Katherine Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 From reading around a bit on here the two big names I see coming up with this Iron Age thing are Ultimates and The Authority. Could I get a comparison between the two? How are they alike and how are the different? I'm a fan of traditional comic (not sure what "Age" it would be) which I would I be more likely to enjoy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Toki Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority From reading around a bit on here the two big names I see coming up with this Iron Age thing are Ultimates and The Authority. Could I get a comparison between the two? How are they alike and how are the different? I'm a fan of traditional comic (not sure what "Age" it would be) which I would I be more likely to enjoy? Define "Traditional Comic"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority Well, the Ultimates is basically kind of an Iron Age version of the Avengers, while the Authority is kind of an Iron Age version of the JLA, albeit with different characters and fewer qualms about using force, and using their powers to make big changes to the society they "protect". I suspect you'd probably enjoy the Ultimates more than the Authority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katherine Posted August 17, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority Define "Traditional Comic"... Justice League, Avengers, Thunderbolts, that sort of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil Toki Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority Yeah I agree check out Ultimates... having read it, you might enjoy it... I adore its grittier style... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimpira Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority The Ultimates have been very good but I have to admit that I still prefer the first 12 issues of Authority. After the first twelve the writer and artist left the book as they really told the stories they wanted to tell. The artist on the Ultimates is the same guy, Bryan Hitch, that worked on the first 12 issues of Authority. My favorite bit in Authority is when the Engineer landed on the moon and was amazed by that fact. She had been to different dimensions, fought off a nation of supervillians (think mini superman's) and has replaced all her blood with nanotechnology but the simply fact of being the first woman on the moon as she looked up at earth still amazed her. It showed a deeply human side to her. The relationship between Apollo and Midnighter seemed tender as well. You could tell that these two men were deeply in love with one another. after the first twelve I would not bother as it took a big turn and the characters all of a sudden just cared about getting drunk, having sex and making really crude jokes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority The biggest difference is that Ultimates is "Stainless Steel" Iron Age, while Authority post-Ellis is "Rusted-Over Wrought Iron Sewer Grate" Iron Age. Re: Ellis period, while it was definitely the best, some elements of it don't sit well with me. Mainly, the idea that somehow, the UN is actually a force for good, when Ellis spent a few dozen issues of Stormwatch showing that the UN was just a big, corrupt meeting house for the evil governments of the world ( which is all of them ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimpira Posted August 17, 2004 Report Share Posted August 17, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority I never saw Ellis say that they were a force for 'good' in his universe. Jenny Sparks just showed up to get King and Trelaine on her side to run interference with the UN. If they believed that The Authority needed information from them (information that they indeed did not need), then the UN would believe that they had some form of leverage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority I was thinking more there sending the Gamorran tech to the UN, and expecting that to mean better things than letting a single nation get their hands on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority Well, that could also have been because sending it to any single nation would have been an invitation to have the US government and its International Ops department just screw said nation out of it... and those guys were crooked as crap. So she went it to the UN, as it was IO's only remotely viable counterpart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority The biggest difference is that Ultimates is "Stainless Steel" Iron Age, while Authority post-Ellis is "Rusted-Over Wrought Iron Sewer Grate" Iron Age. Re: Ellis period, while it was definitely the best, some elements of it don't sit well with me. Mainly, the idea that somehow, the UN is actually a force for good, when Ellis spent a few dozen issues of Stormwatch showing that the UN was just a big, corrupt meeting house for the evil governments of the world ( which is all of them ). Perhaps the UN's "Joint Corruption" is preferable to any one Nation's "Individual Corruption"? very cynical... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rene Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority The biggest difference is that Ultimates is "Stainless Steel" Iron Age' date=' while Authority post-Ellis is "Rusted-Over Wrought Iron Sewer Grate" Iron Age.[/quote'] That is a fine way of putting it. I think the characters in "Ultimates" have more depth. Even if some of them are, on a personal scale, less heroic than those in "the Authority". Basically Banner and Pym do bad things because they have insecurities, while the Authority never has a moment of insecurity. The Ultimates is a bit more realistic too. The heroes are much weaker, they take some falls, they aren't always right, they disagree among themselves, etc. The Authority, for all it's ultra-violence and diesel-powered sodomy, is surprisingly "Superfriends-like" in that the heroes all love each other (sometimes carnally) and they never lose (with one exception) and never put their feet wrong and all are mega-hyper-super-powerful. Oh yes, the US government in the Ultimates also isn't any more evil than the real world version. Some would say that that is still pretty evil, though. One "gritty" supergroup comic folks who are leery of immoral heroes might like better is "Supreme Power". The characters are flawed, but basically sympathetic and don't reach the extremes of ultra-violence you see in the Authority and Ultimates (with the exception of the Princess killing that old lady to use the life-energy as rejuvenating juice). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority Well, that could also have been because sending it to any single nation would have been an invitation to have the US government and its International Ops department just screw said nation out of it... and those guys were crooked as crap. So she went it to the UN, as it was IO's only remotely viable counterpart. Yeah, but how is the UN any better than the IO?? I mean, hell, IIRC, it was the UN ( well, the G7 countries that "actually" controlled it ) that sicced Seth on the Authority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority Thus proving that even in her final year of life, they were *still* having Jenny Sparks trust 'too much' and hope 'too much', and *still* spitting on her for daring to be anything other than a totally cold-blooded superbitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bblackmoor Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority The biggest difference is that Ultimates is "Stainless Steel" Iron Age' date=' while Authority post-Ellis is "Rusted-Over Wrought Iron Sewer Grate" Iron Age.[/quote'] It might be more useful if people tried to be a wee, little, tiny bit less self-indulgent with their criticism. Or, barring that, stick to describing the comics that you actually like. People who despise something so completely are not usually the best sources of information about it. Just a suggestion.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckg Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority Oh, and restricting the right to comment about something only to those people who like it *won't* give a slanted impression? Personally attacking the critic and uttering any variation of "If you don't like it, then stop talking about it" should both be regarded as Official Internet Signs Of Admitting That You Have No Other Possible Defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority It might be more useful if people tried to be a wee, little, tiny bit less self-indulgent with their criticism. Or, barring that, stick to describing the comics that you actually like. People who despise something so completely are not usually the best sources of information about it. Just a suggestion.... It does help balance out the glowing praise of the comics flawlessness you get from the fans. Such as how they are some of the only legitimate heros in comics, etc etc. I don't here you telling people to turn down the gushing praise so why can't people voice their dislike? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority If only the people who like a comic are asked their opinions, than Youngblood and Extreme Justice are apparently notably above average works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bblackmoor Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority Did everyone just skip the first sentence? Oh, well. Nevermind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority Did everyone just skip the first sentence? Oh, well. Nevermind. Could you please be a little bit more condescending? I'm not quite getting the message here. Really, what gives with you telling people what the can and cannot post? If you don't like people's posts, don't read them. That is what Ignore is for, you know. Nobody died and made you king of the Hero boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorItron Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority To get back to Katherine's original post that, in part, asked what "Iron Age" meant: Iron Age comics tend to be grittier than older, traditional (i.e Superman) comics. There's more violence and the heroes have more personality flaws. There are varying stages of Iron, though. To compare some other comics: Superman, Spiderman, Fantastic Four: Traditional. Batman, X-Men: Mix of traditional and Iron, depending on who is doing the writing. The Punisher: Iron Age. I've read ~15 issues of The Ultimates. In my opinion, it's well written and the characters are fairly well developed. There's a strong sense of continuity in the stories. The main reason why I haven't read more is that some of the characters have personalities that are too dark for my comics tastes. I love it in a Quentin Tarantino movie, but I don't want it in my comics. Your opinion may differ - I suggest you read some recent issues to give it a fair check. I've only browsed a few Authority issues. The characters don't seem as interesting as The Ultimates. As a group, they have virtually unstoppable power - nothing challenges them. 2 characters are in a homosexual relationship - I'm not offended or anything, but it doesn't seem well written and borders on gratuitous, as if the writer was trying too hard to be trendy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby_Nagai Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority I've been following the Ultimates because I was a long-time Marvel fan who gave up because I thought Marvel comics were starting to wallow in thier continuity, and I saw the Ultimate line as a fresh start. On the other hand I've so far avoided the Authority title because everything I've read or heard about it (including Stormwatch issues building up to it) told me that it was taking a "postmodern" approach to superheroes. I'll be the first to admit that in recreating the Avengers characters Ultimates has a somewhat postmodern slant (Cap's new rough edges, Henry Pym's violent episodes, Bruce Banner's "addiction" to being the Hulk), but this comes across as a byproduct of updating the characters. My limited exposure to the Authority, on the other hand, leaves me with an unshakeable impression that it's specifically created with a postmodern perspective in mind. In case you don't know the term, "postmodern" is a hard concept to define, but too often it means that authors are going to spite all the tropes and cliches readers have come to expect. The problem is that the superhero genre has always been blatantly defined by it's cliche's, and attacking those cliche's generally amounts to insulting anyone interested in reading about superheroes in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimpira Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority Actually I think that The Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns attacked those cliches. But I am not going to try and dissuade you from your opinion. I liked the Authority when it was written by Ellis because it was not supposed to go past 12 issues. Not his vision at any rate. Sometimes...Heck a lot of times, things should end but the fans will not let it. Personally, I felt that the X-men jumped the shark when they moved to Australia and I stopped buying it. What I do find interesting is that the Authority that I hate is written by the same man that writes the Ultimates that I like. Oh, yes. Mark Millar wrote for both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby_Nagai Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority Actually I think that The Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns attacked those cliches.Yep, Miller definately created a world that attacked superhero cliche's from every angle, he even provided Joker's camera-loving shrink as a mouthpiece for that attitude, but he then went on to write about two superheroes (Batman and Superman) who were struggling to live up the ideals they used to define themselves. I've avoided Authority so far because I'm convinced it has a much more one-sided view of the superhero genre than what we saw in TDKR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimpira Posted August 18, 2004 Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Re: Ultimate vs The Authority Yep' date=' Miller definately created a world that attacked superhero cliche's from every angle, he even provided Joker's camera-loving shrink as a mouthpiece for that attitude, but he then went on to write about two superheroes (Batman and Superman) who were struggling to live up the ideals they used to define themselves. I've avoided Authority so far because I'm convinced it has a much more one-sided view of the superhero genre than what we saw in TDKR.[/quote'] Well, I am not sure what to say. I would tend to agree with you not to pick up The Authority. For one year I was happy. Twelve lovely months. Now I can not pick up the second trade because it has issues 13 - 16 in them. Heck, the first 12 may not be to your liking either, although, I felt that he was not actively bashing the superhero genre in the book (outside of the book is another matter). I still like Warren Ellis on Planetary whenever that comes out. I think that Supreme Power is a fine book as well. I read Sleeper and I will dearly miss Joe Casey's Wildcats. I am hooked on Robert Kirkman's Invincible (a book that constantly surprises me and that is not something I have said in a long time). I buy anything that has Bill Willingham's name on it, because he is the man that gave me The Elementals (and The Island of Doctor Apocalypse from V & V). I will give Authority another chance when Ed Brubaker takes over. I tend to follow writers and not titles. But it sounds like you might give these books a pass as well. And you know what? That is perfectly cool. Sometimes we get protective of what we love and miss the idea of just trying to pass it on like a gift. A gift that can be refused. You read what you like. I am now going to go and start a thread about comics that people would like to recommend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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