Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced?

[Vondy]

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced?

 

An *extremely* advanced move by. With Martial Block' date=' you get 4 CV for 4 points. With Passing Strike, you get 5 CV for 5 points, plus the extra half of your strength, plus you don't take any reciprocal damage.[/quote']

And until its a problem in game its not a problem. I haven't had an issue with it to date.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced?

 

I understand what you're saying but all martial arts maneuvers are all the same basic process. Let's take another example. Offensive Strike costs 5 points is -2 OCV' date=' +1 DCV, and +4d6. Haymaker is -0 OCV, -5 DCV, +4d6, and +1 segment. If you choose to buy Offensive Strike you gain 4 CV and save a segment of time. That's not that much different than gaining 5 CV and 1d6+ extra damage with the Passing Strike. Passing Strike is no-more screwed up than most other martial arts maneuvers, in my opinion.[/quote']

 

You're right, Passing strike is no more screwed up than most other martial arts maneuvers.

 

They're all pretty unbalanced.

 

It only gets worse if you allow MPAs.

[JmOz]

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced?

 

I personaly like the FMove abilities, it helps ALOT when making speedsters (always were hard for me before FMove's). I have not seen any truly broken things from them... (but them I can destroy the earth on 5 points)

[casualplayer]

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced?

 

Same old, same old in HERO. Anything involving figured CHAR can be manipulated to advantage. Take a rules system that draws the math adept like flies to ...well, there is no flattering way to finish that analogy, but the Brian Van Hooses run amok if the the B A Feltons don't rein them in.

 

This isn't a criticism, just an observation. I can't play other systems without mentally converting them to HERO, 'cuz I can do anything with HERO and I always run into a wall of limitation and frustration with other RPGs. HERO is the UNIX of gaming.

 

However the GM has to be the most rules-crunchy of the group or it has to be a very contientious group of players. Anything else and havoc is unleashed. This is why I do all the character design work in my games. This is also why I can bring a 250 pt hero into your game and bust it wide open. It's not a design flaw; it's a feature!

 

Sadly, completely balanced RPGs don't sell. The brunt of gamers are people who inherently, instinctually seek out the key to God Mode. If that loophole is not there (or worse, the loophole is too obvious) then the game sits moldering on the shelf. What can you do?

[John T]

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced?

 

Doesn't matter. You get all the velocity right at the beginning with Superleap.

True, but IIRC all the maneuvers with an Fmove component require a full move to use, which has a minimum distance equal to a half move +1".

 

The 40" leaping brick doesn't have enough space to execute the move, at least not to it's full potential.

 

John T

[John T]

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced?

 

Actually, having gone back and re-read the rules for Fmove-component, I'd encourage everyone else on the thread to do the same (UMA, p93), as well as the exact maneuver modifiers (UMA, p9), since there seems to have been some confusion as to what they actually are.

 

FWIW, I still don't have issue with any of the Fmove maneuvers.

 

John T

[Gary]

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced?

 

True, but IIRC all the maneuvers with an Fmove component require a full move to use, which has a minimum distance equal to a half move +1".

 

The 40" leaping brick doesn't have enough space to execute the move, at least not to it's full potential.

 

John T

 

 

The only thing you need is enough velocity. The Fmove description states that the attack can be performed at any point during the move, although it does caution the GM to be wary of allowing Fmoves where the attack isn't at the end of the move.

 

And as per the FAQ (as bizarre as it may seem), the Superleap takes 8 hexes to accelerate to the full 40" velocity. So a 10" room is plenty to allow full velocity.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced?

 

And as per the FAQ (as bizarre as it may seem)' date=' the Superleap takes 8 hexes to accelerate to the full 40" velocity. So a 10" room is plenty to allow full velocity.[/quote']

 

Doesn't it also take another 8 hexes to slow down, so the character will smash into a wall as a result of his own maneuver? [Whether leap or flight; someone with no turn mode could at least decelerate in circles.]

[DoctorItron]

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced?

 

I personaly like the FMove abilities' date=' it helps ALOT when making speedsters (always were hard for me before FMove's). I have not seen any truly broken things from them... (but them I can destroy the earth on 5 points)[/quote']

 

I agree that classic speedsters with only 10-20 STR can use Passing Strike without issues.

 

Have you seen the FMove maneuvers used by fast semi-bricks - characters with 40+ STR or so, lots of movement, but perhaps a low SPD? Such characters are "balanced" because they swap a speedster's high SPD for extra STR, but can become too powerful with Passing Strike.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced?

 

Have you seen the FMove maneuvers used by fast semi-bricks - characters with 40+ STR or so' date=' lots of movement, but perhaps a low SPD? Such characters are "balanced" because they swap a speedster's high SPD for extra STR, but can become too powerful with Passing Strike.[/quote']As with all Powers and Skills, characters must be individually evaluated to see if any particular ability is unbalancing. Passing Strike can be unbalancing, but so can too much SPD, DEX, PD, too large an Energy Blast, a big NND, or just about anything else if overdone. If you outlaw everything that can even potentially be unbalancing, we'd be playing NORMAL instead of HERO.

 

One of our team's martial artists used Passing Strike for the first time this weekend (It's also the first time it's been used by a PC in our campaign.). Since he has only a 25 STR and 10" of Running, it was not overwhelming. He basically used it to take down an alien mook in passing on the way to a more heavily armed alien mook. Since it didn't even KO the mook (although it did STUN said mook) I would say Passing Strike in at least this instance probably didn't cause the Unbalanced Ability Demons to take over the multiverse.

 

Whew! That was a close call!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced?

 

As with all Powers and Skills' date=' characters must be individually evaluated to see if any particular ability is unbalancing. Passing Strike can be unbalancing, but so can too much SPD, DEX, PD, too large an Energy Blast, a big NND, or just about anything else if overdone. [/quote']

 

I think that's the key to remember. With 350 points, a character can easily buy 100 STR (90 points), 35 DEX (75 points), 40 CON (60 points), 40 PD (20 points), 40 ED (32 points), and make his PD and ED resistant (40 points). That leaves 33 points to have, say, a 26 EGO and 12 Comeliness. Balanced?

 

And he hasn't even used any limitations yet!

 

The big issue of Passing Strike is that, for sdome characters, it can result in an exceptional number of damage dice. So prohibit the purchase where the resulting damage would be excessive.

[Vondy]

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced?

 

 

The big issue of Passing Strike is that, for sdome characters, it can result in an exceptional number of damage dice. So prohibit the purchase where the resulting damage would be excessive.

 

 

For some characters the gamemaster should say no, for others the gamemaster should allow it. That's how Hero works. Outlawing something because it might be abused as opposed to saying no to abusive designs is contraindicated.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced?

 

If you outlaw everything that can even potentially be unbalancing' date=' we'd be playing NORMAL instead of HERO.[/quote']

 

No, I think everything unbalanced must be prohibitted entirely! As a consequence, my new House Rules will read as follows:

 

"Points may be spent only on Sciences, Knowledge Skills and Professional Skills. Skill Enhancers are far too unbalanced, and are thus not permitted. No one is perfect, so skill rolls cannot exceed 11-, except for a specific skill which is the character's specialty, which may have a roll as great as 13- if the GM is satisfied the nature of the specialty skill will not unbalance the game."

 

Best get to work revising Eurostar to fit these new parameters.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced?

 

Not taking a side on this, but check out the points:

 

Example Given Earlier:

 

"Martial Artist"

50 STR = 40 points

30" Flight = 60 points

Passing Strike = 5 points

 

16d6, +1 OVC, +0 DCV, 30" range = 105 points

 

Compare that to this Brick:

80 STR = 70 points

+44" Leaping = 44 points

+1 OCV with Punch = 2 points

Sell back 11 STUN = -11 points

 

16d6, +1 OCV, +0 DCV, 30" range = 105 points

 

The first guy gets better flexibility with his flight, the second gets more stuff with his strength.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced?

 

Not taking a side on this, but check out the points:

 

Example Given Earlier:

 

"Martial Artist"

50 STR = 40 points

30" Flight = 60 points

Passing Strike = 5 points

 

16d6, +1 OVC, +0 DCV, 30" range = 105 points

 

Compare that to this Brick:

80 STR = 70 points

+44" Leaping = 44 points

+1 OCV with Punch = 2 points

Sell back 11 STUN = -11 points

 

16d6, +1 OCV, +0 DCV, 30" range = 105 points

 

The first guy gets better flexibility with his flight, the second gets more stuff with his strength.

 

And never fight anywhere with a ceiling lower than 60 meters high...

[Gary]

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced?

 

Not taking a side on this, but check out the points:

 

Example Given Earlier:

 

"Martial Artist"

50 STR = 40 points

30" Flight = 60 points

Passing Strike = 5 points

 

16d6, +1 OVC, +0 DCV, 30" range = 105 points

 

Compare that to this Brick:

80 STR = 70 points

+44" Leaping = 44 points

+1 OCV with Punch = 2 points

Sell back 11 STUN = -11 points

 

16d6, +1 OCV, +0 DCV, 30" range = 105 points

 

The first guy gets better flexibility with his flight, the second gets more stuff with his strength.

 

 

Or you can have the brick buy only +39" leap (55" total), spend the extra 5 pts on Passing Strike, and do 27d6 damage...

[DoctorItron]

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced?

 

Or you can have the brick buy only +39" leap (55" total)' date=' spend the extra 5 pts on Passing Strike, and do 27d6 damage...[/quote']

 

Yep, this is yet another example of why Passing Strike is such a problem. It's a fixed cost power that behaves like an advantage on STR.

 

I don't understand why people are digging in and saying that Passing Strike is fine, but, just like all powers, it needs to be reviewed as part of a whole character. I understand that any power *can* be abused. Passing Strike, though, is abusive on most characters that exceed 20 STR ... in other words, way too many superheroes.

 

Imagine if Armor Piercing was changed from an advantage into a 5 point maneuver. "Oh, it's not broken, just don't use it with any character concept that has more than a 4d6 energy blast" (note: Find Weakness can have similar issues, but that's a thread for another time)

 

After speaking with my players this weekend, and thinking about it some more, I've pretty much decided to change Passing Strike damage to (STR/2)+(v/5)+2d6. The same as Move By + 2d6. I'm gonna email my players and see if I get any objections.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced?

 

Yep, this is yet another example of why Passing Strike is such a problem. It's a fixed cost power that behaves like an advantage on STR.

 

I don't understand why people are digging in and saying that Passing Strike is fine, but, just like all powers, it needs to be reviewed as part of a whole character. I understand that any power *can* be abused. Passing Strike, though, is abusive on most characters that exceed 20 STR ... in other words, way too many superheroes.

 

Imagine if Armor Piercing was changed from an advantage into a 5 point maneuver. "Oh, it's not broken, just don't use it with any character concept that has more than a 4d6 energy blast" (note: Find Weakness can have similar issues, but that's a thread for another time)

Passing Strike, like all the new maneuvers presented in UMA, is strictly optional so far as Champions is concerned. The potential for abuse is certainly real, but it's up to the GM to say yea or nay. I don't like blanket prohibitions because they can prevent perfectly good concepts. I don't see this as being inherently any worse than a speedster having a multipower slot for extra defenses "Only vs. Move Thru/By Damage." How is this fundamentally different from a Martial Throw? If a speedster or other fast mover travels past an MA who has M. Throw, a successful throw will almost certainly KO most fast movers.

 

We'd almost certainly allow our 25 STR MA Eagle Eye to take it (I said earlier in this thread that he'd used a Passing Strike, but upon reexamining his character sheet I discovered it was actually a Passing Throw.). Anything is potentially abusive. He'd be able to do 11d6 with Passing Strike at full running speed, which is still well within our game's informal damage "cap" of SPD + DC is less than or equal to 20. With his 6 SPD he could make a 14d6 attack, but his largest attack is currently 13d6.

 

While I could certainly justify it for my own fast MA Zl'f, with her 15 STR, 3 DCs and 30" of Running it would exceed my self-imposed maximum damage limit for her of 11d6. Plus, it would make her too much like a speedster in my eyes, and that's a play style I'm trying to get away from.

[DoctorItron]

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced?

 

One of my posts that proposed STR/2)+(velocity/5)+2d6 damage may have been overlooked. That's a Move By + 2d6.

 

IMO, this solves most of the issues when Passing Strike is used in a superhero game. 10 STR characters would see a minimal 1d6 improvement in total damage, 20 STR characters would break even, and stronger characters wouldn't do the excessive damage that the official version of Passing Strike allows.

 

Comments?

[JMHammer]

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced?

 

DoctorIron,

 

While I can think of a lot of ways to get highly unbalancing amounts of damage from synergized effects, Passing Strike and these other martial maneuvers are not among them.

 

When I play in your game I'll be happy to play with whatever rules you choose to use. However, I think far too much is being made of this. If a player wants to get a lot of damage with full moves, he does not need to use a Passing Strike, Charge, Flying Tackle, or any of the other martial maneuvers.

 

Let's use the character I proposed for your game as an example. I've attached a couple of .hdc files to this message. AviannePSt.hdc represents the character as originally proposed and as I plan to play him regardless of how you choose to adjudicate Passing Strike, Charge, etc. in your game (unless you just outlaw the maneuvers entirely, of course). AvianneMTh.hdc represents the character as I could build him to get better than the same effect for the same points (one less point, actually). I'll also attach these characters to the end of this message so that readers without Hero Designer 2 can follow along. (Apologies to those who don't need all the detail but need to scroll past all that to get to the next message.)

 

In the first case, AviannePSt using a Passing Strike has +1 OCV and at full flying velocity of 22"/phase will do 13d6.

 

In the second case, AvianneMTh using a Move Through (and skill levels set to offset the Move Through penalties so that the total OCV/DCV will be as close as possible to the first case with Passing Strike) will have -1 OCV and at full flying velocity of 22"/phase will do 16d6. Alternatively, he can use a velocity of 10"/phase which will produce +1 OCV and do 12d6. Or, he can really game the maneuver: Use a velocity of 12"/phase which will produce +1 OCV and do 13d6. Hmm...

 

[And don't get me started with comparisons to Move By, since with its fixed OCV/DCV penalties it would be even easier to game this maneuver to produce lots of damage.]

 

Note that AvianneMTh is hardly optimized, partly to make this as fair a comparison as possible and partly because I want to post this and go to bed. I could have easily sleazed the skill levels so that Avianne.MTh would have had better OCV/DCV than AviannePSt, but purchased 3-point levels instead. The reflected damage from the 16d6 isn't going to be an excesively troubling issue with even this character's moderate defenses and I could easily beef up straight PD with the points saved from eliminating the martial maneuvers. (Not to mention that I'm sure you can imagine the usual abusive "PD only for use with reflected Move Through/Move By damage." Or Hand Attack: Only to add damage to "passing" maneuvers.)

 

Frankly, AvianneMTh is a more powerful combat character and, with his higher Strength, can do a larger number of more interesting things as well as have an easier time breaking out of Entangles, etc. And while AviannePSt has some more options in combat, all those combat skill levels at AvianneMTh's disposal provide him with a tremendous amount of flexibility which is not obvious in the extremely simple contrasting example provided above.

 

Best wishes,

John H

 

 

Avianne

 

Player:

 

Val**	Char***	Cost
35**	STR	25
26**	DEX	48
28**	CON	36
18**	BODY	16
13**	INT	3
11**	EGO	2
20**	PRE	10
22**	COM	6
	*
20**	PD	8
20**	ED	9
5**	SPD	14
13**	REC	0
56**	END	0
50**	STUN	0

*6"**RUN02"/5"**SWIM07"**LEAP0Characteristics Cost: 177

 

Cost**	Power	END
4**	Wings and Feet: Extra Limbs (2) (5 Active Points); Prehensile Toes, but Limited Manipulation for Wings (-1/4)*	0
**	*
45**	Winged Movement: Multipower, 67-point reserve, (67 Active Points); all slots Restrainable (-1/2)*
4u**	1) Winged Flight: Flight 22", combat acceleration/deceleration (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (66 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2)*	2
4u**	2) Soaring: Gliding 54", combat acceleration/deceleration (+1/4) (67 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2)*	0
1u**	3) Water Wings: Swimming +3" (2"/5" total) (3 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2)*	1
3u**	4) Wind Buffet: Energy Blast (PD) 6d6, Explosion (Cone; -1 DC/2"; +1/2), Double Knockback (+3/4) (67 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), Reduced Penetration (-1/4)*	7
**	*
15**	Tough Skin: Armor (5 PD/5 ED)*	0
15**	Structural Integrity: Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 25%*	0
15**	Structural Integrity: Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 25%*	0
**	*
6**	Strong Fingers and Toes: Clinging (normal STR) (10 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), Not on completely smooth surfaces with nothing to grasp or hold (-1/4)*	0
**	*
3**	Sensitive Ears: Ultrasonic Perception (Hearing Group)*	0
9**	Sensory Acuity: +3 PER with all Sense Groups*	0
**	*

Powers Cost: 124

 

Cost**	Martial Arts Maneuver
**	Hunting Instinct*
8**	1) +2 HTH Damage Class(es)*
5**	2) Defensive Strike: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +3 DCV, 9d6 Strike*
4**	3) Charge: 1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, -2 DCV, 11d6 +v/5 Strike, FMove*
5**	4) Passing Strike: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +0 DCV, 9d6 +v/5; FMove*
5**	5) Flying Grab: 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, -1 DCV, Grab Two Limbs, 55 STR for holding on; FMove*

Martial Arts Cost: 27

 

Cost**	Skill
3**	Acrobatics 14-*
3**	Animal Handler (Birds, Raptors) 13-*
3**	Breakfall 14-*
3**	+1 with HTH Combat (5 Active Points); Only when attacking ground targets from the air (-1/2)*
3**	+1 with DCV (5 Active Points); Only in the air (-1/2)*
1**	KS: Birds 8-*
3**	+1 with Winged Movement*
3**	Tracking 12-*
**	*
**	20 Points of Bonus Skills*
3**	1) Bureaucratics 13-*
3**	2) Conversation 13-*
3**	3) Criminology 12-*
2**	4) KS: The Helix Corporation 11-*
1**	5) KS: Police Procedures 8-*
2**	6) PS: Corporate Security 11-*
3**	7) Security Systems 12-*
3**	8) Systems Operation 12-*

Skills Cost: 42

 

 

 

 

Total Character Cost: 370

 

Val**	Disadvantages
10**	Can be affected by powers which "only affect birds"*
25**	Dependent NPC: Wife, Children, Parents 8- (Normal; Group DNPC: x8 DNPCs)*
10**	Distinctive Features: Man with spectacular wings (Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)*
10**	Hunted: The Helix Foundation 11- (As Pow, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Watching)*
5**	Hunted: The Religious Right 8- (Less Pow, NCI, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Watching)*
5**	Hunted: The NRA 8- (Less Pow, NCI, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Watching)*
20**	Hunted: The Zookeeper 11- (As Pow, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Capture)*
15**	Hunted: Mystery Hunted (GM to define) 8- (As Pow, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Harshly Punish)*
5**	Physical Limitation: Large wings take up a lot of space, sometimes get in the way (Infrequently, Slightly Impairing)*
15**	Psychological Limitation: Code vs Killing (Common, Strong)*
10**	Psychological Limitation: Dislikes Guns (Common, Moderate)*
5**	Reputation: Angel with healing powers, 8-*
10**	Social Limitation: Public Identity (Frequently, Minor)*
5**	Vulnerability: 1 1/2 x STUN Sonics (Uncommon)*

Disadvantage Points: 150

 

Base Points: 200

Experience Required: 20

Total Experience Available: 20

Experience Unspent: 0

 

 

Avianne

 

Player:

 

Val**	Char***	Cost
45**	STR	35
26**	DEX	48
28**	CON	36
18**	BODY	16
13**	INT	3
11**	EGO	2
20**	PRE	10
22**	COM	6
	*
20**	PD	6
20**	ED	9
5**	SPD	14
15**	REC	0
56**	END	0
55**	STUN	0

*6"**RUN02"/5"**SWIM09"**LEAP0Characteristics Cost: 185

 

Cost**	Power	END
4**	Wings and Feet: Extra Limbs (2) (5 Active Points); Prehensile Toes, but Limited Manipulation for Wings (-1/4)*	0
**	*
45**	Winged Movement: Multipower, 67-point reserve, (67 Active Points); all slots Restrainable (-1/2)*
4u**	1) Winged Flight: Flight 22", combat acceleration/deceleration (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) (66 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2)*	2
4u**	2) Soaring: Gliding 54", combat acceleration/deceleration (+1/4) (67 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2)*	0
1u**	3) Water Wings: Swimming +3" (2"/5" total) (3 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2)*	1
3u**	4) Wind Buffet: Energy Blast (PD) 6d6, Explosion (Cone; -1 DC/2"; +1/2), Double Knockback (+3/4) (67 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), Reduced Penetration (-1/4)*	7
**	*
15**	Tough Skin: Armor (5 PD/5 ED)*	0
15**	Structural Integrity: Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 25%*	0
15**	Structural Integrity: Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 25%*	0
**	*
6**	Strong Fingers and Toes: Clinging (normal STR) (10 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), Not on completely smooth surfaces with nothing to grasp or hold (-1/4)*	0
**	*
3**	Sensitive Ears: Ultrasonic Perception (Hearing Group)*	0
9**	Sensory Acuity: +3 PER with all Sense Groups*	0
**	*

Powers Cost: 124

 

 

Cost**	Skill
3**	Acrobatics 14-*
3**	Animal Handler (Birds, Raptors) 13-*
3**	Breakfall 14-*
3**	+1 with HTH Combat (5 Active Points); Only when attacking ground targets from the air (-1/2)*
3**	+1 with DCV (5 Active Points); Only in the air (-1/2)*
1**	KS: Birds 8-*
3**	+1 with Winged Movement*
3**	Tracking 12-*
**	*
**	20 Points of Bonus Skills*
3**	1) Bureaucratics 13-*
3**	2) Conversation 13-*
3**	3) Criminology 12-*
2**	4) KS: The Helix Corporation 11-*
1**	5) KS: Police Procedures 8-*
2**	6) PS: Corporate Security 11-*
3**	7) Security Systems 12-*
3**	8) Systems Operation 12-*
**	*
**	The Big Move Bonus*
18**	1) +6 with Move Through, Move By, and Grab By*
1**	2) Some 1-Point Skill to get total points back up to 370 8-*

Skills Cost: 61

 

 

 

 

Total Character Cost: 370

 

Val**	Disadvantages
10**	Can be affected by powers which "only affect birds"*
25**	Dependent NPC: Wife, Children, Parents 8- (Normal; Group DNPC: x8 DNPCs)*
10**	Distinctive Features: Man with spectacular wings (Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable By Commonly-Used Senses)*
10**	Hunted: The Helix Foundation 11- (As Pow, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Watching)*
5**	Hunted: The Religious Right 8- (Less Pow, NCI, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Watching)*
5**	Hunted: The NRA 8- (Less Pow, NCI, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Watching)*
20**	Hunted: The Zookeeper 11- (As Pow, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Capture)*
15**	Hunted: Mystery Hunted (GM to define) 8- (As Pow, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find, Harshly Punish)*
5**	Physical Limitation: Large wings take up a lot of space, sometimes get in the way (Infrequently, Slightly Impairing)*
15**	Psychological Limitation: Code vs Killing (Common, Strong)*
10**	Psychological Limitation: Dislikes Guns (Common, Moderate)*
5**	Reputation: Angel with healing powers, 8-*
10**	Social Limitation: Public Identity (Frequently, Minor)*
5**	Vulnerability: 1 1/2 x STUN Sonics (Uncommon)*

Disadvantage Points: 150

 

Base Points: 200

Experience Required: 20

Total Experience Available: 20

Experience Unspent: 0

[JMHammer]

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced?

 

DoctorIron said:

Have you seen the FMove maneuvers used by fast semi-bricks - characters with 40+ STR or so, lots of movement, but perhaps a low SPD? Such characters are "balanced" because they swap a speedster's high SPD for extra STR, but can become too powerful with Passing Strike.

Yet another reason the optional velocity/falling damage system provided in 5th Edition (adopted from an article written by John Kim who, like me, is a physicist by training) is a generally superior replacement for the standard system.

 

John H

[JmOz]

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced?

 

I think the problem is two fold:

 

Characters being Optimised

 

No GM Limits

 

I would not allow a character with 40" of movement, a Str of 75 to take any FMove manuvers (Martial Arts would be a hard sell for me)

[Agent X]

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced?

 

I think the problem is two fold:

 

Characters being Optimised

 

No GM Limits

 

I would not allow a character with 40" of movement, a Str of 75 to take any FMove manuvers (Martial Arts would be a hard sell for me)

No Namor Knockoffs huh?

[JmOz]

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced?

 

I enforce a Damage Cap: How you reach the cap is your buisness, so IF you wanted a namor clone, and max damage is 15 DC then your character Could have Str 40; 35" of Movement, and FMove (8+7=15 DC). I would also consider allowing you to go over if it was seriously limited IMO (If the above also had 70" of swimming, in a game that will not have many fights in the water maybe?)

[Agent X]

Re: Passing Strike (martial maneuver) Unbalanced?

 

I enforce a Damage Cap: How you reach the cap is your buisness' date=' so IF you wanted a namor clone, and max damage is 15 DC then your character Could have Str 40; 35" of Movement, and FMove (8+7=15 DC). I would also consider allowing you to go over if it was seriously limited IMO (If the above also had 70" of swimming, in a game that will not have many fights in the water maybe?)[/quote']

S'cool. I'm not a big fan of damage caps myself. I like to have the players build their characters after discussing their role in the group and remind them that I intend to sometimes use published villains without many modifications. They submit their characters and then I make my modifications to the characters - mainly to fill in gaping skill/perk holes and to make sure their characters won't decimate everything in the books. I also use the optional velocity rules. One of the things I like about the optional velocity rules is it allows characters' movement to go up quite a bit without seriously screwing things up concerning move throughs, move bys, passing strikes, etc.