With GURPS you have to learn a new mechanic for every addition. For HERO it's the same for EVERYTHING!!!

 

This was really the biggest thing that got me to go with HERO over GURPS. Some things in GURPS feel like bolted-on after thoughts (specifically Magic). HERO's internal consistancy was a big plus for me.

[Funksaw]

Re: HERO for the GURPS gamer

 

I'm beginning to get the point - I've oft compared GURPS to Linux - with the Kernel of Linux being a simple starting point (usually analagous to the really basic stuff in GURPS lite being the "kernel" and everything else in GURPS "tacked on.") It's very much like Linux, and I DO enjoy GURPS because of it's modularity - which I see as a feature, not a bug.

 

But there is something to be said for HERO's "designed, rather than modified" approach. It's the approach taken, for example, with the Berkeley System Distribution of Unix and it's progeny - one of which is the very nice MacOSX box I'm on right now.

 

And I'll admit that while I like GURPS because if, say, I design a system for magic, I can graft it in there pretty easily, if I don't HAVE to graft in a system for magic (I wanted a free-form system rather than listed spells in this example) then I'm willing to give up some modularity.

[GamePhil]

Re: HERO for the GURPS gamer

 

Actually, you can do that very easily in HERO. For me, more easily. Rather than creating a whole new set of rules, with potential balance and other issues, you simply come up with a high concept and design it in the system as given.

 

For example, say I want to create a spirit magic system. In GURPS, I might use GURPS Voodoo with some modifications, or perhaps come up with a new series of spells from scratch (each doing a slightly different then, but game-mechanics wise largely the same: see the Missile Spells, for example). Or, maybe, I might come up with a whole new system that uses the basic skills structure but doesn't really resemble any of the other rules.

 

In HERO, I decide on a list of Limitations (or Advantages) that are appropriate for my spirit magic system (for instance, I might have Requires A Skill Roll, Gestures, Incantations, and Extra Time). Then I come up with what the effects are: calling on a spirit to possess you for a time might be a Multiform, Summon can be used to bring spirits to you, Mental Powers can be used to influence them and gain information from them, and so on. By choosing Powers and Modifiers (and possibly Skills), I can create a whole new magical feel without creating a whole new mini-game.

[Funksaw]

Re: HERO for the GURPS gamer

 

So let's say I wanted a highly regimented magic system of effects with a completely free-form style of special effects (i.e, every wizard who knows how to conjure can conjure anything, anyone who knows how to create a blast can create a blast with anything, etc.) Could I do that?

 

What about if I wanted to have a magic system that worked better if the effect could be pulled off as coincidental, i.e., Mage the Ascension - but using the HERO VPP for the system? How might I go about doing that?

 

Could you - as examples - post a number of different ways people have used the HERO system for different psionic or magical campaigns, you know, to show variety?

[Jhamin]

Re: HERO for the GURPS gamer

 

Fantasy hero actually goes into a fair amount of detail on how to create a magic system by bending the Hero rules. And it still manages to not add any new rules while doing it.

 

There were also several example systems to get you started. The one that showed up in the Turakin Age setting (And Grimore I and II) is only one of them.

 

 

But to answer your question, let's tackle one of your example systems.

 

One possible approach:

In a Regimented system with free-form effects, you barely need rules at all. If you know how to summon you can summon anything, than you don't buy it as a power at all, you just declare it a perk and set the value at how awesome you expect this to be. Some have the perk (aka ability) to summon, some do not.

Your mage buys Perk: Summoner and is now calling up Thor to deal with those noisy neighbors.

 

Another Approach:

If you want it to be free form but somewhat limited buy a variable power pool only to buy summoning effects. You are limited in your ability to summon by how many points you can pull out of your pool. This is useful if masters and students have different levels of ability. If you want to get more complicated buy a separate pool for each area of power you have. If you use an effect that combines areas, you can combine pools.

 

Yet another Approach:

There are only so many kinds of spells in the world. You can use some but not others. Mages pay for the ability to try spells from one area or another by buying a skill in that school of magic.

The actual spells are thought up on the fly and you make a roll in the appropriate skill with a penalty based on the active point cost of the spell involved. (This is alot like the Turaking Age system but you make up the spells as you go rather than paying character points ahead of time).

 

 

Hero system really shines when you want to be able to do anything but still want to have rules for how much it should cost or how powerful a summoning spell is relative to an flame blast. True "anything goes" magic will require that your players be pretty familiar with the system to avoid bogging down play, but then that was my experience with Mage as well.

 

On the other hand, I have always found that "anything goes" magic is actually pretty unsatisfying to play as it all ends up feeling like Player Fiat rather than actual magic. You are better off defining some scarcity that has to be dealt with in order to cast magic.

As an example:

All spells are bought with points just before you cast them. There are a standard set of limits, as well as any you add at the time of casting. In total you limit powers enough that the final cost goes down to 5-10 points for most spells.All spells are bought with Charges that never recover. Many spells even have only one charge, and once you use them the points are gone forever. You can buy the spells normally with experience or with special "magic points" (see below).

If you have magic you are loath to use it, but you don't have to define the spells until you need them so you are only limited by your knowledge of magical theory (defined with perks or skill rolls). You can do anyting you want as long as your reserve of power is still big enough.

 

Here is where it gets fun: You get 1 magic point each night you perform a ritual at a specific place, or 5 points if you read a new book of magical lore, or you get a number of points equal to the ego of a sacrificial victim on the night of a full moon….. Double during an equinox.

And so on.

[GamePhil]

Re: HERO for the GURPS gamer

 

All right, a lot of what you are requesting information on is usually done using a construct called a Variable Power Pool, which is not actually in Sidekick. What it basically does is allows you to use any power costing a certain number of points or less, within reason and GM's tolerance. I'll try to present some alternatives to that.

 

So let's say I wanted a highly regimented magic system of effects with a completely free-form style of special effects (i.e, every wizard who knows how to conjure can conjure anything, anyone who knows how to create a blast can create a blast with anything, etc.) Could I do that?

 

While Jhamin does present appropriate alternatives, I tend to the Variable Pool (VPP for short), especially for purposes of this discussion. Any system will allow you to simply say "characters of this type can do this arbitrary thing". One advantage of HERO is that you can do it without it being arbitrary.

 

With Sidekick only, I'd do the following:

 

For the conjurer, there are several abilities missing from the Sidekick rules that would actually make this easy (specifically, Summon and Usable As Attack are not there). So, rather than being able to conjure the creature you want directly, you would decide what benefits it would give you and buy those. For example, summoning Thor to create a storm would be Change Environment, summoning a troll to claw an opponent would be a Ranged Killing Attack, and so on.

 

The blaster is a bit simpler: buy a Multipower with a suite of attacks in it, each with a different special effect and Advantages and Limitations appropriate to that special effect. You can cover all of the Missile and Jet spells out of GURPS, which is pretty broad, with only a few dozen slots, and the slots themselves are pretty cheap.

 

What about if I wanted to have a magic system that worked better if the effect could be pulled off as coincidental, i.e., Mage the Ascension - but using the HERO VPP for the system? How might I go about doing that?

 

The way I designed Mage magic was as follows (I will use the term magick to describe this, though I tend to avoid it normally):

 

Magick: 60 point VPP, Side Effects if not "Coincidental".

 

Naked Advantage on VPP: Invisible Power Effects, Only If Spell Is "Coincidental".

 

With Sidekick only, I'd once again buy a Multipower with a suite of Powers to represent rotes the character commonly uses. I'd then buy the Power skill for Magick to cover the little variances that might come up in play (this is, for me, an acceptable level of arbitrariness). I'd buy each slot with Invisible Power Effects, but limit it so that it is not Invisible if Vulgar, and give the whole thing Side Effects if it was Vulgar.

 

The Paradox thing I'd probably buy as Transform: Mage into Mage with Paradox Flaw.

 

If I wanted the magick to actually be more powerful when coincidental, I'd just buy a little more power that could only be used if not vulgar.

 

Could you - as examples - post a number of different ways people have used the HERO system for different psionic or magical campaigns, you know, to show variety?

 

I've developed the D&D system of magic in HERO. I bought a series of powers (or a Variable Power Pool) that were fed by an Endurance Reserve (not in Sidekick) that was, itself, heavily Limited. It (the END Reserve) could not Recover unless the wizard was studying, and all END had to be "pre-spent" as it was recovered. So, I get back 21 END after studying my spell books, apply 3 of it to my Spider Climbing, 9 to a Fireball, and another 9 to a Sleep spell (which is not "1st level" in HERO, probably as it should be).

 

I have been toying with an elemental magic system for one of my campaigns. It is similar somewhat to Mage in that it presents a series of elements that can be combined in various ways to get different effects. Characters can buy Skills for either primary Elements (Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Metal, Wood, and Void), or the secondary Elements that are combinations of these (Water Affects Earth becomes Time, if I'm remembering correctly). There is also a Martial Art based around the same system. Spells will probably be bought individually, though I might allow a Variable Pool with many Limitations.

[Funksaw]

Re: HERO for the GURPS gamer

 

It seems to me that the problem with most of those - including the VPP stuff - is that you either as GM have to define each "spell" beforehand, OR the players have to do that during play (which creates a hassle.) Is there any way for a character to *not* have to do *any* math with a spell?

 

Let me get more specific - ripping off ideas from Children of the Sun. COTS has a very specific magic system - you can cast on the fly but the spells themselves are organized into primary and secondary pillars. (I think these would work well with HERO, actually)

 

Primary pillars are Body, Energy, Matter, and Mind (you can see why I think they'd sync up well with HERO) Secondary pillars are Alteration, Corruption, Control, Creation, Decay, Harmony, Life, and War.

 

In order to cast a spell, a character chooses a primary and secondary pillar - within reason, he should be able to do nearly any effect that would be governered by those pillars.

 

Now, Hero already *has* an advantage called "Alter" I believe - same with Decay. I'm sure I could shoehorn in, or take out, other advantages to correspond to the secondary pillars - but I want to be able to change the *target* on a whim (frex, Decay could be used on someone's mind as an EGO attack or on someone's Body, or even to rot wood) and I want to be able to change special effects on a whim. I'd also like to be able to have a system where you only need to buy, say, Alter once, and then add Body, Energy, Matter, or Mind as Advantages onto that power...

 

I hope you see where I'm going with this - and why I might find it a bit complicated especially with comparison to Tri-Stat's Dynamic Sorcery or Power Flux (which is VPP, just with simpler numbers to juggle.)

 

Actually - that's a good question, is there anything like a "Dynamic Sorcery" power in HERO that I can use?

[GamePhil]

Re: HERO for the GURPS gamer

 

Sure. At that point, you just do as Jhamin initially suggested: define a set of skills or other abilities that allow access to magic, then define those effects as you will. So, for example, in the elemental magic I was describing, each of the elements is simply a skill, rather than skills that Powers require to be used.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: HERO for the GURPS gamer

 

I was on vacation when this thread went around the first time; may be a dead issue, but thought Id respond anyway.

 

So let's say I wanted a highly regimented magic system of effects with a completely free-form style of special effects (i.e' date=' every wizard who knows how to conjure can conjure anything, anyone who knows how to create a blast can create a blast with anything, etc.) Could I do that?[/quote']

Yes you can. A system like that might be oriented around Base Powers and make heavy use of Variable Power Effects, Variable SFX, and Expanded Effects (on certain Powers) to allow open-ended Magic with a minimum of distinct Powers.

 

Want to Summon anything? Take Summon and apply the "Summon Anything" expansion. Want to project whatever kind of blast? Take EB and apply Variable SFX and Variable Advantage.

 

Such as system would result in expensive Powers, but you could also mandate that a specific Power Framework must be used as well, in this case either a Multipower or an Elemental Control. This cuts the cost quite a bit.

 

What about if I wanted to have a magic system that worked better if the effect could be pulled off as coincidental, i.e., Mage the Ascension - but using the HERO VPP for the system? How might I go about doing that?

 

Make such a Magic System based on Requires a Skill Roll. Have a Skill Roll for each "Sphere". Define what kind of effects fall under which Skill/Sphere. Effects that require two or more Spheres use the modifier of the RSR Limitation for Multiple Skill Rolls; this results in a bigger Limitation value.

 

As the GM you define standard Skill Modifiers that are applicable to this type of Skill use. You simple state that pulling off an effect that can be explained away "coincidentally" results in a bonus to the Skill Roll of a value ranging from +1 to +5 depending upon how "coincidental" the effect really is. Other modifiers might be casting with no "sleepers/mundanes/muggles/whatever you want to call them" around results in a bonus -- or perhaps thats the assumed default and casting with them around results in a penalty. Being in ones Sanctum Sanctorum might grant a bonus as well, and so on.

 

You're solid.

 

 

Alternately check out the Gift system in Fantasy HERO. It's somewhat friendly to the Ars Magica/Mage the Ascension models.

 

Could you - as examples - post a number of different ways people have used the HERO system for different psionic or magical campaigns, you know, to show variety?

 

 

Here are a collection of various Magic Systems that I have done with the HERO System. I have several more just waiting to be typed up as well. Designing Magic Systems in the HERO System is really very easy to do, and pretty fun as well IMO