"You're not a REAL Hero!"

[Kristopher]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

Quite often, a superpowered character doesn't choose which powers he has -- most heroic origins don't let the character go through a class catalog and get a major in brickness with minors in flight and enhanced senses. Should those who don't happen to have "wholesome, standup powers" just not bother trying to make a difference?

 

What's more important? Taking out the criminals and villains, saving lives, preventing/containing disasters, and otherwise thwarting chaos and doom, or living up someone's notion of "hero"? The characters (and to be honest, the players) obsessed with some halfass notion of, how to describe it, "red blooded blah blah blah" are drifting away from heroism and into the realm of the gloryhound.

 

"Those who can't engage in manly fisticuffs with wrongdoers need not apply!"

[cutsleeve]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

I think any hero who would worry about what others thought of him because of his powers or how he uses his powers are not Hero's theyre publicity hounds.

 

Basically what im saying is who cares what other people think about the powers your character has if you choose to fight crime or evil or stupidity then your as much a hero as any of them.

 

A hero isnt marked by being a person who puts himself into risk for something or someone. a hero is the person who chooses to do the right thing rather then just minding his own business and walking away.

 

Risk has nothing to do with heroism people just think it does and thats why we see less and less heroes nowadays.

[jackalope]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

A hero isnt marked by being a person who puts himself into risk for something or someone. a hero is the person who chooses to do the right thing rather then just minding his own business and walking away.

 

A guy in line in front of you at the supermarket drops his wallet as he goes to slip in his back pocket, and doesn't realize it. He starts to walk off. You grab his wallet and yell "Hey buddy, you dropped your wallet." He takes his wallet, thanks you, and leaves.

 

Now I ask you, are you a hero? No. Because doing the right thing is not heroic. It's called "being a decent human being". Being heroic requires going above and beyond one's duties. Being a good person is every person's duty, being a hero is not. You can be a good person and not be a hero. But being a good person doesn't make you a hero.

[cutsleeve]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

Human being arent born decent we are genetically predisposed to being cruel, evil, greedy, and destructive. It takes a better person then your average human to be just decent. Hero's are just people who do decent things when their better judgement tells them not to.

 

If i where the guy who lost my wallet and someone walked up and gave it back to me yes id consider that person as much a hero as anyone other hero.

 

Being a decent human being is the basis of heroism.

[jackalope]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

Human being arent born decent we are genetically predisposed to being cruel' date=' evil, greedy, and destructive. It takes a better person then your average human to be just decent. Hero's are just people who do decent things when their better judgement tells them not to. [/quote']

 

Well, the first sentence is a (bad) mixed metaphor and factually incorrect, as for the rest I disagree with your opinion, but you're welcome to it.

[cutsleeve]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

Basically differances in personal perspective. You have yours I have mine.

[Metaphysician]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

You know, shrinkers and invisibles are only not going to draw attacks if they aren't actually *doing* anything. Otherwise, the enemy is probably going to focus on doing something to get rid of them, so they can deal with opponents they can perceive. . .

[Vondy]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

Heroism is largely sculpted by cultural morays and personal perspective. This strikes me as being an "eye of the beholder" debate.

[jackalope]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

Heroism is largely sculpted by cultural morays and personal perspective. This strikes me as being an "eye of the beholder" debate.

 

That's true, but there is a relatively useful objective guidestick: the dictionary.

 

heroic

adj.

1. Of, relating to, or resembling the heroes of literature, legend, or myth.

2. Having, displaying, or characteristic of the qualities appropriate to a hero; courageous: heroic deeds.

3. 1. Impressive in size or scope; grand: heroic undertakings.

2. Of a size or scale that is larger than life: heroic sculpture.

 

hero

n. pl. heroes

1. In mythology and legend, a man, often of divine ancestry, who is endowed with great courage and strength, celebrated for his bold exploits, and favored by the gods.

2. A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war.

3. A person noted for special achievement in a particular field: the heroes of medicine. See Synonyms at celebrity.

4. The principal male character in a novel, poem, or dramatic presentation.

 

This is why I reject cutsleeves argument that giving someone their wallet is heroic. Because it's not grand, impressive, or any of that. It's far too ordinary. Anyone can, and should do it, and doing it is just decency, it's not heroic.

 

Now, we can argue over what qualifies as a risk, and all that. But doing good deeds is not heroic in of itself. It really has to go above and beyond the oridinary, and should involve risk or sacrafice, and cutsleeves' cynicism aside, I think returning wallets doesn't qualify.

[cutsleeve]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

I also said that doing the decent thing is the basis of heroism.

 

Im sure the 911 terrorists where heroes to someone. That Does Not make them heroes in my eyes. Even though they certainly "risked or sacrificed his or her life" , and to some it seemed that destroying the twin towers and its deathtoll was "Of a size or scale that is larger than life"

 

Heroism has to be based on something more then being big and flashy or risking ones life.

 

The arguement used against mentalists, shrinkers, and summoners (that they arent on the front line and dont risk their lives the way a tank does) could be used the same way against people in the military such as Artillary, Scouts, or Air Support. Even those these fields have probably saved the lives of many soldiers.

 

Its not cynicism to see little things as heroics in every day life. To only see heroics in the grand and the glorious devalues the little decent things people do.

[Niles]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

Okay' date=' that's cool. I have a campaign I hope to start up full time in Vibora bay. Not only is the premise a half way house where former supervillains do good deeds as a super hero team to buy their time off (It's not suicide squad level deadly... normally) [/quote']Hermit, have you ever read Kurt Busiek's The Liberty Project? It deals with similar issues.

[jackalope]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

Heroism has to be based on something more then being big and flashy or risking ones life.

 

2. A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war.

 

Got it covered.

 

The arguement used against mentalists, shrinkers, and summoners (that they arent on the front line and dont risk their lives the way a tank does) could be used the same way against people in the military such as Artillary, Scouts, or Air Support. Even those these fields have probably saved the lives of many soldiers.

 

It can be, is, and it's generally accepted as true. A frontline infantry man is generally seen as more heroic than a radar operator miles from combat.

 

Its not cynicism to see little things as heroics in every day life.

 

Never said it was. This: "Human being arent born decent we are genetically predisposed to being cruel, evil, greedy, and destructive. It takes a better person then your average human to be just decent." is cynicism.

 

To only see heroics in the grand and the glorious devalues the little decent things people do.

 

And yet, calling trivial acts of common deceny heroic doesn't devalue truly heroic acts that involve genuine risk and sacrafice? I think it does.

[Vondy]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

That's true, but there is a relatively useful objective guidestick: the dictionary.

 

Different cultures also use different languages and their word equivalents often carry different connotations.

[jackalope]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

Different cultures also use different languages and their word equivalents often carry different connotations.

 

Ah...well, yes, but if we're going to introduce cultural relativism into our definition of heroism, then by some measures some Nazis are heroes in some sense, some PLO terrorists are heroes in some sense, Pol Pot is a hero some sense, John Wayne Gacy is a hero in some sense, etc.

 

Still, it is worth considering different cultural conceptions of heroism, even one's that are incompatible with the mores of our own culture. Trickster heroes are like this, heroes whose heroic acts are also frequently criminal acts or transgressions of taboos. Trickster heroes are never popular with the "establishment", but are celebrated by the disenfranchised for their fearlessness in the face of the establishment.

[BNakagawa]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

Agreed' date=' Bricks are wimpy girly men because they're bullet proof while most of the Mystics and Mentalists are not.[/quote']

 

Thanks to the stun lottery, there isn't a brick in the world that is truly bullet proof. (assuming they take stun and how many published bricks don't)

 

Bricks face risk of another type in that they usually have the worst DCVs of any combatant and have to eat more than their share of attacks. (closing with your enemy exposes you to more attacks than hanging back and using LOS powers or sending your summoned critters in to play the role of the brick)

[BNakagawa]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

You know' date=' shrinkers and invisibles are only not going to draw attacks if they aren't actually *doing* anything. Otherwise, the enemy is probably going to focus on doing something to get rid of them, so they can deal with opponents they can perceive. . .[/quote']

 

That's not entirely true. There are lots of ways for shrinkers or invisible characters to be effective while still avoiding detection.

 

You could make them into move through/by artists, give them mental powers, optimize them for throwing things at people and any number of other ways of being effective without drawing attacks. There are things more abusive than invisible stretching bricks, but they're pretty few and far between.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

Thanks to the stun lottery' date=' there isn't a brick in the world that is truly bullet proof. (assuming they take stun and how many published bricks don't)[/quote']

 

Regardless, the "SuperGuy isn't as much of a Hero - Johnny Normal Guest star is more heroic because he could have been hurt, but took selfless action anyway" moral is a staple of Silver and Bronze Age comics. Superman, Marvel Family and Thor scenes leap specifically to mind, but there's lots more out there.

 

How much courage does it take to stand in a hail of bullets if you're bulletproof? Even if some STUN might get through, you'll recover eventually.

[Kristopher]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

IMO, anyone who uses their special abilities to help others, fight injustice, etc, is at least well on the way to being heroic, especially in a world where most people would use those abilities to get rich and look out for #1.

 

Even if bullets can't hurt a brick, there are plenty of things in a superheroic genre that can, and every day he might have to face one or more of them just because he took up the mantle. He sacrifices some or all of a normal life, and might be at risk of losing everything, just because he refused to stand by and watch. What more do you want?

[ghost-angel]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

What I've gathered so far, from some posts at least, is this:

 

If you can stand there and take the hit, because that's your power, you can't possibly be a Hero because you didn't risk anything but you have saved a life by dong so.

 

I'm pretty sure the person whose life was just saved will consider you a Hero by virtue of standing in the way.

 

A Hero is someone who is GIVEN that label by someone else who believes they acted in such a manner by virtue of their actions. Even if they have abilities that allow them to act with a certain impunity in given situations.

 

Are you less a Hero because you saved a baby from a fire when you're FireProof Man? Not to the mother of that baby you aren't.

 

To discuss "Heroic Deeds" without context, social and cultural relativism is pointless.

 

To follow some of these arguements out to the next level, no superhuman can be a Hero because their very powers exclude them from the title by preventing them from being "in harms way" if they use those powers intelligently and correctly.

 

-Invisible Man who fights from the shadows can't be a hero when he takes down the bank robbers because he didn't risk his physical person to do so?

-Bulletproof Boy can't be a hero when he takes down the bank robbers by stepping in front of them and punching them out while their bullets bounced off because he didn't risk his physical person to do so?

-Mind Master who mentally blasted the bank robbers from the cafe across the street can't be a hero because she didn't risk her physical person to do so?

 

Seems kind of silly to me when each of the above used the gifts given them to help society out from within their own limitations and abilities is disqualified from the title of "Hero."

 

A Hero, in my mind, is someone who selflessly uses their gifts and abilities to help society out, and the people within that society. Be it your normal fire fighter who goes into the blazing building or Torch Woman who does it.

 

Sure, in many canses personal risk will come into it. But that should not be, by any sense, a requirement of the status or title of "Hero" which has only cultural relevance anyway. It's a subjective term, one man's Hero is another man's Monster. It's all in how you look at it.

[jackalope]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

That's not entirely true. There are lots of ways for shrinkers or invisible characters to be effective while still avoiding detection.

 

You could make them into move through/by artists, give them mental powers, optimize them for throwing things at people and any number of other ways of being effective without drawing attacks. There are things more abusive than invisible stretching bricks, but they're pretty few and far between.

 

Then there's the whole Extra-Dimensional Movement to the "Microverse" combined with a Transdimensional NND attack.

 

That's not only vicious, it's darn near impossible to attack back. I mean really, who carries around transdimensional weapons that can attack into the "Microverse"?

 

I mean, the Atom used that method of attack for years and years without fail before Deathstroke the Terminator finally put some points into one (a laser pointer).

[jackalope]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

To follow some of these arguements out to the next level' date=' no superhuman can be a Hero because their very powers exclude them from the title by preventing them from being "in harms way" if they use those powers intelligently and correctly.[/quote']

 

I think that in order to qualify as a hero, a person has to act from a genuinely noble intention, make some sort of sacrifice and/or take some sort of risk.

 

That qualifies someone as a hero. But not all heroes are the same. Some acts of heroism are more heroic than others. What makes one heroic act more heroic than another is the intention, the potential of risk, the sacrifice, and the value preserved or created by the act. However, too much risk, too much sacrafice for too little value, and heroism become foolhardiness - though frequently luck is the only thing that seperates heroism from foolishness. Heroism without the noble intention is selfish action at best, villainy at worst.

 

One could make an attempt to formulize what I'm talking about:

 

A=I(R+S)V(V-(R+S)/M

If A > 0 then A = H

If A = 0 then A = N

If A < 0 then A = V

A

ction,

I

ntent,

R

isk,

S

acrifice,

V

alue,

M

otive,

H

eroism,

N

eutral,

V

illany

 

We could start setting values on things (entirely subjective, of course), but I fear we've wandered into Hybrid territory.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

What I've gathered so far, from some posts at least, is this:

 

If you can stand there and take the hit, because that's your power, you can't possibly be a Hero because you didn't risk anything but you have saved a life by dong so.

**********************************************************

Are you less a Hero because you saved a baby from a fire when you're FireProof Man? Not to the mother of that baby you aren't.

**********************************************************

To follow some of these arguements out to the next level, no superhuman can be a Hero because their very powers exclude them from the title by preventing them from being "in harms way" if they use those powers intelligently and correctly.

 

-Invisible Man who fights from the shadows can't be a hero when he takes down the bank robbers because he didn't risk his physical person to do so?

-Bulletproof Boy can't be a hero when he takes down the bank robbers by stepping in front of them and punching them out while their bullets bounced off because he didn't risk his physical person to do so?

-Mind Master who mentally blasted the bank robbers from the cafe across the street can't be a hero because she didn't risk her physical person to do so?

**********************************************************

A Hero, in my mind, is someone who selflessly uses their gifts and abilities to help society out, and the people within that society.

 

I'm not sure how many of those posts are seriously challenging the heroism of such characters. Mine are more a rebuttal to earlier posts. If InvisibleMan isn't a hero because he doesn't take personal risks by "standing there and taking it", how can InvulnerableMan, who stands there and takes it because he knows he's at no personal risk, be considered "more heroic"?

 

To me, it's the last statement that sums it up. Why is Invisible Man a hero? Because instead of using his powers and abilities to enrich himself (whether legally or not), he uses them for the betterment of others. Whether he gets shot, or even shot at, in so doing is irrelevant.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

Hermit' date=' have you ever read Kurt Busiek's [i']The Liberty Project[/i]? It deals with similar issues.

 

Seconded. I understand About Comics is soon to release a compilation of those old Liberty Project issues, if you haven't read the originals.

[Titan59]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

I think that the reason certain types of characters are not percieved heroic is that they are often played by certain types of players. Invisible Desolid Sniper Man, in my experience, is usually played by the sort of wargamer/powergamer who is interested in WINNING as he percieves it, and not roleplaying heroes or anything else as such. Winning in this case is usually either staying alive at all costs or playing "my character can take out your character and your character cant do anything about it" mind games.

 

I realise that this is a gross generalisation and I hasten to add I have seen a fair number of heroic mentalist/desolid/invisible types in my twenty odd years of playing Hero, but there is just something about these character types that does seem to appeal to a certain sort of rabid powergamer. Its one reason I think they get a bad name.

[ghost-angel]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

I think that in order to qualify as a hero' date=' a person has to act from a genuinely noble intention, make some sort of sacrifice and/or take some sort of risk.[/quote']

 

Those are certainly values we place on the term Hero in our society and world, but then our world doesn't have bullet proof flame throwing invisible mentalists.

 

In a world with Superheroes as seen in comics I have a feeling the definition of Hero would change appropriately.

 

The noble intention would simply be helping society out with no obligations forcing them to do so ... the supers choose to help.

The sacrafice would be their time, effort and possibly even their 'normal' lives.

the risk might be mundane to us, possibly giving up the idea of a family and steady job in favor of helping society.

 

All of those qualify someone as Hero, they stop being normal by virtue of circumstance and instead of becoming selfish villains or reclusive hermits they put their underwear on the outside and started helping the world out a little bit at a time.

 

Aside from odd fashion blunders they qualify as hero's in my book.