"You're not a REAL Hero!"

[Hermit]

Mind Controllers.... other psychic types, shapeshifters who pose as your best friend, mystics who summon unspeakable things to serve them, or unseen ambushers/snipers: They all have something in common, by some folks standards they cheat.

 

Well, they might not see it as cheating, these are the gifts they have, the powers they possess, but the thread about Alpha Maleness and what it might entail got me thinking. I noticed a strong disrespect among some for shall we say, those concepts who do not engage in a normal straight up fight?

 

This is a personal preference, so no worries on the player side. What I want to know is how often do you play this up in setting if any? Which powers/methods get the least trust in your game worlds? When you played characters with such, did the stigma affect them any really? Do even fellow (NPC or PC) heroes share the public's disdain?

[JmOz]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

Not that it has come up but:

 

Psi's

Shapeshifters

Desolids

 

all aren less than trusted as a group

[Blue Jogger]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

Shirkers - (Our nickname for shrinkers)

 

"Ah, now we will attack you four...."

***SHRINK!***

"three. The three of you that we can see."

 

Shapeshifters / Monsters / Bug Aliens - Especially those with sharp teeth, claws or tenticles

Dealmakers - The ones that make deals or compromises with the villians

Duplicators - Especially when it was learned that an extra one was kept in hiding except for desperate emergencies. "You mean there was really three of you?"

 

Oddly enough, the heroes required the shapeshifter to not use his power so they could trust him. But they appreciated him covering for their secret identities, at least they hoped it was him... Even though they told him to never use his shapeshifting power except to look like his heroic form.

 

Dealmakers aren't allowed to wheel and deal before combat except when combat obviously won't work.

 

Monsters must act in a civilized manner no matter how much they want to chew on the bad guys. One character I played (a werewolf) wore a helmet and a suit of armor that kept his jaws closed so that he wouldn't be tempted to claw or bite (it also was required to be a sealed suit because they were going into a contaminated area). He also passed off his werewolf powers as powered armor because werewolves were hunted by Genocide.

[ghost-angel]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

Being in a group that tends to play morally ambiguous characters ... it hasn't come up very much.

 

Though right now I'm purposely playing a "monster" of a sort, trying to see how far the moral envelope can be pushed... a shapeshifter no less.

 

I also play the sneaky sniper in another game, there's never been a trust problem with the character, well, sort of but it had nothing to do with the Invisiblity powers.

 

On the other hand, no character has ever said "Don't use those powers" once to another person unless they added "on me." If you got 'em, use 'em. We're probably going to need all the help we can get.

[SKJAM!]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

In one short-lived campaign, I played a mind-controller/illusionist who posed as a Captain America type. He used his abilities to make it look like he was using high PRE and martial arts that took down the villains, but it was all a lie.

 

His poorly-kept secret identity was a right-wing political commentator.

[Hypnotoad, the]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

I did manage to play a monster once...sorta.

 

The character transformed herself into a giant version of a dinosaur. Thankfully, the dinosaur type in question was a plant eater. Still...she was large enough to make the ground shake (thus setting off car alarms for several blocks). Aside from being the team's brick, she also acted as "mobile cover" for the rest of the team (she was next to impossible to score knockback on).

 

This last function nearly got her killed once, as a team of really nasty folks in power armor with even nastier killing attacks tried to kill the team. She acted as cover long enough for the rest of the team to recover and counter attack.

 

So, in concept, she might not have been a "real" hero, but I think her actions proved otherwise.

[OddHat]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

I usually run tricksters, mystics and mentalists.

 

In con games I usually run martial artists or bricks with a gimick.

[Acroyear]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

Nobody likes a mind controller

 

Bushwhackers will always be bushwhackers. They are, by their very concept, not trustworthy or, at the very least, performing acts in a distasteful way.

 

Yes, this does apply to PC and NPC interactions to some degree but we also let disads cover some of it.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

I have more respect for people who can use their powers in subtle, inventive, creative, and clever ways than I do for those who do nothing more than smash, crush, and blast things.

[BNakagawa]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

IMO, part of what makes a hero is a willingness to expose themselves to peril in the line of duty, for the sake of others, whatever.

 

If you're playing an invisible mentallist, you aren't really exposing yourself to much peril, in that nobody can see you and only mentallists can usually see your power effects, etc.

 

Ditto for anyone who has regen (from death) and can face suicidal situations without a worry in the world.

 

Ditto for anyone who summons other beings (assuming an unlimited supply) to do their fighting for them.

 

Ditto for anyone who projects their consciousness into replaceable vessels such as robots or people who posess people or objects who then do their fighting for them. (assuming that your consciousness suffers no ill effects if their current container gets smoked)

[Guest Soulcatcher]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

IMO, part of what makes a hero is a willingness to expose themselves to peril in the line of duty, for the sake of others, whatever.

 

If you're playing an invisible mentallist, you aren't really exposing yourself to much peril, in that nobody can see you and only mentallists can usually see your power effects, etc.

 

Ditto for anyone who has regen (from death) and can face suicidal situations without a worry in the world.

 

Ditto for anyone who summons other beings (assuming an unlimited supply) to do their fighting for them.

 

Ditto for anyone who projects their consciousness into replaceable vessels such as robots or people who posess people or objects who then do their fighting for them. (assuming that your consciousness suffers no ill effects if their current container gets smoked)

 

Well, when you start putting in all sorts of qualifications on who is and isn't a Hero, then you also need to factor in the Brick who may be extremely hard to damage seriously or kill vs a Mentalist who if he is hit is very much more vulnerable than a Brick. There are so many ways to judge characters. All characters are vulnerable, no matter their power set and SFX. If they fight for the cause of good and face risk, and they all do, then they are all heros.

[jackalope]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

Mind Controllers.... other psychic types, shapeshifters who pose as your best friend, mystics who summon unspeakable things to serve them, or unseen ambushers/snipers: They all have something in common, by some folks standards they cheat.

 

Well, they might not see it as cheating, these are the gifts they have, the powers they possess, but the thread about Alpha Maleness and what it might entail got me thinking. I noticed a strong disrespect among some for shall we say, those concepts who do not engage in a normal straight up fight?

 

I have total respect for such concepts, I just don't consider them "heroic" per se. Effective yes, but heroic? No. Intelligent? yes, but foolhardiness and heroism are supposed to exist on a fine line, and so the smarter you fight, the less heroic you are. See how that works?

 

This is a personal preference, so no worries on the player side. What I want to know is how often do you play this up in setting if any? Which powers/methods get the least trust in your game worlds? When you played characters with such, did the stigma affect them any really? Do even fellow (NPC or PC) heroes share the public's disdain?

 

I never tell my players how they are suppossed to feel about other character's powers and styles, but:

 

1 - Nobody trusts the team's mentalist, because he uses his powers on them without their permission.

2 - Someone has already asked Washi, the summoner, "Can you actually do anything?" Obviously the asker knew he could summon, but didn't equate that with Washi being able to do anything. (Washi can, he's a decent martal artist type).

3- The Troll - big scary monster - causes everyone concern because he 'could go nuts at any moment" - though he's never shown any real anger.

 

I think it's just an instinctual, gut reaction to feel uncomfortable with certain types of powers.

[Guest Soulcatcher]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

I have total respect for such concepts, I just don't consider them "heroic" per se. Effective yes, but heroic? No. Intelligent? yes, but foolhardiness and heroism are supposed to exist on a fine line, and so the smarter you fight, the less heroic you are. See how that works?

 

 

 

I never tell my players how they are suppossed to feel about other character's powers and styles, but:

 

1 - Nobody trusts the team's mentalist, because he uses his powers on them without their permission.

2 - Someone has already asked Washi, the summoner, "Can you actually do anything?" Obviously the asker knew he could summon, but didn't equate that with Washi being able to do anything. (Washi can, he's a decent martal artist type).

3- The Troll - big scary monster - causes everyone concern because he 'could go nuts at any moment" - though he's never shown any real anger.

 

I think it's just an instinctual, gut reaction to feel uncomfortable with certain types of powers.

 

But in a sense, that makes those types of heros even more heroic, in real terms, because they take the risks every other hero does and help defeat the villains like other heros, yet they are subject to derision, fear, suspicion and sometimes even loathing. Still being a hero under those circumstances is harder than being Captain America, so who is the greater hero?

 

What matters? Looking heroic because of bias and prejudiced perceptions or being heroic despite the handicap of bias and prejudiced perceptions.

[Guest rbezold]

Just a thought...

 

It seems to me that the measure of a hero is in the level of opposition. Remember the old "This looks like a job for SUPERMAN!"? Clark would only change if things got so out of hand that only Superman could hope to handle it. Is he heroic for dealing with natural disasters, crazed supervillains and the like? Certainly. But is the invisible mentalist less heroic? It depends. What if the problem is an invisible 'dream monster' that eats minds? What if the invisible mentalist is the only one who can stop it, and at some risk to himself at that. He's going to look plenty heroic to the person whose mind is being saved.

 

The problem, I think, is with players who try to create what I call 'all or nothing' characters. These type of characters tend to come up with attacks and defenses (mind control and desolid tend to be the most common culprits) that make the battle completely one sided. Either they work and the villain is down in a phase, or they don't and the hero is lunch.

 

And it's not even really the player's fault. It's the responsibility of the GM to provide the players with challenges and oppurtunities to be heroic.

 

"So Mr. Invisible, can your 20d6 ego attack stop the passed out drunk driver who's three seconds away from hitting the 4yr old? Better think fast..."

[jackalope]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

But in a sense' date=' that makes those types of heros even more heroic, in real terms, because they take the risks every other hero does and help defeat the villains like other heros, yet they are subject to derision, fear, suspicion and sometimes even loathing. Still being a hero under those circumstances is harder than being Captain America, so who is the greater hero?[/quote']

 

Um. No. Because they don't take the same risks, hence the derision. Hiding in the shadows and mind-controlling a goon into beating up his comrades is not anywhere near as risky as jumping into the fray with them. Building a robot and sending it to fight crime on the other side of the city is nowhere near as risky as sending yourself to fight crime.

 

The only thing these characters are risking is looking like a wuss who can hang with a real fight. That's not heroic. It may be smart, and it may win, but risking and inflciting physical violence is key to heroism.

 

What matters? Looking heroic because of bias and prejudiced perceptions or being heroic despite the handicap of bias and prejudiced perceptions.

 

Heroism involves personal risk, not risk to reputation.

 

It's like the difference between sending a check to a good charity, and volunteering time to a charity. Both are good and noble, one is far more noble. The one involving sacrafice. Of time.

 

Well, heroism is the same way. The more you risk, the more you put up for possible sacrafice, the more heroic you are. That's why Iron Fist is more heroic for taking on a big death dealing robot than Superman, who in turn is more heroic for taking on that robot than a cyberpath that can take over it's mind and make it dance a little jig from ten blocks away.

[jackalope]

Re: Just a thought...

 

"So Mr. Invisible' date=' can your 20d6 ego attack stop the passed out drunk driver who's three seconds away from hitting the 4yr old? Better think fast..."[/quote']

 

You make a great point.

 

Any character can be heroic with any power set, but the characters we are discussing as less heroic are only less heroic when heroism is defined as "battling supervillains". There's nothing heroic about using your mega awesome one-shot/one-kill ability to insta-whammy the villain with no risk to yourself. That's not heroic, that's BORING.

 

If you rush into a burning building and rescue a child, it doesn't matter if you're Captain Fisticuffs or the Amazing Mind Whammy, you're a hero. End of story.

 

Unless your power is the you are flame and crush resistant/proof. In which case, rushing into a burning building and saving a child isn't heroic - it's the least you can do!

[Hermit]

Just a reminder

 

I'm more asking how such characters are seen in the setting by the NPCs (and sometimes fellow PCs) than I am asking about how they're views by the GM and players.

[BNakagawa]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

Part of the issue is risk.

 

Mr Invisible doesn't have to face his share of risk because he's not being attacked with anywhere near the frequency of his visible comrades. (unless every villain in the world has the ability to target him) Bunker-Brain doesn't have to face his share of risk because his powers are indirect and he never actually shows up at battles. Summoners can do their thing out of sight of the enemies and have the summoned critter face all of the risk. Posessers (especially the kind that don't leave their bodies behind) let someone else's body face all the risk. If it get's broken, there's always another one to use. Immortals and beings that can regenerate from death don't face risk in the same sense that anyone else does. You have to wave your hands a whole lot just to put them in any sort of true peril, which strongly implies to me that they will face much less of it than their mortal comrades.

 

Part of the issue is accountability.

 

Mr Invisible never has to account for failures because the public never knows he's there. If the kid gets run over, nobody will blame Mr. Invisible for standing by and ego attacking Grond while it happened. The public will blame somebody else. Same thing with Bunker-Brain. Same thing with summoner guy. Same thing with possesser. Meanwhile, if the brick chucks a car and misses his target and wipes out a building full of normals, who get's the blame? If an EB goes wide and blows up a gas station, who gets blamed?

 

Characters who stand there and deliver their own attacks and take the return fire are more deserving of the label "hero" than people who rely on indirection.

 

Compare the tactics of a standing army and terrorists. A standing army wears identifiable uniforms and terrorists seek to disguise themselves as civilians. I know that people who support the political agendas of terrorists will describe them as heroes, but really...

[jackalope]

Re: Just a reminder

 

I'm more asking how such characters are seen in the setting by the NPCs (and sometimes fellow PCs) than I am asking about how they're views by the GM and players.

 

Well, like I said, they're kind of looked down on in my campaign. There's pretty good reason to not trust the mentalist/mage though - he's real, real shady. He doesn't do anything to inspire trust. And the summoner...well, he does spend the fights hanging abck away from danger and letting his creations take the damage, so yeah, he comes off looking a bit wussy.

 

But I don't do anything to encourage that.

[Hermit]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

Okay, that's cool. I have a campaign I hope to start up full time in Vibora bay. Not only is the premise a half way house where former supervillains do good deeds as a super hero team to buy their time off (It's not suicide squad level deadly... normally) but one of the characters is a mind controller. IF the public finds out more about her, and the project... well, I've already warned the player that the average NPC is going to be really spooked and distrustful to say the least.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Just a reminder

 

I'm more asking how such characters are seen in the setting by the NPCs (and sometimes fellow PCs) than I am asking about how they're views by the GM and players.

 

I generally don't play into the whole 'Superhero Paranoia' angle that comic companies like to do. When they first start up, there'll be some fears ... not necessarily because they're freakish or superpowered or have mental abilities, but just because it's unproven that they'll be able to use their abilities responsibly.

 

If they don't behave properly, well, they get shunned.

[jackalope]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

Okay' date=' that's cool. I have a campaign I hope to start up full time in Vibora bay. Not only is the premise a half way house where former supervillains do good deeds as a super hero team to buy their time off (It's not suicide squad level deadly... normally) but one of the characters is a mind controller. IF the public finds out more about her, and the project... well, I've already warned the player that the average NPC is going to be really spooked and distrustful to say the least.[/quote']

 

Yes, to say the very, absolute least.

 

If I was told that a mind-controlling supervillain was being released into a miminum security halfway house, my very, very first thought would be "What, those idiots on the sentancing board don't wear psionic shields?"

 

On a more generic level, the general populace of Jet City is just glad to have heroes, even heroes that aren't exactly trust and admiration inspiring. The supervillains have been running roughshod over the city in the last few years.

[OddHat]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

Part of the issue is risk.

 

Agreed, Bricks are wimpy girly men because they're bullet proof while most of the Mystics and Mentalists are not.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: "You're not a REAL Hero!"

 

The thing is ... yes, you expect the Thing to go toe-to-toe with an opponent, and you expect the Human Torch to blast them face-to-face. Their powers and abilities make that feasible.

 

If your powers do not include invulnerability or energy blasts, then if you're fighting flatly toe-to-toe, you're probably not being a hero, you're probably being stupid. You don't expect Professor X to go slugging people in the face. If the situation arises where you must do something that doesn't quite fit your powers, then yes, you do it. But if you do it when it's not important and it gets you killed, then all you've succeeded in doing is making sure you won't be saving anybody else again.

 

For example ... suppose my character is Stardust, a telepath I've made up (but never actually got to play). She has no Telekinesis, so no Forcefield. Her defenses positively suck; however, she has Invisibility ('clouding the mind' stuff). She isn't less heroic simply because she's having to hide; she simply isn't being STUPID.

[Guest Soulcatcher]

Re: Just a reminder

 

I'm more asking how such characters are seen in the setting by the NPCs (and sometimes fellow PCs) than I am asking about how they're views by the GM and players.

 

Mystics, mentalists, monsters and summoners would tend to be looked at negatively by NPCs. Often it would be related to the manipulation of unseen forces: magic, mental powers, creatures from elsewhere (unseen worlds) plus monsters which generates its own fears of things different. The unknown has a tendancy to be feared by people, often more than the known. These are basic human reactions that are made worse by the manifest threat implied by superpowers.

 

I actually enjoy playing those kinds of characters because of the extra roleplaying challenges and possibilities. Too often other PCs do not take advantage of those roleplaying possibilities.