[4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

Agree with much of what's been said here, yadda yadda yadda.

 

Bronze Age man meself, I am. OK to throw some gray into the black&white mix, deal with some serious issues, etc.

 

The main thing I don't like about Iron Age is that you need a program to keep people straight. Iron Age (at its worst) seems more like "superprotagonist" fiction than "superhero" fiction.

 

If you can take a section of comic book (say, a big fight scene), show it to someone who's never seen any of the characters involved before, and based on the words and deeds of the parties involved they CAN'T TELL WHO THE BAD GUYS ARE - those kinds of mags and ensuing games I care little for.

[Katherine]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

Sorry what is exactly the Iron Age? The 80's comics' date=' 90's or present?[/quote']

 

AFAICT, Iron Age is modern comics like The Authority, Ultimates, Supreme Power, etc that take a darker look at the genre and have a more serious gritty mood to them. Adult topics are dealt with in a more blatant and some might say "crass" fashion, Death and gore are more common, etc.

[psm]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

Is it really refered to as the Iron Age?

 

Anyway, I prefer comics in the Iron Age style over Silver or Golden. See, I've been reading comics since the age of 4. Although, I didn't start collecting till I was older;) After collecting comics for so long I've become bored with the majority of characters, situations, themes in the Silver/Golden Age. Although, quite of few of those themes still permeate the Iron Age variety too. Still, alot of the Iron Age comics deal with new ideas and situations. To me that is more enjoyable than escapism.

[Agent X]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

AFAICT' date=' Iron Age is modern comics like The Authority, Ultimates, Supreme Power, etc that take a darker look at the genre and have a more serious gritty mood to them. Adult topics are dealt with in a more blatant and some might say "crass" fashion, Death and gore are more common, etc.[/quote'] I vote crass.

[Agent X]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

Is it really refered to as the Iron Age?

 

Anyway, I prefer comics in the Iron Age style over Silver or Golden. See, I've been reading comics since the age of 4. Although, I didn't start collecting till I was older;) After collecting comics for so long I've become bored with the majority of characters, situations, themes in the Silver/Golden Age. Although, quite of few of those themes still permeate the Iron Age variety too. Still, alot of the Iron Age comics deal with new ideas and situations. To me that is more enjoyable than escapism.

The Iron Age is just as escapist as any other genre.

[DoctorItron]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

As far as style goes, I'm neutral on the Iron Age "style" - it's possible to create a good comic or a bad comic using any style.

 

There are, however, quite a few Iron Age comics that I dislike because they focus solely on the negative side of things. Everyone is an evil SOB - the villains, government, corporations, civilians, and even the alleged "heroes".

 

Some Iron Age main characters are little better than the villains. Comics, IMO, should generally have obvious heroes, someone who I can care about. Having a comic book named after you isn't enough to make you a superhero.

[psm]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

The Iron Age is just as escapist as any other genre.

I agree, but most use the term 'escapism' to refer to stories that don't involve uber violence, sex or swearing. It was in that sense I was referring to. Honestly, I can lose myself in a '100 Bullets' as well as in 'Astro City'.

[psm]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

Comics' date=' IMO, should generally have obvious heroes, someone who I can care about.[/quote']

 

Honestly, I'm not trying to start a flame war but why is it necessary for comics to have heroes? Or are you referring to the superhero genre when you are saying comics?

[Metaphysician]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

A story doesn't necessarily have to have a hero; sometimes, antiheroes are just as fun to read about.

 

However, alot of iron age stuff doesn't even have a decent antihero as the protagonist. I mean, the Authority these days are just plain pathetic.

 

In a related problem, alot of iron age stuff is just plain unremittingly depressing, and/or spends the entire time not merely being dark, but specifically denigrating and repudiating every concept of goodness.

 

To put it another way, if I wanted to be terminally depressed, I'd read existentialist philosophy, not comic books.

[DoctorItron]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

A story doesn't necessarily have to have a hero; sometimes, antiheroes are just as fun to read about.

SNIP

 

Agreed.

 

This is probably one of the things that fuel the Iron Age "roxx vs sux" fires. Some people who grew up with comics books that told "superhero" stories dislike Iron Age stuff because there isn't always a hero. But some Iron Age comics go out of their way to make sure that there are no heroes, even when the story would be better (more entertaining or more plausible) if there were some heroes.

[assault]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

The current Catwoman series is an interesting case. She's a Robin Hood-style criminal, not a superhero, although the heroes (read: Batman) know she's kind of on their side.

 

She steals. She kills. She's an ex-prostitute. She wears a tight leather costume, and is often drawn in a distinctly T&A oriented manner. Her sidekick is a recovering junky and a lesbian. Blah blah blah.

 

Iron Age? Not really. At least, not how it tends to be used here. Because, underneath it all there is an idea that most people are essentially decent, even when they are in bad situations. There is a moral sense to it all - Selina cares for the people she defends.

 

It is, ultimately, a book about a heroine.

 

One who occasionally sleeps with Bruce Wayne.

[Agent X]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

Honestly' date=' I'm not trying to start a flame war but why is it necessary for comics to have heroes? Or are you referring to the superhero genre when you are saying comics?[/quote'] It's not necessary to have heroes in any story but what some Iron Age comics do is wallow in evil, petty behavior in an extremely unhealthy way.

[Evil Toki]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

It's not necessary to have heroes in any story but what some Iron Age comics do is wallow in evil' date=' petty behavior in an extremely unhealthy way.[/quote']

I like wallowing

[zornwil]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

Darn it, I feel so unoriginal now, because Chuckg just summed up my general problem with most Iron Age.

 

My specific problem is the tendency of Iron Age superheroes be total and absolute a$$h***s! Not just one member of the team, but like 90% of them. These are the sort of people that I think make the real world a rotten place to live, and I'm supposed to believe they're trying to make my fictional one better? I do not admire rapists, bigots, murderers and deviants. I do not find callousness a virtue, nor do I think being crude and selfish is something to be proud of. "but it shows they're human!" . No, not when 99% of them turn out like that. Being a jerk sometimes or on some issues may mean you're a human, being a jerk all the time just makes you a jerk.

 

That said, I suppose I should point out that for the most part, IMO, the Iron Age is chiefly over, or at the least, no longer utterly predominate and even some Iron Age comics are working to smooth out those flaws.

This is a common problem with contemporary fiction - I was watching "Rescue Me" (the TV show) last night and it struck me that while there's fine acting and writing going on, too often there's an essentially-misanthropic take as the characters act out so hatefully so often. After watching about half a dozen, what I at first found to be great drama I now find as unwatchable characters punctuate by saccharine, manipulative moments, a sort of ersatz Spielberg approach.

 

My point here is not to pick on "Rescue Me" (opinions will certainly vary) but this general post-modern trend of trying to make people "realistic" by making them basically unlikable. There's a line too-frequently crossed. And I daresay that as comics are still in the maturation process (as a medium), many styles (4-color, Iron Age) tend towards mannerist stereotypes, and the Iron Age comics therefore tend to replicate this general trend from post-modern fiction poorly (and it's already a questionable trend).

 

All that being said, I do think that there's nothing intrinsically wrong with post-modern or Iron Age story-telling. Any style which is in vogue is usually inundated with mediocrity due to volume alone, and in the case of comics (and TV and to a lesser extent movies), as aforementioned, I think a lack of maturation compounds that issue.

[Tamashii2000]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

First I don't dislike Iron Age - I have done games based in it, I just prefer more 'traditional' 4 color comics. I rather have my villianes be villianish, hero's where big cowboy hats (symbolic) and everyone be easly identified.

 

 

Was never one for the 'angst' in my game.

[Starlord]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

I'd like to be more high-minded and claim that the main reason I dislike Iron Age style is for many of the reasons stated such as murderous violence, petty heroes, less 4 color, etc.

 

However, if I REALLY think about it, I'm prolly just getting old and unconsciously taking the same stance that everyone of an older generation takes...the simple feeling that the artforms of my generation are much better than the artforms of the following generations. Be it music, comics, or what have you. Nor will I ever reclaim the feelings of anticipation at opening a new comic, nor the sheer joy, from when I was a youngster. So I hold onto a feeling that those works were superior to todays.

 

There were bad comics back in the day, y'know. Probably a lot of them. I've just forgotten them, or only the good ones stand out as more time goes by. So only the very best of an older time period is compared to ALL of the current time period. Not to mention that everything had the huge advantage of being new and fresh back then. Probably unfair.

 

Overall, I KNOW the penciling/inking is better now. The stories are more complex, themes more mature, and the writing? Well, 20-30 years from now, maybe only the best will be standing out for comparison then, too.

[zornwil]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

As to Starlord's "Nor will I ever reclaim the feelings of anticipation at opening a new comic, nor the sheer joy, from when I was a youngster.", a feeling lost in so many artforms...I never get as excited about an artist's new release or so joyous wondering "what willt his album have on it?" as back when I was discovering that stuff. I think that the best argument for children is that one gets a chance to see that discovery process again and fresh through another's eyes.

[Agent X]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

As to Starlord's "Nor will I ever reclaim the feelings of anticipation at opening a new comic' date=' nor the sheer joy, from when I was a youngster.", a feeling lost in so many artforms...I never get as excited about an artist's new release or so joyous wondering "what willt his album have on it?" as back when I was discovering that stuff. I think that the best argument for children is that one gets a chance to see that discovery process again and fresh through another's eyes.[/quote'] The best argument for having children is all the practicing that's involved in the process.

 

Seriously, I don't know how to quantify the best part of being a father.

[zornwil]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

The best argument for having children is all the practicing that's involved in the process.

 

Seriously, I don't know how to quantify the best part of being a father.

Ha!

 

Well, my answer was also from a pretty selfish/singular perspective of course and not to be taken as truly "best argument" anyway, to be clear.

[nexus]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

Someone said something recently that really resonated with me. The "good" Iron Age style stories I have read have been good, but for some reason they just didn't feel like "comic books" to me. They were so "realistic" and muddied and gray some of the wonder was lost for me. They felt more like science fiction than a modern myth. I know that is what some people enjoy and I'm not begruding them that.

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)
I view it as sort of a pendulum. In the Golden Age, there were no moral quandries. There was no internal struggle for the hero. The bad guys were irretrievably bad. The good guys had no flaws.Now, in the Iron Age, the pendulum has swung the other way - too far, IMO. Everything is a moral gray area. Heroes are hard to tell from villains. Their methods are no different; sometimes, even their goals don't differ much.To my mind, the Silver Age presented the best balance. You still had clear delineation between the good guys and the bad guys, but there were enough gray areas to allow you to identify with the characters. You still had angst, and internal conflict, and so forth. "Spider-Man No More", anyone? Peter had to struggle with the fact that being Spider-Man was screwing up his life, and had to make a choice - what was more valuable? Should he pursue the life of a hero and admit that it would impinge on his own dreams? Or should he pursue those dreams and allow innocents to be hurt?In a Silver Age story, you have these conflicts, but, in the end, the hero makes the "right" choice. This is what makes him a hero. You still have the human element, and he sometimes makes mistakes, but he represents a role model, someone to look up to, to admire. That, IMO, is what is missing from many Iron Age stories. There's no one and nothing to admire - everyone is nearly the same. And you really don't want to emulate them."A man's reach should exceed his grasp, else what's a Heaven for?" - Robert Browning

[megaplayboy]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

I do like "Ironic Age" comics, though, like the Geffen-Dematteis version of the Justice League(or Venture Brothers on Adult Swim).

Walt Simonson's run on Thor had some Iron Age elements, and Peter David's run on Hulk also had some good stuff. I just think comics shouldn't be dark and brooding and bloody and cynical just for the sake of being dark and brooding and bloody and cynical. Gets a little silly, sometimes.

Silver Age and Golden Age Batman may have been a little goofy at times, but at least he had a sense of humor

[Mike W]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

My biggest gripe with the current age is that there isn't enough dialogue/writing going on. Read a few comics from the 70s or 80s(especially Marvel, but DC is guilty of the same thing to almost as large of a degree) then read some new stuff. The new stuff reads MUCH faster and has much fewer words, much less dialogue per page. I think this is one of the reasons for all the 5-6 issue story arcs we see now, less talking, fewer transitionary words/panels means it takes longer to accomplish the same bit of plot development.

 

I have other issues but those tend to be about specific writers/companies/characters.

[Eosin]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

If you mean Iron Age as in the X-"insert title" or Punisher from the 80 & 90s then I don't really have a problem. They tend to be my preferred stories even when they do something like have Collosus kill.

 

On the other hand if you mean it in the sence of the Authority or Preacher - these things aren't really comics in the traditional meaning. Rather than being a commentary on the social condition, they actively seek change, pushing their own anti-religious, anti-family, anti-establishment, anti-"insert just about any word here" views. These writers care little for the genre going so far as to mock those who would find value in it. They don't want to tell heroic stories (defining heroic the protagonist has redeeming value as a human and faces conflict which must be overcome), the stories they tell are as far from "comics" and "heroics" as a snuff flick is from a romance. I could go on but why? They suck and have zero redeeming value.

[Phil]

Re: [4color] Why do you dislike the Iron Age style? (No flames, ok?)

 

I think partly there is a problem with definition. The Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen are both Iron age, and they are two of the greatest comic books ever written. The Authority is very different to both of those, yet ostensibly still 'iron'. I like them all.

 

However, in terms of what I dislike about something like the Authority, it's the gratuity and, to some extent, proxy-hedonism of it. The Authority have great big drunken orgies on a giant space ship because... well, I can only assume its because the writers think that'd be a cool thing to do if they were super hip. No story value, other than revealing how superficial these supposedly deep-thinkers and moral guardians actually are. Similarly, I've no particular problem with a bit of blood and death, but I do tire of the same old variant picture of Jack Hawksmoor always punching peoples heads off. *yawn*

 

If what defines the Iron Age is a more realistic treatment of how Supers might function in the real world, I'd probably go so far as to suggest that the Authority is not Iron Age. It's as much a fantasy as Golden Age heroism, just in the opposite extreme.

 

Finally, major dislike of Iron Age style: no arch-villains and no repeating nemeses. Because they only get to lose once. Inhibits story-telling big time, and part of my reason for losing interest in the Authority.