Fantasy coinage

[tkdguy]

Lately I've been researching old coins. Looking at all the different engravings, I had the idea of making coins more detailed.

 

The simple method would be to show a profile of the current ruler on the obverse side and the royal coat-of-arms on the reverse side. This would result in coins being differentiated by their metal content size, and date of issue.

 

A more complicated approach would be to personalize each type of coin. I'll use Imperial coins from the Warhammer game as an example

 

Gold Crowns:

Obverse side: Profile of the current emperor (Karl Franz)

Reverse side: The Imperial crown

 

Silver Shillings:

Obverse side: Profile of a past emperor (eg Magnus the Pious)

Reverse side: The Ghal Maraz (Sigmar's hammer)

 

Brass Pennies:

Obverse side: Profile of a famous hero (eg Boris Todbringer)

Reverse side: Iron Cross

 

Note that the age of these coins can be approximated by looking at the engraving on the coin.

 

If only the metal of the coin determines the value of the coin, you don't need to include a monetary value. If you include separate coins with the same metal (eg a three-penny piece or a half-crown), you should indicate a number to differentiate it from the "normal" value.

 

One final note: The price of gold and silver would probably fluctuate throughout the years. So while a gold coin may equal 20 silver coins in one century, a gold coin may only equal 10 silver coins in another. That would affect costs of living and exchange rates.

[Guest taxboy4]

Re: Fantasy coinage

 

Slightly - well ok, wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy off topic is the thing about D&D that used to pee me off and push me into Hero system...simply put the gold coin was not worth anything...

 

In my gamesa single gold coin is worth 25 silvers that is worth 25 coppers - a bag of gold coins is an absolute fortune.

 

this lines up with my philosiphy for fantasy games that coins and even equipment can be an adventure unto themselves - if a stell vbroadsword takes 5 weeks to make and needs a dukes ransom of metal - it becomes a sort after treausre...let along a mithril axe etc!!

[Maelstrom]

Re: Fantasy coinage

 

Slightly - well ok' date=' wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy off topic is the thing about D&D that used to pee me off and push me into Hero system...simply put the gold coin was not worth anything...[/quote']

 

This is kind of a matter of taste, really. I remember from my old AD&D books that gold had lost its value because adventurers kept flooding the cities with it. But I've played in 'street-level' fantasy where you kept your gold locked away in your vest . . . and never spent anything above a single silver piece.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Fantasy coinage

 

I've wondered why we don't more often see coinage denominated in weights. At one time shekels were a unit of measurement of weight, and then they were a coin. Likewise pounds (still in use as the British unit of money).

 

Plus, who says gold and silver have to float against one another? Suppose the central bank decides that 24 ounces of silver will exchange for one ounce of gold. Let's say you've got 12 ounces to the pound, and therefore you've decided to go with the British method and call it "pounds of silver" or just plain pounds. A one ounce gold coin could therefore be denominated as a two pound coin. A one pound coin would be a half-ounce of gold.

 

What this non-floating of the currency means is that the central bank will always ("on demand") exchange 24 ounces of silver for one ounce of gold, or vice versa. (When the US first had paper currency on a hard money standard, bills were printed with the legend "Redeemable on demand for X worth of silver" or whatever.) And for this to happen, it is likely the central government would want a monopoly on gold mining, silver mining, or both. (Alternately, they could debase their money, turning it from hard coinage into fiat currency.)

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Fantasy coinage

 

Lately I've been researching old coins. Looking at all the different engravings, I had the idea of making coins more detailed.

 

The simple method would be to show a profile of the current ruler on the obverse side and the royal coat-of-arms on the reverse side. This would result in coins being differentiated by their metal content size, and date of issue.

 

You could go one further and have them called by the names, or nicknames, of who they picture. For example, you could refer to Franzes, Magnuses, Old Bastards, and so on.

 

Something else to think about: you might have a country in which the government doesn't claim the monopoly on minting coin. It could be that moneychangers, banks, large trading houses, and so on, all mint their own coins. Perhaps anyone rich enough can mint their own currency; all they have to do is provide a proof set (or five, or ten) to the central bank's archives.

[Maelstrom]

Re: Fantasy coinage

 

I've wondered why we don't more often see coinage denominated in weights. At one time shekels were a unit of measurement of weight' date=' and then they were a coin. Likewise pounds (still in use as the British unit of money). [/quote']

 

We probably should. I can hear Sir Thomas Gresham spinning in his grave.

[tkdguy]

Re: Fantasy coinage

 

Actually, the value of coins were (from what I gather) were based on their weight (in pennyweights) and how fine the content of the metal was. While copper coins are common in fantasy rpgs, in England they would have been considered too devalued to have any purchasing power. However, there were coins made of billon, which is a silver/copper alloy.

 

I also read that in Germany during the 13th-16th centuries, the gold coin had devalued to 10 silver coins. However, in England and France, the 20 to 1 ratio for gold to silver prevailed.

 

The pound came from a pound of silver, from which 240 coins were minted. In Saxon England, the coins were called sterling, hence the term pounds sterling.

[LordGhee]

Re: Fantasy coinage

 

reading a book about John Law the man who set up the first large bank in France to issue paper money. the only way you kept your wealth is to put it in to silver ware etc. the lack of coins was a big problem fron the beging of coinaige. Note fifty years after coins apeared banking was set up with letter of credit, checks ect.

when the spanish hit it rich in america the value of gold quickly went to half what it was .

 

more later

 

Lord Ghee

[Ternaugh]

Re: Fantasy coinage

 

Actually, the value of coins were (from what I gather) were based on their weight (in pennyweights) and how fine the content of the metal was. While copper coins are common in fantasy rpgs, in England they would have been considered too devalued to have any purchasing power. However, there were coins made of billon, which is a silver/copper alloy.

 

I also read that in Germany during the 13th-16th centuries, the gold coin had devalued to 10 silver coins. However, in England and France, the 20 to 1 ratio for gold to silver prevailed.

 

The pound came from a pound of silver, from which 240 coins were minted. In Saxon England, the coins were called sterling, hence the term pounds sterling.

 

Additionally, "sterling" meant an alloy mix of 92.5% silver and 7.5% other metal (usually copper). The origins of sterling could be a German region ("Easterlings"), Sterling castle, or even a mark of a bird on certain coins.

 

And the first gold pound (English) was issued in 1489 during the reign of Henry VII. It weighed half a troy ounce (a little over 15g) and had a purity of 23 karat. And that 20:1 ratio mentioned in your post was the number of shillings in a pound. And 1 shilling was worth 12 pence.

 

In most cases, the loss of value of the continental currencies was due to a debasing of the currency by lowering the gold or silver present in the coins.

 

JoeG

 

Now Playing: Thomas Dolby, "The Golden Age of Wireless"

[Basil]

Re: Fantasy coinage

 

Note fifty years after coins apeared banking was set up with letter of credit, checks ect.

 

The first coins date back to circa 650 BCE, in Lydia in Asia Minor. Letters of Credit started in the 13th century CE, in Avignon.

 

I'm afraid your timing is a little off.

 

 

BTW, the first paper money came into use circa 975 CE, in China.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Fantasy coinage

 

We probably should. I can hear Sir Thomas Gresham spinning in his grave.

 

I believe that most countries would rather control their money supply by controlling the printing presses, rather than by nationalizing their gold and silver mines. I think that some countries even don't have gold and silver mines to nationalize.....

 

At any rate, I think that fiat currency is in general easier for governments to control.

[tkdguy]

Re: Fantasy coinage

 

Some more interesting facts:

 

In the UK, the gold standard was abolished and reestablished in different eras, finally being abandoned permanently in 1931.

 

Money was not decimalized in the UK until February 15, 1971. Until then, the exchange rate was 1 pound = 20 shillings, 1 shilling = 12 pence.

[Maelstrom]

Re: Fantasy coinage

 

At any rate, I think that fiat currency is in general easier for governments to control.

 

The downside is that fiat currency is easier to counterfeit, as well. Counter-fiat?

 

I don't have stats on how much counterfeiting goes on in the US, but I bet that the Treasury website might. Or might not. I can think of security reasons for that.

[Slim_McCoy]

Re: Fantasy coinage

 

Money was not decimalized in the UK until February 15, 1971. Until then, the exchange rate was 1 pound = 20 shillings, 1 shilling = 12 pence.

 

IIRC, in the pre-decimal system:

 

2 Farthings = 1 Ha'penny

2 Ha'pennies = 1 Penny

3 Pennies = Thrupenny Bit

2 Thrupenny Bits = 1 Sixpence

2 Sixpence = 1 Shilling

10 Shillings = 1 Half Crown

2 Half Crowns = 1 Pound (240 Pennies)

1 Pound, 1 Shilling = 1 Guinea

 

The Decimal System (100 Pennies = 1 Pound) was initially resisted by many because they felt it was overly complicated. (shrug)

[tkdguy]

Re: Fantasy coinage

 

I think nowadays, guineas are a money of account. That is, there's no guinea coin or bill, but it is written in the registers for rarefied transactions. I don't know if this still holds true, but I read that guineas are (were?) still used to buy a Rolls Royce. You don't pay for a Rolls Royce in pounds sterling; that would be too common!

[LordGhee]

Re: Fantasy coinage

 

Sorry Basil, the Greeks had a very developed banking system and issue letter of credit, The medivial world just rediscovered thease pracitices.

 

Lord Ghee

[Basil]

Re: Fantasy coinage

 

I'm gathering a number of notes into one post:

 

The simple method would be to show a profile of the current ruler on the obverse side and the royal coat-of-arms on the reverse side. This would result in coins being differentiated by their metal content size, and date of issue.

A more complicated approach would be to personalize each type of coin.

The first method (though note that sometimes full-face representations were used) is what was used from ancient days through the 17th and 18th centuries (and later), save for the US and other republics. After all, the right to coin was considered part of the honor & power of the monarch, hence his visage "should" appear on the coinage. Putting a dead king's face--much less the face of someone who isn't and wasn't and won't be the king--on coins makes no sense in such a POV: the coins should uphold and increase the honor of the current monarch, is the idea.

The royal coat of arms is an appropriate reverse for the major coin(s), elements from the coat of arms would work on lesser coins, and various symbols (not necessarily from the royal arms) would be OK for minor coins.

BTW, the value of the coin was often written on coins, even in periods when the majority of citizens were illiterate--after all, the royal ministers and such were largely literate, who cared if the people weren't?

 

Something else to think about: you might have a country in which the government doesn't claim the monopoly on minting coin. It could be that moneychangers' date=' banks, large trading houses, and so on, all mint their own coins. Perhaps anyone rich enough can mint their own currency; all they have to do is provide a proof set (or five, or ten) to the central bank's archives.[/quote']

For an interesting varient on this idea, see the "Garrett Files" stories of Glen Cook. In that fictional world, the government allows anyone to coin, so long as they register their designs, and buy their metal blanks from which the coins are struck from the government. Saves the government the cost of coining.

 

Actually' date=' the value of coins were (from what I gather) were based on their weight (in pennyweights)[/quote']

Or whatever unit of weight that country/culture used.

 

and how fine the content of the metal was. While copper coins are common in fantasy rpgs' date=' in England they would have been considered too devalued to have any purchasing power. However, there were coins made of billon, which is a silver/copper alloy.[/quote']

All depending on the time and place. Until around the 15th or 16th century, the English crown hadn't coined in copper. However, certain private persons issued "tokens" in copper, pewter, and even cheaper materials; this was usually done because of the lack of small coins. For example, in the days of Samuel Pepys, tokens were regularly issued by taverns and other merchants.

Also, in England at least, billon was seldom used, and then only when debasing a formerly silver coinage.

 

I also read that in Germany during the 13th-16th centuries, the gold coin had devalued to 10 silver coins. However, in England and France, the 20 to 1 ratio for gold to silver prevailed.

Actually, in ancient days a 12:1 ratio was considered standard, indeed "proper." The 20:1 ratio is about what was found in medieval times; even then it could fluctuate a good deal. Also, that was what you'd find in Western Europe; it could vary elsewhere (e.g., in early midieval Arabia silver was more valuable than gold!)

 

The pound came from a pound of silver' date=' from which 240 coins were minted. In Saxon England, the coins were called sterling, hence the term pounds sterling.[/quote']

The origins of sterling could be a German region ("Easterlings")' date=' Sterling castle, or even a mark of a bird on certain coins.[/quote']

More precisely, "pound" as a unit of money comes from "pound of sterlings," sterlings being the name given to the early Normal silver penny. BTW, the online OED says that "sterling" is of obscure origin, and says the most likely origin is from "ster" (or "stær"), meaning "star". The early Norman pennies were marked on the reverse with a star. The "mark of a bird" referred to, is the four martlets (often miscalled starlings) in the arms of Saxon king Edward (the Confessor). This popular etymology is considered wrong due to the fact that there is no record of the term "sterling" until after the Normal Conquest.

 

IIRC, in the pre-decimal system:

2 Farthings = 1 Ha'penny

2 Ha'pennies = 1 Penny

3 Pennies = Thrupenny Bit

2 Thrupenny Bits = 1 Sixpence

2 Sixpence = 1 Shilling

10 Shillings = 1 Half Crown

2 Half Crowns = 1 Pound (240 Pennies)

1 Pound, 1 Shilling = 1 Guinea

The Decimal System (100 Pennies = 1 Pound) was initially resisted by many because they

felt it was overly complicated. (shrug)

You have listed a number of different coins. However, there are only three units of money; pounds, shillings, and pence. This is similar to the USA, where there are dollars and cents, vs. pennies, nickels, dimes, quarters, half-dollars, and dollar coins (plus various denominations of bills). Also note that, just as cents are units and pennies are coins in the US, pence are units and pennies are coins in pre-decimalization UK. BTW, the biggest objection to decimalization was not that it was complicated, but that there was no way to evenly divide a shilling (or a pound), by three.

 

I think it a good idea here to touch on the subject of "money of account." Through the Renaissance (and even beyond), most accounts were kept in terms of a unit of money that was seperate from any actual coinage. That is, one would write down an expense as so-and-so many whatsies, regardless of what coins were used to make the purchase. In an era where the king might suddenly issue the most debased coinage imaginable, &/or in a society where one could be faced with coins of wildly varient value and purity, a way to keep accounts that was independant of such "external" fluctuations is obviously a marvelous idea.

Thus, accounts were kept in a steady, dependable unit of money, even though that unit was fictitious. In England, for example, accounts were kept in pounds/shillings/pence from early times, even though no 1-pound coin was issued until the 15th century. Further, one might (for example) hand over 6 shilling coins for an object, yet record the value of the purchase as 4 shillings: this would happen if the money was debased.

BTW, in Spain the money was the maravedi, yet (so far as my researches have ever found), no such coin was ever issued (not surprising, as it was a very small value).

Thus, a money of account helps to compare one coin (or coinage system) to another.

Obviously, the idea of a money of account could be a very interesting addition to a fantasy campaign. It would help the GM show the players the sort of complications that realistically would exist in a medieval-like setting, where coins from all over would be flowing in and out of the city (or wherever the characters are headquartered), and people would need to be able to convert values of varying coins and coinages.

[Basil]

Re: Fantasy coinage

 

Sorry Basil, the Greeks had a very developed banking system and issue letter of credit, The medivial world just rediscovered thease pracitices.

 

Lord Ghee

 

Citation please?

 

On my side, please see

1) http://makeashorterlink.com/?Z53B11A29 {which will take you to a Google page}

2) Life in a Midieval City by Joseph Gies {BTW, this book treats of the great Market Fairs, and how they led to the growth of modern trading and banking systems, includiing letters of credit. He does not specify a city of origin for letters of credit, but clearly considers them a midieval invention).

[LordGhee]

Re: Fantasy coinage

 

Basil I will try to get a good source and Quote but if you would start with googling Roman Bankers and History of Greek Banking.

 

http://www.ex.ac.uk/~RDavies/arian/amser/chrono1.html

 

great timeline

 

note code of Hammurabi (1750 bc) is reported to have laws on banking

 

accorrding to the Accounting I took the Babaloyions developed accoounting with writing .

 

. 350 BC Normal rate of interest in Greece is 10% except for risky business

According to Demosthenes 10% is the normal rate of interest for run-of-the-mill business. For risky business such as lending for shipping rates of between 20% and 30% are normal

 

This is from Roy and Glyn Davies book : A History of Money ISBN: 0 7083 1351 5.

 

on this siite I learn where the word money came from (involes a famous geese incident)

 

I rember the The Templar used letter of credit from chapter house to chapter house, they helped Richard the Lionhearted. 1180 about.

 

Lord Ghee

[LordGhee]

Re: Fantasy coinage

 

Banking and Business in the Roman World (Key Themes in Ancient History)

by Jean Andreau, P. A. Cartledge (Editor), P. D. A. Garnsey (Editor), Janet Lloyd (Translator)

 

just reading the more info on amazon is informative, think I will put this on my list at least to look up a the libary.

 

Lord Ghee

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Fantasy coinage

 

At any rate' date=' I think that fiat currency is in general easier for governments to control.[/quote']

More importantly, easier for GMs to control. Don't get me wrong: I find all of this quite fascinating, but I don't want to turn my games into economics lessons or my players into accountants. If the GM simply says, "Coin X is made of metal Y, and is equal in value to Z of coin A, made of metal B, which in turn..." and that's it - the values are fixed in price. Then you can get on with the slaying of monsters and the rescuing of fair maidens.

 

Even though realism suffers slightly. Fiat currency is probably the easiest system of all, but it requires a high degree of governmental stability, which didn't exist that much in medieval times, not in more fantasy settings. The King of A conquers the King of B, and suddenly the currency issued to all the people of the conquered kingdom is now worthless (or worth less).

[Nyrath]

Re: Fantasy coinage

 

IIRC the ridges around the edges of some coins was to defeat "clipping". It seems that some unscrupulous individuals would grind away some of the gold or silver from the edges of a coin and hope that nobody noticed.

 

In my Fantasy campaigns, a minor point that I found facinating was the relative cost of various items in ancient times. Useful for making price lists. My main source was some old history text but I found a few websites that help.

 

http://www2002.stoke.gov.uk/museums/pmag/archaeology/romans/cost.htm

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/medievalprices.html

http://dougsmith.ancients.info/worth.html

http://www.ancientcoinmarket.com/ds/worth/1.html

[Photon1966]

Re: Fantasy coinage

 

Coins can be a lot of fun and used as props but really they are a minor element in the overall campaign. Most players don't care what there made of just what can they get for them and how much they weigh them down.

 

In my own game I used names of Birds for the coins names, and just kept a simple 10:1 progression. I have tried other progressions but it just seemed to confuse the players and didn't seem to really add anything to the game. but nameing them various Birds or Bird like creatures did. It tied into th ehistory of the country and though players haven't been too active to wonder why birds it is just one of many obviouse campaign elements and hooks in the game which the players may investigate to learn more about the over all campaign.

 

The coins are as follows:

Crows are the lowest

then Hawks

Falcons are the most common, sorta a D&D G.P.

Eagles and then

Griffons

 

I introduced an Elven coin that elves use for trade and it's more like a credit note, but when used up the magic within dies and dries up. The dwarves also have a Coin called the Dwarven Dragon which comes with and with out gems. But both Elves and Dwarves barter more then they use coins in my game but that helps to differentiate them from humans. Many elves won't even accept coins as they see no value in them. Just some ideas along the same train of thought.

[Old Man]

Re: Fantasy coinage

 

I introduced an Elven coin that elves use for trade and it's more like a credit note, but when used up the magic within dies and dries up. The dwarves also have a Coin called the Dwarven Dragon which comes with and with out gems. But both Elves and Dwarves barter more then they use coins in my game but that helps to differentiate them from humans. Many elves won't even accept coins as they see no value in them. Just some ideas along the same train of thought.

 

That's pretty cool.

[Basil]

Re: Fantasy coinage

 

Basil I will try to get a good source and Quote but if you would start with googling Roman Bankers and History of Greek Banking.

 

http://www.ex.ac.uk/~RDavies/arian/amser/chrono1.html

 

great timeline

 

note code of Hammurabi (1750 bc) is reported to have laws on banking

 

I was clearly referring to your claim that letters of credit were used by the ancient Greeks. I never said nor implied they didn't have some form of banking.

 

I rember the The Templar used letter of credit from chapter house to chapter house, they helped Richard the Lionhearted. 1180 about.

Such an instrument of internal accounting is not, in the proper sense, a letter of credit.