lapsedgamer Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 I am starting to like these hypothetical versus threads. I'll throw this one out. In head to head combat, which is superior the Enterprise from the Star Trek movies of the 80's (Wrath of Khan/Search for Spock) or the Imperial Star Destoyer shown in Star Wars (not the later Super Destroyer). I think this might be a fairly good match up. Basic rules: There are no other ships of the line involved. The ships are limited to their crews and the equipment that they are shown to have access to in the movies, including fighters and shuttles. If you have some knowledge of other capabilities based on canon products please include that. I realize tha the laws of rubber physics are a little different in each universe, but that might make this a little more interesting. Input about individual characters is welcome (more fuel for the fire). As always this is meant to be good-natured. Basically, this is meant to be kind of conversation I would have over beer and pizza with fellow fan boys and girls. You know, the kind where other people who aren't geeky look at you like you've lost your mind. Have fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aroooo Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer Things not to talk about at lunch: politics, religion, women, and sci-fi battles While I won't contribute directly to this thread (there are plenty of them on the boards), I will re-contribute this link: http://www.spacebattles.com/ Very cool stuff Aroooo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParitySoul Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer Hmm. Well, both have shields but firepower is different. The Star Destroyer has more direct shot blasters and ion cannons if memory serves me right. The Enterprises has their phasers. Both have tractorbeams. Thought fight: Enterprise Continuous beam assults vs. Star Destoryer Barage style attack. Things in Enterprise's favor. Teleporters & Photon Torpedos. Things in Star Destroyer's favor. Fighters & larger crew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edsel Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer Oh Gawd No! Not this again! This thread seems to start-up eventually on every forum I visit. Like I always say... The victor would depend upon who is writing the script. It's kind of like the Batman vs. Captian America thread, or the Superman vs. Hulk thing. Whichever publisher has the biggest fan base (and cash) will dictate the winner. There are just too many things that writers can pull out of their as... Hat for these sorts of things to be clear cut. My favorite would be the Enterpirse because I like Star Trek better. I could come up with all sorts of pseudo-scientific reasons why. But I am sure an equally rabbid Star Wars fan could do the same. With that being said I think I'll beam-up now before the fire starts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer I like Star Wars better but I have to give it to the Enterprise. It can fight in warp space. Star Wars technology doesn't seem to allow for something like that. The Enterprise is stated in at least one or two episodes to be able to destroy a planet. It takes a moon-sized ship in Star Wars to make a similar claim. I think the Star Trek technology is written much larger and I think it's simply too much for the Star Wars technology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer The Enterprise is stated in at least one or two episodes to be able to destroy a planet. It takes a moon-sized ship in Star Wars to make a similar claim. This has been brought up before, and it's usually argued that the Enterprise could make life impossible on a planet, effectively destroying it, whereas the Death Star actually turned the planet into rubble. It's an apples and oranges comparison (so goes the past argument). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsider Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer In my mind, the rubber physics is what rules the day. SW ships only fight at sub-light speeds. No combat while they are in hyperspace. ST ships, though they -usually- seem to fight at sub-warp speeds also, can fight at trans warp speeds. The Enterprise just swoops and shoots at warp 2, and picks the SD apart. Given the SD's limitation to light speed detection and light speed weapons fire, it will never be able to hit the Enterprise at all, since the Enterprise on its approach, will arrive before the photons 'heralding' it will, and will outrun any mere light speed return fire on its exit. Rinse, repeat. The only way the Imperials would stand a chance is if A) their hyperspace interdictor worked on ST warp engines, or they had some Jedi/Sith gunners who could anticipate where to shoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer NC 1701 (NOT A) survived an attack that could destroy planets in the original series (the ship looked like a rocky Ice cream cone) so I give it to ST unless vader sends over some Tw'lk dancing girls... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsider Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer As if the dancing girls would possibly remian loyal to the Empire in the presence of James T Kirk! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheImperialKhan Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer Enterprise hands down. I like Star Wars and all but lets be honest here. I mean when did you ever see a blaster disintegrate its target like a phaser can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSoardGraphite Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer In my mind, the rubber physics is what rules the day. SW ships only fight at sub-light speeds. No combat while they are in hyperspace. ST ships, though they -usually- seem to fight at sub-warp speeds also, can fight at trans warp speeds. The Enterprise just swoops and shoots at warp 2, and picks the SD apart. Given the SD's limitation to light speed detection and light speed weapons fire, it will never be able to hit the Enterprise at all, since the Enterprise on its approach, will arrive before the photons 'heralding' it will, and will outrun any mere light speed return fire on its exit. Rinse, repeat. The only way the Imperials would stand a chance is if A) their hyperspace interdictor worked on ST warp engines, or they had some Jedi/Sith gunners who could anticipate where to shoot. All an Imperial Star Destroyer would need to do is go into Hyperspace and the battle is over. Draw. No winner, no loser. We'd get nowhere if the Enterprise tried to fight an ISD at Transwarp speeds (besides, the Enterprise would overshoot the ISD before even Data could target and fire accurately) The battle would have to be played out at Sublight speeds.... In which case I'd give it to the ISD hands down. A single ISD is loaded down with more weapons than a whole fleet of Federation Starships... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer This has been brought up before' date=' and it's usually argued that the Enterprise could make life impossible on a planet, effectively destroying it, whereas the Death Star actually turned the planet into rubble. It's an apples and oranges comparison (so goes the past argument).[/quote'] Just what would happen to a planet if enough heat to cause the oceans to evaporate completely away in seconds was fired down to the surface? I ask because that's what one episode claimed the Enterprise was capable of doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer All an Imperial Star Destroyer would need to do is go into Hyperspace and the battle is over. Draw. No winner, no loser. We'd get nowhere if the Enterprise tried to fight an ISD at Transwarp speeds (besides, the Enterprise would overshoot the ISD before even Data could target and fire accurately) The battle would have to be played out at Sublight speeds.... In which case I'd give it to the ISD hands down. A single ISD is loaded down with more weapons than a whole fleet of Federation Starships... Loaded down with many, many wimpier weapons. How many thousands of Incans were slaughtered by a 150 Spaniards? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSoardGraphite Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer If you want to simply go "by the numbers" try this page: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html Yes, its a Star Wars site, but the numbers don't lie. Oh and btw, its comparing the Enterprise-D to one of the Troop Transports seen in Episode 2. ISD's are several orders of magnitude more powerul.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSoardGraphite Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer And the full site: http://www.stardestroyer.net/toc.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbsousa Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer Jeff Russel's Starship Dimensions is the first place I go when such nerdy thoughts occur to me. He has scale pictures of many sci fi vessels, stations, and monsters. The pictures can be moved about for comparison, and each picture has a pixel to meters scale. The attached picture is at a scale of 2 meters per pixel. TOS Enterprise, and ST:TMP Enterprise don't look like much of a match, but I don't think a collision between ST:TNG Enterprise and an ISD would leave either ship operational... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer If you want to simply go "by the numbers" try this page: http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html Yes, its a Star Wars site, but the numbers don't lie. Oh and btw, its comparing the Enterprise-D to one of the Troop Transports seen in Episode 2. ISD's are several orders of magnitude more powerul.... The site you are using is cherry-picking in the extreme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaeto Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer All it would take is for the Enterprise to transport a half of a gram of anti-matter onto the bridge of the Star Destroyer and No more SD. And the SD depends more on armor than shields so it wouldn't be able to block the transport beam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer The ISD simply doesn't have the range to fight effectively, even if you disallow warp combat for the Enterprise. In Empire Strikes Back novelization, 5 Star Destroyers are within visual range of the Millenium Falcon, but can't shoot. It takes about a minute or so for them to close within shooting range. Star Trek has many examples of starships shooting at distances well outside visual range. Apparently, Star Wars turbolasers aren't true lasers. They seem to travel at well under light speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer Just what would happen to a planet if enough heat to cause the oceans to evaporate completely away in seconds was fired down to the surface? I ask because that's what one episode claimed the Enterprise was capable of doing. Well, it's conceivable that exactly enough heat could be projected to evaporate the oceans and leave a bunch of desiccated fish on a dry rock, however, it's unlikely that that level of precise control would be required in a military weapon. Even if the extra energy were enough to break apart the planet, I would expect it would end up as several large chunks rather than the gravel left behind from Alderaan. However, assuming this claim wasn't pure bluff (I don't recall the episode), I will concede the firepower difference, as this was the Death Star, and not an ISD. Makes you wonder why the wars with the Klingons and Romulans, et al, weren't much nastier, though, if a typical starship could totally obliterate an unprotected planet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSoardGraphite Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer The site you are using is cherry-picking in the extreme. Oh I agree completely (as I mentioned) this guy's site is highly biased toward the Star Wars side of the spectrum, however his numbers are interesting. I'm going to search more on the web to see if I can find more impartial comparison. He does make an excellent point about the differences in Canonical and non-canonical sources in ST and SW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSoardGraphite Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer An interesting site, biased toward Trek: http://www.st-v-sw.net/BoB/bobSTSWcompare.html#Planets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSoardGraphite Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer Direct quotes from ST and SW tv and film sources (all canonical) which give indications of starship capability and limitations. Note that ST technical aspects are far more detailed than those of SW, which are more vague (as was GL's intention) http://www.holonet.iwarp.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsider Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer All an Imperial Star Destroyer would need to do is go into Hyperspace and the battle is over. Draw. No winner, no loser. We'd get nowhere if the Enterprise tried to fight an ISD at Transwarp speeds (besides, the Enterprise would overshoot the ISD before even Data could target and fire accurately) The battle would have to be played out at Sublight speeds.... In which case I'd give it to the ISD hands down. A single ISD is loaded down with more weapons than a whole fleet of Federation Starships... Ah, no, unfortunately, the Enterprise in TOS proved that it was capable of fighting at warp speed, specifically in the episode with the Gorns and the Metrones. The Gorn ship had attacked and destroyed a Federation colony, and was being chased and fired at at warp speeds by the Enterprise, when the two ships impinged on the space of the Metrones (a highly advanced, immensely powerful people who decided to 'settle' the Gorn/Federation argument by pitting the captains of each ship against eachother, mano a mano, in a (mineral rich!) wilderness arena...) But yes, the ISD could avoid the Enterprise by entering hyperspace, which, as far as I can tell, is an entirely different dimension, not just regular space warped to make "faster than light" travel possible. But then, the ISD would be fleeing the field of combat, and therefore be the loser, even if it were not actually damaged. The problem the Federation faces isnt ship to ship combat. Its ships win, I think, when it comes to an actual fight. The Federation's problem is that warp engines, while they provide greatly superior tactical mobility, are much slower strategically than hyperdrives. So slow, in comparison, as to be practically immobile in the stategic sense. The Empire is a galaxy spanning thing, and it can be crossed via hyperdrive in mere months, at most. Voyager gets displaced to the other side of its galaxy, and it faces a 90 year trip to get home. The Imperial strategy, then, would be to use their superior strategic mobility to mass against poorly defended Federation systems, and either induce them to surrender, or destroy them. If a System is too heavily defended, ie there are enough Federation ships there to destroy the Imperial force before it can get to the soft, immobile base or planet, then the Imperials just jump back into hyperspace, and go to another system. The Federation does not have nearly enough warships to defend everything simultaneously, which is what they would have to do against the Imperials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Re: Enterprise NC1701A vs. Imperial Star Destroyer Ah' date=' no, unfortunately, the Enterprise in TOS proved that it was capable of fighting at warp speed, specifically in the episode with the Gorns and the Metrones. [/quote'] 1) warp and hyperspace may not be the same thing. 2) the two universes operate under different assumptions of what is and isn't possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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