Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

[lemming]

Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

 

Oh Gawd No! Not this again!

 

This thread seems to start-up eventually on every forum I visit.

Actually it's been done here before at Enterprise vs. Star Destroyer

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

 

I don't think it's a matter of raw statistics or firepower, but of command. If the Enterprise is commanded by James T. Kirk, then my money's on the Enterprise regardless of the relative merits of Federation vs. Imperial technology. Kirk is a strategist who thinks outside the box to find solutions to problems. If he's outnumbered or outgunned, 9 times out of 10 he'll find some unorthodox means of evening the odds. Imperial commanders, OTOH, tend to be relatively stupid and arrogant, and would just blast away, not realising they've been outwitted until it's too late. If Darth Vader is aboard the Star Destroyer in question, Kirk would have a few more problems than usual, but my money's still on Kirk. Kirk's usual tactic when faced with mental powers or the like is to trick the enemy (ie. Vader) into focusing entirely on him, leaving Spock and the rest of the crew to come up with a solution or implement a solution already proposed. I don't see why it shouldn't work in this case; Vader is a typically single-minded villain. I predict Vader would lose, but personally escape destruction.

[Agent X]

Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

 

Ah' date=' no, unfortunately, the Enterprise in TOS proved that it was capable of fighting at warp speed, specifically in the episode with the Gorns and the Metrones. The Gorn ship had attacked and destroyed a Federation colony, and was being chased and fired at [i']at warp speeds[/i] by the Enterprise, when the two ships impinged on the space of the Metrones (a highly advanced, immensely powerful people who decided to 'settle' the Gorn/Federation argument by pitting the captains of each ship against eachother, mano a mano, in a (mineral rich!) wilderness arena...)

 

But yes, the ISD could avoid the Enterprise by entering hyperspace, which, as far as I can tell, is an entirely different dimension, not just regular space warped to make "faster than light" travel possible. But then, the ISD would be fleeing the field of combat, and therefore be the loser, even if it were not actually damaged.

 

The problem the Federation faces isnt ship to ship combat. Its ships win, I think, when it comes to an actual fight. The Federation's problem is that warp engines, while they provide greatly superior tactical mobility, are much slower strategically than hyperdrives. So slow, in comparison, as to be practically immobile in the stategic sense. The Empire is a galaxy spanning thing, and it can be crossed via hyperdrive in mere months, at most. Voyager gets displaced to the other side of its galaxy, and it faces a 90 year trip to get home. The Imperial strategy, then, would be to use their superior strategic mobility to mass against poorly defended Federation systems, and either induce them to surrender, or destroy them. If a System is too heavily defended, ie there are enough Federation ships there to destroy the Imperial force before it can get to the soft, immobile base or planet, then the Imperials just jump back into hyperspace, and go to another system. The Federation does not have nearly enough warships to defend everything simultaneously, which is what they would have to do against the Imperials.

Of course, the whole premise of Voyager and distance issues contradict earlier established benchmarks. It's all in what you choose to follow in Star Trek as it has a ton of contradictions. It didn't seem like it took the Kirk crew to long to get to the edge of the galaxy in the original series and I let the original series trump pretty much anything else.

[Outsider]

Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

 

Of course' date=' the whole premise of Voyager and distance issues contradict earlier established benchmarks. It's all in what you choose to follow in Star Trek as it has a ton of contradictions. It didn't seem like it took the Kirk crew to long to get to the edge of the galaxy in the original series and I let the original series trump pretty much anything else.[/quote']

 

 

True, true. After nearly 40 years, 6 movies, and 5 series, the Star Trek universe has a lot of continuity problems and contradictions. Star Wars has had less than 30 years, 5 movies, and no series... It seems like G. Lucas is working on the making it just as inconsistent as Trek though.

[Lezentauw]

Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

 

Oh Gawd No! Not this again!

 

This thread seems to start-up eventually on every forum I visit.

 

Like I always say... The victor would depend upon who is writing the script. It's kind of like the Batman vs. Captian America thread, or the Superman vs. Hulk thing. Whichever publisher has the biggest fan base (and cash) will dictate the winner. There are just too many things that writers can pull out of their as... Hat for these sorts of things to be clear cut.

 

I agree 100% with the above. While I am more of a Star Wars fan, since it is presented in a more consistent manner, I believe that ANY Enterprise ship would win soley because they are the good guys. I believe that a writer will set things up that puts the advantage to the Enterprise.

 

For this argument, some assumptions have to be made. The problem is that neither side ever agrees upon the assumptions.

 

The Enterprise has been stated to be able to destroy a world. Though I don't think that it could destroy a world the way the Death Star does. Nothing is stated that an ISD cannot do the same thing. But to be fair, since it is not stated, it should be assumed that they cannot. To use this as a basis in an argument, it has to be assumed that both worlds are figured to take the same amount of firepower to destroy. This is not neccessarily a given basis.

 

Next is the argument about both modes of FTL travel. Star Trek moves at Warp speek, and Star Wars moves at hyperspeed. As far as I understand, Star Trek ships just move faster than the speed of light, while Star Wars shift into a different dimension. While it is stated that Star Wars ships cannot fight in hyperspace, or detect another ship in hyperspace for that matter. Nothing is stated that they cannot detect a ship moving FTL in real space, like the Enterprise does. Nor is there anything stated that the Enterprise can detect ships in hyperspace either. IMO, this engagement would have to at least start in normal space at sublight speeds.

 

The next factor is the shields. Would the ISD deflector shields work the same as Star Trek shields to nullify the transporters? It is another assumption that would need to be made, for or against.

 

The next argument that I can think of, is the technology. Both are superior in their own way. If I remember correctly, ships in the Star Wars universe are capable of traversing half the Galaxy in under a week. I don't remember any ship in the Star Trek universe capable of going that fast. The Enterprise has replicators & transporters.

 

As far as firepower goes, every source that I have seen, shows the ISD has more. It is possible that this could be true, as there really is no true way to measure firepower between two ships in different universes. An ISD does not have to power weapons, like ships do in Star Trek. Each weapon works independently and not in an Array like Star Trek. Star Trek has the continious phasers and photon torpedoes.

 

Maneuverability is in the hands of the Enterprise, and that is not counting the whole fighting at Warp discussion.

 

The Enterprise can fight behind itself, while the ISD cannot. The ISD would need its fighters to keep the Enterprise out of its aft.

 

Once all the assumptions are made, then the writer has to come up with how the engagement is to take place. The Enterprise is an Explorer ship, and would be seeking first contact. The ISD is a military ship, and would be seeking to enforce the laws of the Empire.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

 

This topic should be against the law. This is a "Thought Crime" if I have ever seen one. The FBI should investigate. A death penalty show be imposed. Lapsedgamer gets the green, fuzzy, moldy cookie I have stored under the cushions of my sofa for the last 10 years because I was too afraid to touch it without the proper protective equipment. This part of the house has been off-limits until today!

 

Yes Lapsedgamer, thats right, you get the "Great Cthulhu Cookie"

 

TAKE D100 SANITY LOSS INFIDEL .....

[Mentor]

Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

 

As if the dancing girls would possibly remian loyal to the Empire in the presence of James T Kirk!

Now there is a truly wise opinion.

[Vondy]

Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

 

I don't think it's a matter of raw statistics or firepower' date=' but of command. If the Enterprise is commanded by James T. Kirk, then my money's on the Enterprise regardless of the relative merits of Federation vs. Imperial technology. Kirk is a strategist who thinks outside the box to find solutions to problems. If he's outnumbered or outgunned, 9 times out of 10 he'll find some unorthodox means of evening the odds. Imperial commanders, OTOH, tend to be relatively stupid and arrogant, and would just blast away, not realising they've been outwitted until it's too late. If Darth Vader is aboard the Star Destroyer in question, Kirk would have a few more problems than usual, but my money's still on Kirk. Kirk's usual tactic when faced with mental powers or the like is to trick the enemy (ie. Vader) into focusing entirely on him, leaving Spock and the rest of the crew to come up with a solution or implement a solution already proposed. I don't see why it shouldn't work in this case; Vader is a typically single-minded villain. I predict Vader would lose, but personally escape destruction.[/quote']

Grand Moff Tarkin - in the books at least - is a far better strategist than Vader. His death is probably what led to the ultimate downfall of the Empire. Or some such geek-drivel.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

 

This topic should be against the law. This is a "Thought Crime" if I have ever seen one. The FBI should investigate. A death penalty show be imposed. Lapsedgamer gets the green, fuzzy, moldy cookie I have stored under the cushions of my sofa for the last 10 years because I was too afraid to touch it without the proper protective equipment. This part of the house has been off-limits until today!

 

Yes Lapsedgamer, thats right, you get the "Great Cthulhu Cookie"

 

TAKE D100 SANITY LOSS INFIDEL .....

Oh, come on. This is all in good fun. By the way, I'll trade you that off-white, with unknown light pink topping, stuff from my fridge for the cookie. I can hardly smell it anymore, so it must be safe to eat.

 

Thanks you guys for all the links to the previous threads and starship stats. I knew I could count on this crowd for hours of geeky fun.

 

"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge."

Bertrand Arthur William Russell (1872 - 1970)

[Vondy]

Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

 

I agree 100% with the above. While I am more of a Star Wars fan' date=' since it is presented in a more consistent manner, I believe that ANY Enterprise ship would win soley because they are the good guys. [/quote']

What if we wait 3-5 years and call it a New Republic Star Destroyer? Same ship, new regime. What then?

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

 

Oh' date=' come on. This is all in good fun. By the way, I'll trade you that off-white, with unknown light pink topping, stuff from my fridge for the cookie. I can hardly smell it anymore, so it must be safe to eat. [/quote']

 

I never take cookies from people with Zero Sanity ....

[Lezentauw]

Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

 

What if we wait 3-5 years and call it a New Republic Star Destroyer? Same ship' date=' new regime. What then?[/quote']

 

I am not sure if this is just me, or if it really is true or not. But, when you say Imperial Star Destroyer, it means a Star Destroyer used by the Empire. Otherwise would it not be a New Republic Star Destroyer? So I was answering the question based upon how I understood it.

 

For the majority of the public, they do not know that the New Republic actually used Star Destroyers. So to them, they would still associate the Star Destroyer with the Empire. With that, I feel that the writer would still be compelled to write the story in a manner to satisfy the majority.

 

As a side note this would change the load out of the snub fighters. Standard Imperial snub fighters do not have shields, while New Rebulic ones do. All New Republic fighters also carry photon torpedoes, which cannot be said about the Imperial fighters....

[JmOz]

Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

 

Z-95's & A Wings do not, they carry concusion missiles, X, Y, B wings do however cary photon

 

Yes the NR has star destroyers, put luke in command, staffed with JA graduates and his immediate blood family and his wife, and then AND ONLY THEN is it approaching a fair fight.

 

Luke vs Kirk in a fight: LUKE

Enterprise vs Star Destroyer (Imperial class) Enterprise

Delta Flyer vs Star Destroyer: Close fight

[Vondy]

Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

 

I am not sure if this is just me, or if it really is true or not. But, when you say Imperial Star Destroyer, it means a Star Destroyer used by the Empire. Otherwise would it not be a New Republic Star Destroyer? So I was answering the question based upon how I understood it.

 

For the majority of the public, they do not know that the New Republic actually used Star Destroyers. So to them, they would still associate the Star Destroyer with the Empire. With that, I feel that the writer would still be compelled to write the story in a manner to satisfy the majority.

 

As a side note this would change the load out of the snub fighters. Standard Imperial snub fighters do not have shields, while New Rebulic ones do. All New Republic fighters also carry photon torpedoes, which cannot be said about the Imperial fighters....

Its the same ship - different regime, though, yes, it carried republic fighters instead. I think its counter to the nature of geek debate to base the outcome on "who the good guys are."

[Vondy]

Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

 

If we use star trek assumptions then the enterprise wins hands down - it can fight at warp or hyperspace or whatever (though they almost never do and that strikes me as cheesy writer's caveat).

 

If we use star wars assumptions (no fighting at warp) the enterprise still as a maneuverability and firing arc advantage, though the fighters make the scenario more complicated.

 

I would say the enterprise has an advantage, but I could see an argument made that the star destroyer could end up on top - it would depend on the commanders and creativity, I think.

[Lezentauw]

Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

 

Its the same ship - different regime' date=' though, yes, it carried republic fighters instead. I think its counter to the nature of geek debate to base the outcome on "who the good guys are."[/quote']

 

Sorry, I did not mean to just through out the counter to the discussion. To me there are enough significant differences that could affect the outcome, and they are all valid from a certain point of view. Following human nature, the "good guys" usually get these calls in their favor. So I feel that if this situation was to take place, that things would be done by the Star Trek set of rules. Which like you say, the Enterprise wins hands down.

 

Another factor, for the Star Destroyer if it used in the New Republic era. The standard practice for the NR is to have its snub fighters run escort through hyperspace. So the Star Destroyer would already have some of its fighters deployed and ready to respond to the situation. Where as, in the Imperial load out, all of the fighters would still be in the hanger bays.

 

The only real chance that the ISD would have with in the Star Trek assumptions being true, would be in the initial moments of the engagement. The ISD would have to make the first strike and do enough damage to lower shields and cripple the Enterprise. Even at reduced power, 60 turbolasers "should" have enough of an effect to drop the shields of the Enterprise. Once the Enterprise is able to go to warp, the engagement is over, as the ISD will get shelled with torpedoes in the aft. That is a very specific, and not good condition for the ISD victory.

 

With the Star Wars assumptions being true. The Enterprise is severly underpowered. It will need to use the photon torpedoes to match the damage of the ISD's turbolasers. It will still need to position itself in the aft of the ISD, but it will have a harder time getting there. The Imperial snub fighters would not really pose much of a problem, as the Enterprise could just beam the pilots to space. The pilots already wear vaccuum suites, and the Tie fighters do not have shields. So it would not violate any moral issues. Using the teleporters in such a manner would give the Enterprise more mutlitasking capabilities. The question then would be, is the Enterprise maneuverable enough in real space to make it to the target location intact?

[Guest Major Tom]

Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

 

SW ships use proton torpedoes, not photon torpedoes.

 

Major Tom

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

 

As far as beaming the pilots of the Starfighters into space is concerned;

 

Don't forget that X-Wings, Y-Wings and B-Wings all have deflector Shields.

 

I'm not sure about A-Wings though. I think they go shieldless and rely on their supreme maneuverability to avoid getting hit, in which case, once the transporter locked on to them (a difficult prospect considering the raw speed and agility of an A-Wing) the pilot of an A-wing would be a frozen chunk of flesh floating in space....

[Lupus]

Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

 

The whole problem with this thread is that any real logical analysis is impossible. Cherry-picking is bound to happen. Talking about Star Trek: referencing TOS over Next Gen, for instance, is cherry picking (not necessarily undeserved, however, since TOS and NG were virtually different universes). Even if you do confine it to TOS, however, what /parts/ of TOS? There were a lot of different writers doing different things, and each one-upping the other in the early days. I'm not slamming Trek for this, 'cause they were the pioneers. I think someone on the last thread said something to the extent of 'they were figuring out what they were doing; no-one had thought of chronicling a history of the future by that point.' Fair enough, too. But it does make it difficult to look at any episode and say 'THIS is what the Enterprise is capable of.'

 

I'm gonna stay out of this argument, because I have too many bad memories. Frankly, the last thread was by far the most heated discussion I've ever been in on these boards. People complain about the NGD political threads? That one was BY FAR WORSE.

 

Much appreciation to those people on this thread (D-Man springs to mind, though it's not him alone) who are being even-handed and suggesting different options according to which universe's rules apply. I find that constructive. You guys rock.

[Asperion]

Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

 

While the ISD does possess many, many more weapons, I still would have to give the Enterprise the edge. The SW shields were designed only to stop energy attacks as shown in episode 2. At the start of the diversionary battle, there were rifles and tanks making a constant barrage at the shields and nothing got through. Then the robots simply walked up and passed through the shields as though they were not even there. ST shields were designed to repeal both physical (torpedo) and energy (phaser) attacks. While the Enterprise's shields are up the ISD can make their shots and very little will actually penetrate the Enterprise defenses. The Enterprise could shoot torpedos at the ISD and the entire shot will reach the ship, doing full damage to the ISD. Even figuring in the increased toughness of the ISD design, the Enterprise would eventually manage to torpedo enough holes the the ISD to make them unable to do anything if not totally destroyed. The final result: ISD destroyed; Enterprise medium damage with shilds at half power.

[Tim]

Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

 

Asperion brought up the sheild difference, but forgot the weapon range difference. ST weapons have ranges that extend well beyond visual. Battles are initiated ad 100-1000 KM range. SW weapons seems to be close in weapons only. All battles tke place within a few tens of km.(ie: less than 100)

 

I beleive that ST Phasers would have trouble penetrating SW sheilds, but the Photon Torps would easily get thru. SW Turbolasers, once they got within range, wiould shred ST sheilds. Remember one-two shots by phasers usually drops the sheild power quite a bit.

 

Accuracy of Fire: ST has shown that they can pinpoint fire. SW needs Fighters to pinpoint fire.

 

I'm not calling it. It's an exercise in futility alongside the Cap vs. Bats thread.

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

 

ok, lets throw some napalm on the fire

 

how about Vorlons or Shadows vs the Borg?

[lazarus]

Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

 

Just one nitpick, which has been bothering me all thread:

 

NCC-1701A, not NC.

 

Laz

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

 

Just one nitpick, which has been bothering me all thread:

 

NCC-1701A, not NC.

 

Laz

Sorry, typo. Thanks for catching that.

 

One question. I seem to remember that SW ships had to get away from large masses to go into hyperspace. I also seem to remember that ST ships had a similar requirement before going to warp. I think that ST writers ignored that sometimes though. Would being near large spacial masses, like planets or stars even up the fight?

 

If I were an Imperial commander? Could I change the rules of engagement by setting the battle in a planetary system? Sure the Enterprise could avoid combat entirely, but I wouldn't count that as a victory.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer

 

While the ISD does possess many' date=' many more weapons, I still would have to give the Enterprise the edge. The SW shields were designed only to stop energy attacks as shown in episode 2. At the start of the diversionary battle, there were rifles and tanks making a constant barrage at the shields and nothing got through. Then the robots simply walked up and passed through the shields as though they were not even there. ST shields were designed to repeal both physical (torpedo) and energy (phaser) attacks. While the Enterprise's shields are up the ISD can make their shots and very little will actually penetrate the Enterprise defenses. The Enterprise could shoot torpedos at the ISD and the entire shot will reach the ship, doing full damage to the ISD. Even figuring in the increased toughness of the ISD design, the Enterprise would eventually manage to torpedo enough holes the the ISD to make them unable to do anything if not totally destroyed. The final result: ISD destroyed; Enterprise medium damage with shilds at half power.[/quote']

 

Hmmm. Something about those Shields in episode 1; I think whether or not something can get through the sheilds depends on its velocity/kinetic Energy. Remember that the Battledroids had to move very slowly while walking through the sheilds...they couldn't just "stroll" through, the slowed down their marching pace, eased through the sheilds, then resumed pace and began firing.

 

But SW shields have blocked physical objects in the past;

--RotJ Rebel fleet exits Hyperspace and prepares to attack, but the Death Star II's sheild is still working! Pull up! Too late, some of the ships impact the DS's sheild and go boom.

 

But also physical objects have provided a threat despite shields;

--ESB The Millenium Falcon bobs and weaves through the dense ateroid field with Tie Fighters on its tail. Despite shields at nearly 100%, the small freighter is constantly rocked by a barrage of small asteroids. Meanwhile the pursuing ISD's enter the asteroid field at Vader's behest despite the danger....and constantly blast Asteroids big enough to be a serious threat. Did the Asteroids ignor the sheilds entirely or merely weaken them? Hard to say.

 

--TPM Anakin goes flying recklessly into battle and after taking a glancing hit, flies directly through the enemy's sheilds into one of the ships landing bays without any damage to his frail fightercraft.

 

From this evidence, we know that some shields definatly block both matter and energy. Many sheilds however, seem only to block energy or perhaps block attacks based on their kinetic energy allowing slow moving objects through while it takes the energy of faster moving objects and uses it to redirect them.

 

Perhaps the Star Wars univers is advanced enough to make use of multiple types of specialty sheilds.

 

For example: In the RPG SPACE MASTER from ICE, they developed 3 different types of shields over time. These were;

 

Absorbtion Shields: These types of sheilds attempted to absorb and dissipate the kinetic energy of attacks aimed at them. They tended to work a little better against energy weapons than against physical projectiles.

 

Deflector Shields: aka Velocity Shields. This sheild took the kinetic energy of the attack and attempted to redirect it away. Worked very well vs fast moving projectiles (because of the mass) and fairly well against beam weapons that moved near c (because of the velocity) but less well against slow moving projectiles and beams that moved slower-than-light.

 

Barrier Shields: These shields blocked absolutely everything. You could make your house out of a barrier shield, provided you had a generator good enough to power the thing indefinately. In Hero terms, this would be a Force Wall with a very high Defense.

 

It may be that Star Wars is capable of doing all these things. I'm not sure how Star Trek shields work (I'm not the trekkie, that my friend Robert). can someone enlighten us on that?