A new take on "Deadly Blow"

[Briguy123]

I am currently running a Fantasy Hero campaign and though I like the Fantasy Hero source book, it is geared toward a higher power level than my current campaign. One example of this is the Deadly blow talent. A character with 11 strength and the deadly blow talent can deal out as much damage with a knife (1/2d6 HKA, str. min. 4) as a character wielding a great sword (2d6 HKA str. min 17). While this is fine for a high fantasy setting, it doesn't fit the tone of the campaign I'm running. However, I do think the general concept of deadly blow (being able to strike highly accurate and damaging blows under limited circumstances) fits my campaign. Because of this I have developed an alternate build for deadly that I believe is less powerful but still useful enough to be worth taking. I would like some feed back.

 

The power is constructed using CSL's rather than a naked RKA adder which resolves several issues.

• Skill levels can only increase weapon damage up to double the initial value.
  
• The "naked attack power being cumulative with another attack power" issue is avoided.
  
• The CSL version can be applied to normal damage weapons as well as killing damage weapons.
  
• CSL's don't cost endurance.
  

 

The CSL version of deadly blow can be bought multiple times with each successive purchase increasing damage by 1 DC.

 

Deadly Blow Cost:

3, 4 or 5 character points (bought as 2 levels with H to H or ranged combat; only to increase damage( -1), -2, -1/2 or -0 limitation based on circumstances in which bonus damage applies).

 

I have two questions about this variant. First, are there any possible rules violations associated with this version of deadly blow, and second, if you were a player, would you consider this version of the talent worth taking?

[Eodin]

Re: A new take on "Deadly Blow"

 

I have two questions about this variant. First, are there any possible rules violations associated with this version of deadly blow?

 

None that are obvious. CSLs can be used to add damage, and a limit for use and circumstances are perfectly legal. You may want to have variations for weapon group (ie Bows, Blades) as well as ranged and HTH levels.

 

and second' date=' if you were a player, would you consider this version of the talent worth taking?[/quote']

If it were a low fantasy campaign and you disallowed the Deadly Blow in Fantasy Hero, it might be worth it. But it's only adding +1DC - if my character's levels haven't maxed the damage out already - so I'd probably spend my points somewhere else.

 

An alternative would be, since you're GM, not to allow more than +1d6 under any circumstances, and to rewrite it as follows:

My Deadly Blow: KA +1d6; OIF (woo; -1/2), Limited (Does Not Increase Base, Adds After STR, CSLs, etc.; -1/2), -2, -1/2, or -0 based on circumstances.

 

Or you could prohibit buying more than +1d6 with all but the Very Limited Circumstances (e.g. Dragonslayer).

 

And for more realistic campaigns, limit the maximum dice purchased to +1d6 or the weapon's normal damage, whichever is less. So a dagger could only be +1/2d6 Deadly Blow, not +1d6, and a hairpin could only be +1 pip.

[CourtFool]

Re: A new take on "Deadly Blow"

 

However' date=' I do think the general concept of deadly blow (being able to strike highly accurate and damaging blows under limited circumstances) fits my campaign.[/quote']

How about Penalty Skill Levels vs. Hit Location?

[Archangel Gabri]

Re: A new take on "Deadly Blow"

 

I honestly think the PSLs vs Hit Location are a more realistic way to simulate this. The problems with that approach have been thoroughly debated in this thread.

 

The truth is that 8 PSLs vs Hit Location, assuming they are the 3 pt levels with all attacks, permit an unmodified to-hit roll at the Head, essentially doubling the killing damage of every attack you have for 24 points. This is unbalancing, especially in a low-powered game.

 

In other words, I think you've got exactly the right answer in your construct. If you want it to seem more realistic, perhaps a bit of mix-n-match is in order.

[Markdoc]

Re: A new take on "Deadly Blow"

 

As laid out, this is perfectly kosher. If you outlaw Deadly Blow (and I did as soon as we playtested it) then CSLs are an alternative - as are PSLs to hit the soft bits.

 

However, my observation is that rather than taking CSLs only to increase damage, most players prefer to take just ordinary ol' 3 point CSLs that can be used on OCV/DCV/+damage.

 

Since 5 point CSLs are the smallest that can be limited and you need 2 to get a DC, a -1 limitation for (only to do damage) is probably not enough. Compare for yourself. Which would you rather have?

 

5 points for +1 DC

6 points for +1 DC, +1 OCV or +1 DCV

 

In general, the fact that that 5 points gets you ?1 DC with all HTH is not enough to outwiegh the charms of the 3 point level.

 

Although it seems excessive, I'm tempted to go with a -1 1/2 limit for "only to do damage". That reduces the cost to 4 points per DC and makes a full extra dice 12 points. That's only slightly more than +1d6 of deadly blow, but does not give an increased base damage, which is at the heart of the Deadly Blow problem. You could limit it further down from there for specific circumstances.

 

cheers, Mark

[sbarron]

Re: A new take on "Deadly Blow"

 

5 points for +1 DC

6 points for +1 DC, +1 OCV or +1 DCV

I agree with Markdoc on this. However, the above chart should be...

 

5 points for +1 DC

6 points for +1 DC, +1 OCV and +1 DCV, or +2 OCV, or +2 DCV

 

Which just makes this an even more obvious choice. Making "damage only" a 1 1/2 lim would make it less of an obvious chioce again, but still maybe not enough that I would buy it. That's what, 4 pts per DC? I guess that makes sense. That's what the extra DC in a MA costs.

 

I guess once a character hits the CV ceiling in his game, these damage only levels might make sense.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: A new take on "Deadly Blow"

 

We've been using 2/4/6 costs in our current campaigns for over a year. Characters started at 75 pts and the current group is at 120. After the recent discussion in the other thread I bumped it to 3/5/7 per +1 DC and it still raises the base damage. This was after I built Deadly Blow as an Aid to HKA, which worked out quite nicely. Add a little hand waving, and I think it is very much balanced for Heroic games at 3/5/7 pts per +1 DC.

 

As a caveat, we charge double for STR so this makes Deadly Blow a little more attractive. That said, it has never been unbalanced. When you only have 120 points, spending 21 on +1d6K with any weapon is a bit much. Especially when you are going to want a good STR to get larger weapons anyway.

 

Tha's my recommended fix. I see the damage bonus from skill levels as a dimished value-add to the primary ability of CSLs... to add OCV/DCV. I wouldn't base a revised Deadly Blow off that. Martial Arts has a +1 DC for 4 pts, which compares nicely to the 5 pt Deadly Blow. Better in someways, not as good in others, but a value none-the-less. Even when STR costs 1 pt/+1, if you are using NCM these abilities still have value, and for light weapons very much so.

[Briguy123]

Re: A new take on "Deadly Blow"

 

Thanks for everyones input. I like the suggestion of increasing the limitation "only to do damage" from -1 to -1 1/2. Granted, regular 3 point CSL's or extra strength may be more efficient; however, I do have maximum OCV caps in place and I charge double for strength. I have one player who wants to play a character who's not particularly strong but specializes in ambush attacks. The player wants his character to have a high dex and plenty of levels, but feels the character concept doesn't justify purchasing martial arts to increase his damage. We were trying to come up with a viable alternative to the deadly blow talent as it was designed in the Fantasy Hero source book.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: A new take on "Deadly Blow"

 

That's only slightly more than +1d6 of deadly blow' date=' but does not give an increased base damage, which is at the heart of the Deadly Blow problem. You could limit it further down from there for specific circumstances.[/quote']

I don't know as that's necessarily the problem. While I think Deadly Blow is too cheap, it does serve the purpose of allowing a character to avoid big weapons to do damage. If you don't allow something like this, someone cannot make a knife fighter that can compete with a sword fighter, simply due to the way the mechanics of the system are constructed.

 

This isn't a problem in a fantasy game where one pays points for equipment, only when equipment is essentially "free". A power which raises base damage allows character concept to work within that type of system, and I think is good. If you have a STR Min 5 knife at 2 DC a 15 STR character can already max out the damage of the weapon. If he bought martial arts he will also hit that limit pretty early even without 15 STR.

 

Your conclusion concerning the cost vis-a-vis Martial DCs is the same one I came up with and what had driven me to my current 3/5/7 per DC cost structure. I also don't think base damage should necessarily increase, just that the Deadly Blow damage is separate from damage totalling. At a 3/5/7 cost and possibly an artificial limit of no more than +1d6K I think that works just fine. All weapons still max out to x2 base DCs and then Deadly Blow gets added to the top. +1d6K Deadly Blow added to a knife can then at most do 2d6+1K, which isn't unreasonable and is a lot of fun. Even a sword (e.g. 1d6+1K) with +5 STR and a +4DC martial maneuver and +1d6K deadly blow would do 3d6+1K. That's a good amount of damage, but not untenable (averaging 11.5 vs. heavy armor of 6-8 DEF), and represents a high STR, martial artist with probably 15 points in deadly blow (+3 DC with swords).

[Markdoc]

Re: A new take on "Deadly Blow"

 

I don't know as that's necessarily the problem. While I think Deadly Blow is too cheap' date=' it does serve the purpose of allowing a character to avoid big weapons to do damage. If you don't allow something like this, someone cannot make a knife fighter that can compete with a sword fighter, simply due to the way the mechanics of the system are constructed. [/quote']

 

Eee, bah gum. I'm getting a little tired of writing this - but there are multiple ways of building effective knife fighters - or swordfighters, for that matter. CSLs, PSL, Find Weakness, buying HKA and then limiting it, buying Aid to HKA, or martial arts.

 

I allow all of these, and in my previous "low level" fantasy game we ended up after a few months play with a PC who could dish out 4d6+1 with an ordinary, non magic sword and swing up to OCV 14 if she wanted to (and this in a game where the best armour generally available was chain mail, and much of the combat took place in civilian clothes!) Talk about lethal....

 

So I have no problem with high damage or high CVs - as long as the players pay for it.

 

My problem with Deadly Blow is that it doesn't work the same way as any of these approaches, it's relatively cheap compared to any of them, and by opening your game to cheap, effective knife fighters, you are also opening your game to cheap, even more effective axe-fighters. All it really does is increase the overall damage level of the campaign: my experience so far has been that once one player buys Deadly Blow, very soon, all of the fighter types buy it. If you look at the fighter characters posted to this list recently, almost all of them have it. I didn't buy it for my latest character because I disallow it as a GM: it seems hypocritical to do so. But I can see that in the future I'll buy it. It's simply too cost-effective to ignore.

 

So far, thank the seven holy virgins, no-one has asked for a "Deadly spell" ability, but I foresee its arrival....

 

cheers, Mark

[TheTemplar]

Re: A new take on "Deadly Blow"

 

True...allowing Deadly Blow to be used freely has tremendous potential to upset game balance. But, only if players are allowed to just buy it for no good reason or defining it with limitations. The only character types that I've allowed to purchase deadly blow are Thieves to simulate a "sneak attack." I did also have a Ranger PC who bought it with his swords vs. Goblins as a Racial Enemy simulator, but I'm pretty sure he was able to kill Goblins in 1 hit w/out it to begin with (I mean, hey...they're Goblins after all! )

 

It works perfectly well for use as a Sneak Attack. In my campaign, the thief has to make a successful stealth roll to sneak up on the victim, and the Sneak Attack can only be used in a surprise action phase, since the rest of the time, the enemy would be aware of his presence (barring any unusual circumstances, such as him being hidden at the start of phase 12.) So, essentially, he only gets 1 shot with it before phase 12, and if he misses, or fails to kill the target, it leaves him in a rather vulnerable position with the other group too far away to be of any immediate help.

 

Anyway, I personally don't see adding an average of 3.5 body to an attack as being too terribly unbalancing, but that's just me. And, I do keep a pretty tight grip on it's use. I certainly wouldn't allow it to be purchased by a Greataxe wielding Barbarian simply because he wanted to do more damage with no solid IC reason for backing it up, and allowing more than 1 level of it to be purchased shouldn't even be considered until the characters (assuming a 150 start) are up to about 220-225 or so... in my book, at any rate.

[TheTemplar]

Re: A new take on "Deadly Blow"

 

And, let us know how the "Deadly Spell" request works out for you! I was dreading that myself...especially after reading the Necromancy chapter in FHG. However, I have the fortune (or misfortune, depending on your POV) of not having any spellcasting PC's (for the moment, at least) which means I get to control the XP spending for the hired NPC spellcaster (which ever of the 4 that I've made that they choose to hire for that mission - They can choose from an Alchemist, an Elven Ranger/Wizard, a Druid, or a Priest/Sorcerer.)

[Markdoc]

Re: A new take on "Deadly Blow"

 

Lol - since I have already disallowed deadly blow, "deadly spell" is not on the menu.

 

But as for the sneak thief attack, we simply went with

 

Backstab "+1d6 HKA, can only be used against unsuspecting foe (-1), requires a killing weapon of opportunity (-1/2), real weapon (-1/4).

 

Note that I did not give any STR Min, since this attack reflects the ability to put a bit of metal into a soft spot, not muscle power. This costs 5 points, allows the thief to use a dagger to do 2d6 HKA against unsuspecting foes (or a garrotte or a sword or whatever - even a hatpin would do) - the real weapon limitation was retained so that he could not - for example - garrotte a living statue made of stone, even if he sneaked up on it. Unlike deadly blow, however, it does not allow him to pick up a greatsword and do 3d6 killing.

 

Given that a sneak attack a) allows an attack versus a DCV0 target and halves hit location penalty and c) doubles stun, even at 2d6, this attack essentially allows an instant kill on anything that is not armoured to the teeth - especially as the standard approach was an attack on the head or vitals, with a few extra levels added to damage, to make sure he didn't only do 2 BOD...

 

You can see in my games why the burly fighter with the 4d6 killing attack didn't steal all the limelight!

 

cheers, Mark

[Jhereg]

Re: A new take on "Deadly Blow"

 

I’ve noticed a lot of GMs don’t like Deadly Blow, and I agree with their beefs.

 

My issue with it is buying a d6 of Killing Damage that gets to add to existing damage, making it more effective than just 1d6 KA, given DEFs.

 

A quick house rules fix could be making characters pay points for the DC’s that the Deadly Blow adds to. But that opens a can of worms.

 

I just use an alternate (more expensive) build for it:

 

5d6 AID (Standard Effect: 15 Points) to HKA: Self Only (-1/2), OIF: Weapon (-1/2)

 

That makes the costs 12/20/25 when you add the “limited circumstances†Lims. Much more balanced, as this takes into account the damage the weapon already does – the damage a Heroic Character doesn’t pay for.

 

Furthermore, for my games I only allow 1 level to be purchased, and I don’t allow the unlimited form (only the -2 and -1/2 forms). That way PC’s only buy it if they really want it.

 

It also fits with Steve’s advice of using the more expensive build when there’s multiple ways to simulate a power.

[Markdoc]

Re: A new take on "Deadly Blow"

 

I just use an alternate (more expensive) build for it:

 

5d6 AID (Standard Effect: 15 Points) to HKA: Self Only (-1/2), OIF: Weapon (-1/2)

 

That makes the costs 12/20/25 when you add the “limited circumstances†Lims. Much more balanced, as this takes into account the damage the weapon already does – the damage a Heroic Character doesn’t pay for.

 

Yep - I've used this construct too, although I don't limit it - players can buy as much as they want. No-one has ever brought more than one level, though, I presume because of the cost (with one exception - a ghost-killing type character who had a spell that did this - the extra limitations brough the price into the acceptable range for him, but also meant it was rarely used, so no balance issues).

 

The irst thing that set off alarm bells with deadly blow was the fact that - as you have noticed - deadly blow does exactly the same as this (rules-legal) construct but for half the price.

 

cheers, Mark

[Midhir]

Re: A new take on "Deadly Blow"

 

I've adopted a few house rules to balance out deadly blow by limiting the number of times it can be taken based on what type it is (7, 5, 3 pt variety - I don't allow the all inclusive 10pt) coupled with total character points.

 

example 7 pt

1 1d6 deadly blow for 100pts

2 1d6 deadly blow for 150pts

3 1d6 deadly blow for 175pts then 1 more for each 25 pts

 

example 5 pt

1 1d6 deadly blow for 75 pts

2 1d6 deadly blow for 125 pts

3 1d6 deadly blow for 150 pts then 1 more for each 25 pts

 

The 7 pt variety can only be taken once for each type of attack it is used with.

 

The 5 pt variety can be taken twice for each type attack (Thieves back stab with a DEX roll can be bought upto 2d6 + 1d6 for a dagger (figuring 5 pts over str min) thats a 3d6k strike with a dagger in a low level fantasy game (1/2 DCV from behind and 1/2 Hit locations if out of combat and surprised means a pretty easy called shot for the head, neck or vitals).

 

Then that puts the 3pt variety at being able to take it three times for each type of attack. This being a very limited circumstance to use plus a DEX roll means it shouldn't unbalace game play since its use will be rare and have a chance to fail.

 

I like running low fantasy games (which to me is a 30/30 or 25/25 starting character and between 1 to 3 XP per normal weekly session). Although the Aid version is an effective way of raising the cost to bring it inline with the damage it makes it to costly for my PCs to purchase. In High Fantasy campaigns 150 to 250 point characters I would adopt that version.

 

I'm also considering adopting a rule to "not" allow it to be used in conjuction with a martial arts. I am seeing a trend to buy one martial art maneauver that has a good OCV/DCV bonus with some DC bonus then adding in the deadly blow. Add in a big weapon like a Great Axe and the players will only use that one maneauver and nothing else, where before deadly blow they often jocked between maneauvers to get the OCV/DCV bonuses when they needed them or the higher DC when they needed it. I think this would put the benifit of MA back in play.

[Greg]

Re: A new take on "Deadly Blow"

 

Sorry to dig this up from the grave, particularly if there's a more recent topic on the matter. The one thing that I'm really finding to be unbalancing with Deadly Blow is that a character could spend 7 points to give them +1d6 killing with their martial arts whereas they'd have to spend 24 points to get +1d6 killing by the "default" method of paying 4 points to add +1DC to a martial arts. Is there something else I'm missing to somehow make the latter even remotely appealing to a player? Obviously I could just forbid Deadly Blow, but I want to make sure I'm not missing something else.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: A new take on "Deadly Blow"

 

I think it is that Martial DCs should pretty much always be allowed, because they are bought "the hard way" and fit well into things like martial arts campains, while Deadly Blow is for things like sneak attacks and high powered weapon specialists (deadly blow on crossbow snipers is ugly)

 

If you want someone who is truely talented, go with the martial arts manuvers. If you want someone with a sneak attack use a limited deadly blow, but don't go after full deadly blow unless it fits your campain

[Cantriped]

Re: A new take on "Deadly Blow"

 

Hmm, this CSL thing is exactally what I need, I haddn't though to use those for deadly blow, but it certainly makes sense, the Normal deadly blow is probably a little overpowered, it adds three DCs to the characters weapon damage, this does it 1 DC at a time, much more precise

[Cantriped]

Re: A new take on "Deadly Blow"

 

One thing that might be appropiate to go with it though is somthing along these lines, would be a +1/2 Advantage stating that the DC's count as Base damage. or somthing.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: A new take on "Deadly Blow"

 

Hmm' date=' this CSL thing is exactally what I need, I haddn't though to use those for deadly blow, but it certainly makes sense, the Normal deadly blow is probably a little overpowered, it adds three DCs to the characters weapon damage, this does it 1 DC at a time, much more precise[/quote']

 

You can always have "sorta deadly blow" for 1 or 2 DCs and not the whole dice

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: A new take on "Deadly Blow"

 

I agree with Roy.

 

I intend to support 3 "levels" of Deadly Blow. Each "level" represents the DC bonus to the weapon/attack's base damage. The base cost is 5, 10 and 15pts respectively. In order to use Deadly Blow with an advantaged attack and gain said advantage for the enhanced attack, the advantage in question needs to be added to the cost of the Deadly Blow Talent. However, this advantage only applies if the base weapon/attack has the advantage. If they use the advantaged version of Deadly Blow with a non-advantaged attack, the advantage does not apply. The best way to build a "catch all" version of Deadly Blow is to add Variable Advantage to it. Expensive, yes, but ultimately worth it

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: A new take on "Deadly Blow"

 

yes, i've made characters like a mage who's magic missles were more potent than most, so he had a Very Deadly Blow with "affects Desolid"

 

now does VDB work with all shots in an autofire?

[Markdoc]

Re: A new take on "Deadly Blow"

 

Sorry to dig this up from the grave' date=' particularly if there's a more recent topic on the matter. The one thing that I'm really finding to be unbalancing with Deadly Blow is that a character could spend 7 points to give them +1d6 killing with their martial arts whereas they'd have to spend 24 points to get +1d6 killing by the "default" method of paying 4 points to add +1DC to a martial arts. Is there something else I'm missing to somehow make the latter even remotely appealing to a player? Obviously I could just forbid Deadly Blow, but I want to make sure I'm not missing something else.[/quote']

 

No, you're not missing something: the beef that most GMs have with Deadly blow is exactly this - it simulates things you can do with the regular rules, only much, much more cheaply. I have no problem at all with the concept of allowing characters to increase their max damage - in fact, for higher point characters I encourage it.

 

However, in my games, Deadly Blow is off the menu, permanently (as are Deadly Arrow, Deadly Spell, etc, etc). If someone wants an extra d6 of damage, fine and dandy. I simply expect them to use a rules-legal contruct to get it.

 

cheers, Mark

[Greg]

Re: A new take on "Deadly Blow"

 

Good to know. I had already had a player buy a 1DC "Deadly Blow" sort of like what's mentioned above. I might let some other people do the same and just limit it to 1DC. I thought about letting everyone buy up to 1D6, but all that'll effectively do is up the power level of the game 3DCs.