4th Edition still OK for a NEWBIE?

[EvilSpock]

Hello!

 

I have never played Champions or any other HERO game. I am a die hard D&D player and love Mutants & Masterminds. My FLGS has a used copy of 4th Ed. Champs for $8 with many supplements. My question is, should I pick it up or is it one of those *flawed* editions many companies seem to put out? If I like it I might upgrade when revised 5th hits. Thanks!

[Guzalot]

Re: 4th Edition still OK for a NEWBIE?

 

For only $8? Buy it! After you've played it a bit I'm sure you'll love it and move on to 5th Ed. The basic game mechanics haven't changed much, so it's an easy transition from 4th to 5th ed.

[Hermit]

Re: 4th Edition still OK for a NEWBIE?

 

Well, you do know 5th Edition is already out right? Or are you saying it's not out in your area?

 

I would wait for the updated 5th Edition (Supposed to have more details, a few rules changes but not many), but FREd as is is pretty darn good (FREd being slang for "Fifth Rules Edition) as is. Sidekick is a slimmed down and economical version of it for only $10 bucks, and I reccomend it.

 

That said, 4th Ed had a strong following for a reason, it's a darn good game system very close to the same. While some things changed in 5th (And I think in most cases improved) that's still a darn fine price you've got there. Eight bucks isn't bad at all.

[arcady]

Re: 4th Edition still OK for a NEWBIE?

 

4th lasted for 13 years and was quite popular - I wouldn't say it was flawed, but of course fifth improved upon it and addressed some of the issues that came to light over time.

 

If that $8 includes the suppliments as a bundle get it. Otherwise get Sidekick which is fifth edition light for $10.

 

Sidekick will be an easier read than fourth edition - it was written specifically to address the needs of novice players.

[EvilSpock]

Re: 4th Edition still OK for a NEWBIE?

 

Well, you do know 5th Edition is already out right? Or are you saying it's not out in your area?

 

I would wait for the updated 5th Edition (Supposed to have more details, a few rules changes but not many),

 

I can't find any 5th Edition rules in my area. I was lead to believe that 5th Ed HERO can't be purchased anymore and that the revised edition will be out shortly. Am I wrong that Champs requires the basic 5th Ed. Hero rules as well as the Champs sourcebook?

[arcady]

Re: 4th Edition still OK for a NEWBIE?

 

Yes the core 5th edition is out of print, with a new printing on the schedule for October.

 

Sidekick however is in print, and it a shortened version of the core 5th edition rules.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: 4th Edition still OK for a NEWBIE?

 

Am I wrong that Champs requires the basic 5th Ed. Hero rules as well as the Champs sourcebook?

 

You wouldn't need the Champions sourcebook to run a Superhero game, esp. if you have done such before/are familiar with the genre. It's still a good book, and you could find it useful for "how do I handle X in HERO?" and covers lots of genre bits, etc. Could be very useful to lend to a player unfamiliar with the genre.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: 4th Edition still OK for a NEWBIE?

 

I can't find any 5th Edition rules in my area. I was lead to believe that 5th Ed HERO can't be purchased anymore and that the revised edition will be out shortly. Am I wrong that Champs requires the basic 5th Ed. Hero rules as well as the Champs sourcebook?

 

Welcome, EvilSpock! (You have a beard I assume?)

 

It's true that at the moment the HERO System Fifth Edition core rulebook is not available (except for a few retailers) because Hero Games is in the process of preparing a Revised edition, correcting errata, refining layout and adding some clarifications and new elements which have come up over the past two years. The new edition is scheduled to be out in a couple of months or so. In the meantime, should you wish to sample the Fifth Edition the HERO System Sidekick that people have mentioned would be a good place to start.

 

In answer to your question: if the book you're talking about is Champions 4th Edition with a predominantly blue cover, I would say that $8.00 would be a very good price. For that you get essentially the whole system plus the superhero sourcebook. HERO 4E is a very good game, and IMO a pretty good place to start learning HERO. It's almost as newbie-friendly as Sidekick, and while it lacks the detail and options of the full 5E that actually makes it easier to absorb.

 

When you are ready to upgrade to 5E, this webpage summarizes the changes between the editions very well.

 

You don't actually require the 5E Champions genre book to play. The core rulebook has the entire system, and with that plus 4E Champions you could probably do quite well. That said, the new Champs genre book contains lots of great advice on running supers games in general and using HERO for them in particular.

 

Feel free to come back anytime you have more questions.

[Black Rose]

Re: 4th Edition still OK for a NEWBIE?

 

I hate doing these "Me too! Me too!" posts, but I really think I have to in this case. I picked up the 4th Ed Hero softcover back in '91-'92 (somewhere in there) for around US$7.50, and it was the best US$7.50 I ever spent. Granted, I couldn't comprehend the system at the time (too many acronyms, too flighty), but when Fuzion did BGC and Champions:NM, I realised that Hero did it better. Lots better.

 

Sure, I had some kerfluffles at first, like thinking EBs caused STUN... just STUN... and you needed KAs to cause BODY. Made that power staff darned expensive....

 

Seriously, unless you've got a pretty tight budget, pick it up. It'll give you a good grounding for 5th Ed. and 5th Ed. Revised.

 

You know, I keep wanting to make some sort of analogy describing the relationship between 4th and 5th, and I can't think of a single one that doesn't suck rocks. 4th is damned good, 5th has more examples and clears up some very long-running arguments :cough:Linked:cough: OTOH, it also has a couple of design decisions that people are still trying to determine whether they work "correctly" or not. As always, it's a fun game, and an even more fun community.

 

Welcome, it's good to have you. Enjoy the show.

[Dust Raven]

Re: 4th Edition still OK for a NEWBIE?

 

Welcome to the Hero System, EvilSpock! (and that would be a goatee, wouldn't it LL?)

 

The 4th Edition is far from flawed. In fact, the only thing better is the 5th Edition (which at first glance is nearly identical).

 

If you can get it, Sidekick would be a better buy if you wanted to get into playing the game. First, it's the current edition and more compatable with what's being put on the shelves. I only say "more" compatable because it's a "lite" version of the rules and leaves out many of the more complicated rules/skills/powers. Second, it's not much more than your used copy of the BBB (Big Blue Book, our nickname for the 4th Edition Champions hardcover).

 

If you can't get Sidekick, the BBB is not a bad find for that price. You might consider picking it up anyway. I doubt I'll become any kind of collector's item, but the sourcebook material in the back (though officially changed in 5th edition) is a good read and still very useful.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: 4th Edition still OK for a NEWBIE?

 

Welcome to the Hero System, EvilSpock! (and that would be a goatee, wouldn't it LL?)

 

Without a mustache, yes. With the mustache (as with Evil Spock) it's called a "Vandyke."

[EvilSpock]

Re: 4th Edition still OK for a NEWBIE?

 

First, and arguably most important, yes I have a goatee. This is how you can tell I am evil. Without a goatee I am not evil. That is my weakness, like Samson I lose my powers if I shave my goatee.

 

Second, thanks for the input everyone. I did pick it up since I could not find Sidekick. I have to say after reading M&M, this reads like Starfleet Battles! Yipes, the rules are certainly imposing! I will definitely have to take my time reading this.

 

Any recommended supplements? How difficult will it be to use Fifth Ed. supplements with 4th Ed. rules? Thanks again!

[chiralman]

Re: 4th Edition still OK for a NEWBIE?

 

see below (repeat response... what gives?)

[chiralman]

Re: 4th Edition still OK for a NEWBIE?

 

To answer the question, yes, the 4th Edition rules are just as good as the 5ER. The 5ER actually has little new material (other than power examples and a few rules tweaks and clarifications). The only thing that I would recommend 5ER for is if you are planning to run a heroic level game other than a superheroic game. The 4ER is 'Champions' based and more biased for superhero play. Otherwise if you can get the 4ER and then any suppliments you want you should be all set.

 

And to that I will go ahead and add that if you have the 4ER and any kind of imagination you should be ok to run any genre that you want without spending another penny. That's the great legacy that the authors of the original Hero System left for us.

[chiralman]

Re: 4th Edition still OK for a NEWBIE?

 

See above (three copies? Duplication in effect.)

[Agent X]

Re: 4th Edition still OK for a NEWBIE?

 

I can't imagine why your game store can't order Hero products.

 

My advice is buy both. I got in on 4th edition and very quickly grabbed anything I could find. There is stuff to mine in virtually every old Hero product, even Scourge of the Deep (That's an old module with some really bad villains but a really cool sea-lab map.)

[Tom McCarthy]

Re: 4th Edition still OK for a NEWBIE?

 

I think you should be able to get tons of mileage out of the 4th edition Champions rulebook. It's a strong system built and refined by years of experience. 5th edition, as advertised at the time, made few big changes but tweaked things and added interesting options to broaden the scope of things you can build with the system.

 

If you choose to buy some 5th edition books, you'll generally find that everything lines up reasonably well with 4th edition. In a very few cases, things will be changed (Shape Shift, for example, or the definition of Total Life Support) and you'll find the superheroic PCs are typically built on more points (350, not 250). Most things will be self-explanatory, so it shouldn't cause any grief at all.

 

And this board is a great source of advice and help.

 

There's a few key concepts to get you going on the game, and then you'll find it pretty darn easy.

 

Skills: Where D20 systems have you roll D20, add your bonus from attributes and skill ranks (say +9), and meet or beat a DC (say 25 for very difficult), Hero has you take your skill rank (say 14- aka 14 or less), apply a modifier (say -6 for very difficult), and try to roll the new target (8 or less) on 3D6.

 

Combat: Where D20 has you hit by rolling D20 and adding your bonus (say +9 from BAB, DEX for a ranged shot, and feats), then comparing it to the defense (say AC 25), Hero has you take your OCV (your dexterity divided by 3, the attributes bonus really; say 8), add levels (the equivalent of BAB and feats; say 2) and 11 (like the base AC 10 in D&D it's the average roll on the dice) and subtract the target's DCV (his defence; say 9). Roll that number (12) or less on 3D6 to hit.

Then the damage roll is typically a big hand of D6's, and the target typically gets to use physical defence (PD) or energy defence (ED) as 'damage resistance' (in D20 terms) to reduce the actual damage done.

 

Speed Chart: This is the big one. In D20, everyone gets one action in a round (roughly 6 seconds). In Hero, everyone has a Speed (SPD) stat, and they act that many times in 12 seconds. Normal people are about 2, police and soldiers are 3, and superheroes start at 4 or 5, bunch around 5 or 6, and speedsters and martial artists go to 7, 8, 9 and 10. Each 'phase' allows a character to act, and many actions take a 'half phase' (much like an action within a D&D 3.5 round).

[Yesman]

Re: 4th Edition still OK for a NEWBIE?

 

I could easily justify spending 8$ on just about any one of the old 4th ed. supplements. Getting the 4th. ed core book + multiple supplements for that amount is a honey of a deal. Hell, I've got 5th ed. and most of the fantasy and Champs supplements, and I'd still be very tempted by that deal.

[zornwil]

Re: 4th Edition still OK for a NEWBIE?

 

EvilSpock, I love the avatar and handle! And a hearty welcome to HERO!

 

I think 4th Edition is a fine start. In some ways it's preferable to 5th IMHO (I think many glossed-over areas are just as well glossed-over, even though I find the ideas in 5th wonderful from a "suggestions" or "academic thoughts" perspective), although 5th does fix several things that are of significance.

 

Let us know how it goes, feel free to check in any time/all the time for suggestions.

 

As to suggested supplements, what sorts of things do you want/need? I am not so familiar with the settings/character supplements since I don't use those. You have the Champions genre material since you have 4th. As to learning the system after looking at M&M, yup, it is more daunting, but I think it's like any system, start slow, start with what makes sense and you need immediately, then branch out from there. The system is more internally consistent than M&M (it's a lot older and more mature, even at that writing), and I think/hope you'll find as you move through it that it's more modular and the basic concepts aren't deviated from much (small example - you won't find the prerequisites among skills that are required in M&M, aside from the Language Chart which frankly you can ignore). If nothing else, you basically can learn the Speed Chart,the basic characteristics, read the skills and powers you need, and go through the basic maneuvers and you've got a game system.