[4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

[zornwil]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

I think the fact that the actual heroes who take on such an immense task are generally extremely underqualified to actually run the world' date=' plays a big part in the usual breakdown of such schemes...[/quote']

However, I think often the point is that nobody is qualified for that, "not even" superheroes.

[Kirby]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

All right' date=' I'd like those that dislike the Iron Age style to post their reasons here.[/quote']

This is my first post here, so please bear with me.

 

I've stopped reading comics since they were about $1.25 for a high-end one (maybe $1.50). My favorite was the $0.75 Hawkman because he was my favorite (I mean, come on, he flew and fought crime with his wife! And he used ancient weapons!). So this era is more the style that I liked, but I do like 4-color (or, "8-color," as I like to run in my Champions game). I like the generally clear-cut good & bad in my reading entertainment from comics. I liked that even attractive women wore decent costumes. I liked that heroes had moral and ethical guidelines that they lived by. Heroes (and the writers) respected churches and synogogues.

 

I really stopped reading comics in the time when Spawn came out. It was to me the worst ideal you could give a character and sell it as a comic. And it really bugged me to see young kids (say 8-12 years of age) come in and buy them because of how cool the fight scenes and explosions, etc. looked. Roughly when Spawn came out, is when I noticed that many comics started going more for style than substance. With Spawn I saw the emergence of third party comics (like Dark Horse, among others) start coming into the forefront with series that I thought were unworthy. I noticed that more of the characters if male were becoming bulkier and deadlier, while the females were become bigger breasted and smaller costumes. I don't know what the comic was called, but I remember one where a "hero" in it just finished having sex with some girl that he then kicked out of his apartment and the team he was on was one that didn't have reoccurring villains because they were all killed off. It is during this time and other comics that followed that the "heroes" had less and less moral & ethical guidelines and a lot of team friction; he only reason they were the "good" guys is because the comic was about them, or so it seemed.

 

Four color comics seem to be like the original Star Wars trilogy, while the Iron Age ones seem to be a cross between being worse than the Star Wars prequels, mixed with Vin Diesel movies, and teen agnst/gratuitous sex "no substance, just attempted style" movies.

[RDU Neil]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

"New generation" young rebel superhumans are mostly shown as immature spoiled brats; their viewpoint and reasons are almost never given a decent light.

 

This is a good point... and it is a flaw in the book. Chalk it up to Waid being a rather traditional fan boy at heart... as most of the good plot elements of this book came from Alex Ross... and Waid just fleshed it out, adding the moralistic preaching that was so heavy handed.

 

As for Supes not killing... well I think it was appropriate for the character and the event. As for legal action... in such epic scale events it is AT LEAST as much a deciding factor as say, oh, kneejerk, destructive, angry revenge that you seem to feel is appropriate. For any revolution to succeed, or any system at all... there has to be a point of "enough." Western capitalism as practiced in the US cracks under those who have no sense of "enough." (Enron... Worldcom anyone?) and socialist revolutions utterly collapsed with the excesses (Stalin? Maoist china?) Superman said, "enough" at the appropriate moment... IMO.

[nexus]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

This is a good point... and it is a flaw in the book. Chalk it up to Waid being a rather traditional fan boy at heart... as most of the good plot elements of this book came from Alex Ross... and Waid just fleshed it out, adding the moralistic preaching that was so heavy handed.

 

As for Supes not killing... well I think it was appropriate for the character and the event. As for legal action... in such epic scale events it is AT LEAST as much a deciding factor as say, oh, kneejerk, destructive, angry revenge that you seem to feel is appropriate. For any revolution to succeed, or any system at all... there has to be a point of "enough." Western capitalism as practiced in the US cracks under those who have no sense of "enough." (Enron... Worldcom anyone?) and socialist revolutions utterly collapsed with the excesses (Stalin? Maoist china?) Superman said, "enough" at the appropriate moment... IMO.

 

repped.

[Brandi]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

Anyone have a site with an example of their work? I'd really like to see this for myself./

 

10 Sal Buscema Covers

 

Herb Trimpe covers

 

Trimpe's biggest sin may be trying to emulate Jack Kirby's exaggerated perspective, and not doing it very well (in fact, there's definitely some problems in this Nick Fury cover), but really, nobody's come close to Liefeld for raw pain.

[David Blue]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

Kirby: " I really stopped reading comics in the time when Spawn came out. It was to me the worst ideal you could give a character and sell it as a comic."

 

Spawn started out as a dubious idea, and later went downhill.

 

A lot of the Iron Age is about shock value and being radical. The temptation is always there, if you haven't topped yourself in a while, to push ahead and be extra-wild/cool/shocking/radical.

 

A sub-genre that includes a standing invitation to the writer and the protagonist to do extremely serious things for ephemeral, trivial motives is flawed.

[Wanderer]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

As for Supes not killing... well I think it was appropriate for the character and the event. As for legal action... in such epic scale events it is AT LEAST as much a deciding factor as say, oh, kneejerk, destructive, angry revenge that you seem to feel is appropriate. For any revolution to succeed, or any system at all... there has to be a point of "enough." Western capitalism as practiced in the US cracks under those who have no sense of "enough." (Enron... Worldcom anyone?) and socialist revolutions utterly collapsed with the excesses (Stalin? Maoist china?) Superman said, "enough" at the appropriate moment... IMO.

 

Appropriate for the character, maybe, not for the event. After all, Supes is a character consistently shown with a psychotic horror of taking life and breaking the law (for those who are shocked by the adjective, I'm thinking of the miniseries where Joker has got godlike powers and is moments from crumbling universe to nothingness, Supes is the only one left (including other cosmic entities) to fight, and Joker is blatantly unconsciously begging him to kill since the murderous clown can't stop himself, and yet he will not take a life, even to save All That Is; this is the scene that IMO forever nailed the coffin of disgust for the blue boyscout and all his system of values).

 

As for the event, in all the moralizing preaching that has gone on through the miniseries, it is a serious false note. After all that talking about crimes and responsibilities, the responsibles of exterminating thousands of superhumans, many of them were just fighting to regain their stolen freedom, essentially an act of genocide, are allowed to walk away scot-free, in the name of what?? Having the technical legal authority to order an ununecessary extermination ? poor normals, being power-disadvantaged, having right to kill to assuage their fears and eling of inadequacy? Young generation superhumans, having been shown as immature brats, is right kill them without a tear? There's a place for paradon and reconciliation, *after* basic justice and retribution has been served, and that includes the U.N. secretary and their cronies, not just the conspirators (at the very, very least show them doing inmate community service along with Luthor & Co.,), or only metahuman criminals and traditional "supervillains" are worth punishment? Again, the reeking hypocrisy at the core of the four-color system of values.

 

As for killing them as an apparent act of revenge, in hot blood, well that's the only plausible way a character like Supes, with its psychotic fears of taking life and breaking law, could have been brought to administer summary justice on a lawfully-empowered butcher like U.N. Secretary and his cronies. More sensible metahumans, like the "new generation" young ones, wouldn't have hesitated a moment, but look they were all exterminated by the nuke, leaving only the Four-Color fossils and their hollow values and fearful and envious and genocidal normals to inherit the earth... Bleah :

 

In summation, enough is excellent... after basic justice has been served. Shot the dictator and the chief of secret police, then talk about future and reconciliation.

[Brandi]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

I'm beginning to think what it comes down to for me with regards to Iron vs. Silver Age is: what happens when they fail?

 

Bad Silver Age comics tend to be silly, childish, and irrelevant (Super-Heroes Battle Super-Gorillas! comes to mind; I'd've used Cheeks' Silver Age pages but all his graphics are gone).

 

Bad Iron Age comics tend to be squalid, nasty, and brutal (QuarterBin's review of Bloodstrike #5 and Crimson Plague cover this nicely).

 

On the whole, I can handle silly much better than squalid, thanks.

[RDU Neil]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

I'm beginning to think what it comes down to for me with regards to Iron vs. Silver Age is: what happens when they fail?

 

Bad Silver Age comics tend to be silly, childish, and irrelevant (Super-Heroes Battle Super-Gorillas! comes to mind; I'd've used Cheeks' Silver Age pages but all his graphics are gone).

 

Bad Iron Age comics tend to be squalid, nasty, and brutal (QuarterBin's review of Bloodstrike #5 and Crimson Plague cover this nicely).

 

On the whole, I can handle silly much better than squalid, thanks.

 

Good points... I just fall on the other side of things. Silly drives me CRAZY! Silly annoys the hell outta me. I'd prefer squalid, anyday. Squalid can at least be dramatic... silly is just a distraction... humor at best... mostly stupidity.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

Good points... I just fall on the other side of things. Silly drives me CRAZY! Silly annoys the hell outta me. I'd prefer squalid' date=' anyday. Squalid can at least be dramatic... silly is just a distraction... humor at best... mostly stupidity.[/quote']

 

I'm more with brandi, sqaulid annoys me, and I don't want to deal with brutality - the possible drama just isn't worth it. I want my Heroes to Heroic dang it - with a capital H. I really don't care about what might it be really like if someone has powers, and the consequences of using them.

 

I want a good yarn where good triumphs over evil - every time.

 

Hence my avoidence of Iron Age in general.

[nexus]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

I'm more with wanderer, sqaulid annoys me, and I don't want to deal with brutality - the possible drama just isn't worth it. I want my Heroes to Heroic dang it - with a capital H. I really don't care about what might it be really like if someone has powers, and the consequences of using them.

 

I want a good yarn where good triumphs over evil - every time.

 

Hence my avoidence of Iron Age in general.

 

Are you sure you meant "Wanderer"?

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

Are you sure you meant "Wanderer"?

 

Thanks for the catch. I scrolled up one too far.

[nexus]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

Thanks for the catch. I scrolled up one too far.

 

No problem. though I probably should have PM'ed you. I'm sorry.

[zornwil]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

Squalid/silly, I like and dislike both to similar degrees.

 

BTW, I do think Preacher is good Iron Age work, even though I know many of you gag over it.

[Kirby]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

BTW' date=' I do think Preacher is good Iron Age work, even though I know many of you gag over it.[/quote']

 

 

 

Just kidding! I don't even know what Preacher is, I just wanted to put the smilies up.

[zornwil]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

 

 

 

Just kidding! I don't even know what Preacher is, I just wanted to put the smilies up.

Ha, well, it was pretty brutal, earthy, and sometimes (others might say frequently) gratuitous. But I think it all worked in the context and I think it was a good story.

 

Anyway, I really think many people have exactly the reaction you gave.

[OddHat]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

Squalid/silly, I like and dislike both to similar degrees.

 

BTW, I do think Preacher is good Iron Age work, even though I know many of you gag over it.

 

There were a lot of Iron Age titles I thought were utter garbage, and others that had just enough skill behind them to deeply offend (Veitch). Still, almost anything by Ellis, Moore, or Gainman is worth reading, and some of their best work is either Iron Age or "Alloy Age". Astro City is incredible, but Busiek has credited some Iron Age writers and stories as being part of his inspiration for that series.

 

I do want my Heroes to be Heroes, but I also want them to be human, and I want their world to make internal sense. The best Iron Age stories managed that in ways that, IMO, matched or surpassed the best Bronze or Silver.

 

However, I'm also a fan of comedy and melodrama, and Silver and Bronze were great for those.

[zornwil]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

A note upon thinking about this thread - at the end of the day, a lot of our preferences revolve around our world views and how we see entertainment's role relative to that (foster good values, escapism, reflect reality, etc.). My tastes are somewhat broad in story-telling as my values in terms of entertainment's role is very broad (I enjoy high brow conceptual art, dada, and bubblegum sorts of pop music all fairly equally) and my world view is both very negative and positive in mix. My personal stronger prejudices are more visual - I have an extremely hard time relating to manga/anime because the visual style simply can't "reach" me, my Western prejudices in this regard are too strong. Similarly, I really had a hard time getting through From Hell because Campbell's artwork was too much of a hybrid of meticulous detail, scratchiness, and distortion for me to appreciate - I need artwork to have a certain coherency which his particular combo lacked for me (and to be fair was deliberate for this setting and well-done even if I just plain dislike it).

 

So we have to be very careful in assessing the artwork and storylines against our own prejudices and trying to determine where our prejudice overwhelms a more objective sort of judgement. All the same, I don't mean that you can't simply say "I hate..." whatever. I just think one has to be careful about the subsequent condemnation of the artist - are we uncomfortable just because the artist offends our personal preferences or are we uncomfortable because (to me much more importantly) the artist is ineffective in their task and/or their task itself is somehow of little or no value (which of course can be but is even harder to judge than craft).

[zornwil]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

There were a lot of Iron Age titles I thought were utter garbage, and others that had just enough skill behind them to deeply offend (Veitch). Still, almost anything by Ellis, Moore, or Gainman is worth reading, and some of their best work is either Iron Age or "Alloy Age". Astro City is incredible, but Busiek has credited some Iron Age writers and stories as being part of his inspiration for that series.

 

I do want my Heroes to be Heroes, but I also want them to be human, and I want their world to make internal sense. The best Iron Age stories managed that in ways that, IMO, matched or surpassed the best Bronze or Silver.

 

However, I'm also a fan of comedy and melodrama, and Silver and Bronze were great for those.

I'm about to crack the Astro City collection Family Album and will let you know if I still feel this way (I kinda do from havng glimpsed into it), but all the comments I've heard suggest to me that Astro City is a sort of Silver/Iron hybrid.

 

Personally, I really intensely dislike that we call these "Gold, Silver, Bronze, Iron" ages because we're talking about a mere 70 (roughly) year period here and us breaking that down this way is such a narrow view and so poor in terms of how those terms for ages are normally applied in cultural history. But I recognize that it's a strong vernacular and I can't really hope to change that even if I were to try to somehow come up with new terms and put them in every message I posted or sent to someone.

[OddHat]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

I'm about to crack the Astro City collection Family Album and will let you know if I still feel this way (I kinda do from havng glimpsed into it), but all the comments I've heard suggest to me that Astro City is a sort of Silver/Iron hybrid.

 

Personally, I really intensely dislike that we call these "Gold, Silver, Bronze, Iron" ages because we're talking about a mere 70 (roughly) year period here and us breaking that down this way is such a narrow view and so poor in terms of how those terms for ages are normally applied in cultural history. But I recognize that it's a strong vernacular and I can't really hope to change that even if I were to try to somehow come up with new terms and put them in every message I posted or sent to someone.

 

Tarnished Angels was my favorite Astro City collection. A wonderful, noir look at the lives of Black Masks, just a touch of the absurd to make the whole thing work. A great blend of Slver, Bronze and Iron. However, I ama aware that other Astro City fan have their own favorites.

 

The story of the cartoon lion (forget which Astro City book that was in) was a great piece of Silver Age goofiness looked at from an Iron point of view.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

I'm about to crack the Astro City collection Family Album and will let you know if I still feel this way (I kinda do from havng glimpsed into it), but all the comments I've heard suggest to me that Astro City is a sort of Silver/Iron hybrid.

 

Personally, I really intensely dislike that we call these "Gold, Silver, Bronze, Iron" ages because we're talking about a mere 70 (roughly) year period here and us breaking that down this way is such a narrow view and so poor in terms of how those terms for ages are normally applied in cultural history. But I recognize that it's a strong vernacular and I can't really hope to change that even if I were to try to somehow come up with new terms and put them in every message I posted or sent to someone.

 

Well then I will irritate you and add another "Age" for ya - Astro City and a lot what is going on in DC, especially Geoff Johns' stuff I see refered to as either "Neosilver" or "Gilded Iron" because it takes the intense personal drama and consequences of action that are the hallmark of good Iron Age, but the Heroes, at the end, are Heroes with a capital H, and good guys are the good guys, not bad guys taking on worse guys.

 

And to be honest, I do find a lot of classic Silver just a little silly, but the Neosilver is almost exactly what I have doin in my Champions campaign for the last 15 years.

[zornwil]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

Well then I will irritate you and add another "Age" for ya - Astro City and a lot what is going on in DC, especially Geoff Johns' stuff I see refered to as either "Neosilver" or "Gilded Iron" because it takes the intense personal drama and consequences of action that are the hallmark of good Iron Age, but the Heroes, at the end, are Heroes with a capital H, and good guys are the good guys, not bad guys taking on worse guys.

 

And to be honest, I do find a lot of classic Silver just a little silly, but the Neosilver is almost exactly what I have doin in my Champions campaign for the last 15 years.

Yeah, I would tend to call my campaign stuff more in the "Neosilver" vein than probably any other "age" - to use your evil terminology!

 

PS - though my players have reported much more of a hybrid style, from X-Files to Rockford influences. Which I think is a good thing.

[Metaphysician]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

Hmm, good point. While the overall tone of the Astro City present is a bright bronze, there's really all the ages present at different times and places.

[zornwil]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

By the way, I tend to look at Watchmen and some Moore stuff as Silver/Iron (or Gilded or whatever). It's not as if Rorschack is such a hero, we see that more in Nite Owl. The downfall/problems with some of the heroes such as the Comedian is more an examination of supers in some sort of real life. Because it's a single storyline rather than an ongoing series, we can afford for some of the characters whom the public knows as superheroes to be very bad in some ways, even ignoble men. But in the end we have a very black-and-white picture (at least to me) where Ozymandias is in fact clearly a demented uber-villain, however well-intentioned, while Nite Owl in the end is truly a real hero.

[Doug McCrae]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

I have noticed an almost universal tendency to refer to ages as styles when looking at material post 1986. For some reason no one ever looks at a Stan Lee Fantastic Four and says "Oh that's got some Golden Age in it" or whatever.

 

I don't find it useful to use the ages as styles. To me they're time periods. The terms are much too broad to be very useful and better, more precise, terminology exists anyway. For instance a lot of uses of the term "Iron Age" to describe stuff like the Watchmen, DKR, etc would be better replaced with the term "Grim n' Gritty".