Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

[Hyper-Man]

It appears that some posters are getting hung up on relationship of the names of particular powers (like shapeshift) and the effects that they produce within the HERO system. One of the strengths of the system is that almost any character concept can be described with at least 2 equally valid but different set of powers and frameworks. It also occured to me that the tools used by Norm on The New Yankee Workshop and on site on This Old House have a lot in common with the HERO system and therefore might be usefull in illustrating this point.

 

Whenever Norm begins a project in his shop he starts with rough lumber and has to go through some pretty common steps:

 

• Shaping the basic building blocks (squaring the boards on the table saw, smoothing them on the planer, sanding them if necessary on the table sander, etc..)
  
• Making the cuts to fit the pieces together (rabbit cuts, dato cuts, tongue and groove cuts, etc...)
  
• Finishing work (decorative edge details like edge moldings and cutout features)
  

In almost every step along the way he has the choice of 2 or more different tools to choose from. Because he has nearly every home use power tool in existence he uses a different tool for almost everything including multiple versions of the same one in cases like routers and drills. However, when working on site with only the tools at hand on This Old House he makes due with a much more narrow set of tools and still gets the job done. The variety that exists in his workshop is primarily a timesaver.

 

The process he goes through in choosing which tools to use is very similar to that of a player designing a new HERO system character. Player decides he wants a character that can damage his opponents at range . He now has to decide which power (tool) would accomplish this most effectively (EB, RKA, TK, etc..). What way he organizes these powers (tools) goes a long way in deciding the efficency and adaptability of the character.

 

Norm once had a 2-part New Yankee show about turning a garage into a new workshop. He tackled the project with the bare minimum of tools to begin with since the idea of the episode was to show someone else how to do the same on their own without having to buy all the tools that Norm has. I found the episode enlightening since my dad used to have a shopsmith multi-tool which could be transformed into a variety of tools: table saw, drill press, drum sander, lathe, and planer. In one sense that one tool could be thought of as a 'gadget pool' of sorts. Norm's shop might be thought of as an Elemental Control based on what the manufacturer's want to indirectly advertise for the home user.

 

I am curious if this elaborate an analogy to character creation has occured to anyone else and also if it might somehow be useful somehow in resolving arguments over character design?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

I look at the HERO System from the perspective of a programmer. I see the base Powers as being roughly equivalent to base classes, and individual Power Constructs on actual characters to be instantiations of those classes, aka objects.

 

Adders and standard Modifiers are equivalent to setting various properties of the instantiated objects.

 

Custom Mods are equivalent to inheriting the base class and overriding or extending parts of it (or both).

 

Each Power then functions as an object, and the character itself is a larger object with several collections of smaller objects (Powers, Perks, Talents, Skills, Disads, etc).

 

 

Thats how I look at the available abilities in the HERO System -- as base classes that exist to save me the time of writing them myself.

 

---

Another way I think of the HERO System is as a meta language to describe a "character". Its a structured definition language, with the capacity for freeform definition in discrete circumstances. When trying to describe a character you use the definition language that most closely describes the behaviour or each element of the character.

 

The language is robust enough to allow the same element to be described potentially many different ways, though each way has different nuances ranging from the subtle to the situational. Just like with any language some can use it better or more precisely than others, but even someone that can barely use the language can get their basic meaning across -- the difference is in the precision and clarity.

 

Like a language, HERO System mechanics can suffer from bad grammar, contractions, popular usage vice correct usage, connotative vs denotative discrepancies, and so forth.

---

A third way I think of the HERO System is less abstract, being more mechanically oriented.

 

The HERO System is based on the idea of paying points to buy Effects. Unlike other systems where specific Effects are gained via leveling mechanics or even via point buys of pre-builts, the HERO System goes a step further and allows you to define Effects via the Powers mechanic.

 

This is what makes the HERO System extensible and powerful and is a good thing.

 

However, most gamers are trained by other systems to buy discrete pre-packaged abilities, and any internal definition of those abilities are hidden from the users.

 

They come to the HERO System and are just not intellectually prepared to truly understand the "Reason from Effect" mentality of the HERO System. It's a foreign concept to them that runs against everything they have learned from every other system they've ever played. Some people get it right of the bat, but less systemically oriented people take longer, or may never completely "grok" the concept.

 

When I look at the abilities in the HERO System, I see purchasable mechanics that have specific game Effects. Each represents a subsystem of the Rules that I can purchase the access to. The names they carry are just labels, and nothing more.

 

When I buy those abilities Im looking for the right one or combination of several to most closely model the actual end result I want to accomplish. Thats is reasoning from Effect. "If I want Effect X, what combination of abilities will acheive that most closely?"

[RDU Neil]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

I look at the HERO System from the perspective of a programmer. I see the base Powers as being roughly equivalent to base classes, and individual Power Constructs on actual characters to be instantiations of those classes, aka objects.

 

Adders and standard Modifiers are equivalent to setting various properties of the instantiated objects.

 

Custom Mods are equivalent to inheriting the base class and overriding or extending parts of it (or both).

 

Each Power then functions as an object, and the character itself is a larger object with several collections of smaller objects (Powers, Perks, Talents, Skills, Disads, etc).

 

 

Thats how I look at the available abilities in the HERO System -- as base classes that exist to save me the time of writing them myself.

 

---

Another way I think of the HERO System is as a meta language to describe a "character". Its a structured definition language, with the capacity for freeform definition in discrete circumstances. When trying to describe a character you use the definition language that most closely describes the behaviour or each element of the character.

 

The language is robust enough to allow the same element to be described potentially many different ways, though each way has different nuances ranging from the subtle to the situational. Just like with any language some can use it better or more precisely than others, but even someone that can barely use the language can get their basic meaning across -- the difference is in the precision and clarity.

 

Like a language, HERO System mechanics can suffer from bad grammar, contractions, popular usage vice correct usage, connotative vs denotative discrepancies, and so forth.

---

A third way I think of the HERO System is less abstract, being more mechanically oriented.

 

The HERO System is based on the idea of paying points to buy Effects. Unlike other systems where specific Effects are gained via leveling mechanics or even via point buys of pre-builts, the HERO System goes a step further and allows you to define Effects via the Powers mechanic.

 

This is what makes the HERO System extensible and powerful and is a good thing.

 

However, most gamers are trained by other systems to buy discrete pre-packaged abilities, and any internal definition of those abilities are hidden from the users.

 

They come to the HERO System and are just not intellectually prepared to truly understand the "Reason from Effect" mentality of the HERO System. It's a foreign concept to them that runs against everything they have learned from every other system they've ever played. Some people get it right of the bat, but less systemically oriented people take longer, or may never completely "grok" the concept.

 

When I look at the abilities in the HERO System, I see purchasable mechanics that have specific game Effects. Each represents a subsystem of the Rules that I can purchase the access to. The names they carry are just labels, and nothing more.

 

When I buy those abilities Im looking for the right one or combination of several to most closely model the actual end result I want to accomplish. Thats is reasoning from Effect. "If I want Effect X, what combination of abilities will acheive that most closely?"

 

While I completely agree with the second and third interpretations, I wonder how much of a negative effect such analysis of the game can have. I find this kind of intellectual activity fascinating, but I also know that most people don't come to an RPG to explore the nuances of language use or to grasp the concept of "reason from effect."

 

Is there a better, simpler way to describe what Hero does that isn't so pedantic? Something that doesn't require a basic knowledge of programming, or a class in linguistic theory.

 

How can we get new players who have been indoctrinated in more traditional RPG styles. Remember, there is a reason most RPGs utilize pre-packaged powers/abilties, etc. That reason is FLAVOR.

 

If I come to a superhero game, I'm not looking (at least initially) to build a character with the power to create a damaging attack that effects a measured radius based on power level that may allow for continuing damage over consecutive rounds unless effectively nullified.

 

No... what I want is a fuckin' FIREBALL, man!

 

Now, while those of us who have persevered, and have a solid inclination to study a game in a systemic way, can see the beauty and power behind a system like Hero to simulate a nearly infinite game effects, this is NOT obvious or clear at first glance... nor at second or third glances.

 

Where is the ease of entry to this system? Where is the interface, to use a programming term?

 

I want my Windows 2000 so I can point and click... not the Visual basic or HTML code or whatever.

 

How do we make Hero as glossy and inviting and "fun" right out of the box, like say Mutants and Masterminds? How can the game be marketed to those who don't care about the programming behind the scenes, but just want to use the end result of that programming?

 

Is it possible? If so, it would attract a lot more gamers, and those who just wanted a clean, simple "pick from the book" game could play alongside those who spend the time learning the diverse complexities of the programming language behind the scenes.

 

There needs to be a way to make Hero accessible to those non-engineer, lawyer, programmer mind sets. I don't think the tool concept above really works... but then I don't have much to offer myself.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

Well, it will be obvious to some mind sets. Its the thing that attracted me to the HERO System 14 years ago. I looked at the Power construction rules and had to buy the book, no doubt about it.

 

The real question to me is, is it valuable to dummy the product down so that it is "more like other games"?

 

Why not just play those other games instead if that's what a player wants?

 

The HERO System covers a specific niche of roleplayers and is fairly unique in doing it. I would say that it would be better to cater to the strength of the HERO System and make it more accessible and noticeable by those who will naturally gravitate towards it than to work against its strength by trying to accommodate the non-technical thinkers who are never really going to appreciate the Systems real potential.

 

Or to put it another way, if Market Share is a battlefield, and other games systems are the enemy, is it smarter to try to fight them by ignoring the HERO Systems extensibility and effects-driven mechanics to fight the enemies where they are strong, or to marshal every advantage from what the HERO System has that they lack?

 

Personally I think it would be better to concede the specific, prepackaged, non-flexible unbalanced field and press the attack on the granting consistent creative control front.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

Well, it will be obvious to some mind sets. Its the thing that attracted me to the HERO System 14 years ago. I looked at the Power construction rules and had to buy the book, no doubt about it.

 

The real question to me is, is it valuable to dummy the product down so that it is "more like other games"?

 

Why not just play those other games instead if that's what a player wants?

 

The HERO System covers a specific niche of roleplayers and is fairly unique in doing it. I would say that it would be better to cater to the strength of the HERO System and make it more accessible and noticeable by those who will naturally gravitate towards it than to work against its strength by trying to accommodate the non-technical thinkers who are never really going to appreciate the Systems real potential.

 

Or to put it another way, if Market Share is a battlefield, and other games systems are the enemy, is it smarter to try to fight them by ignoring the HERO Systems extensibility and effects-driven mechanics to fight the enemies where they are strong, or to marshal every advantage from what the HERO System has that they lack?

 

Personally I think it would be better to concede the specific, prepackaged, non-flexible unbalanced field and press the attack on the granting consistent creative control front.

 

Well, from my point of view, Hero can do both, and we are missing an opportunity to expand the market share, rather than just concede it. Maximize sales of the current market share, cool... but expanding the market share doesn't mean that Hero has to stop doing what it does well... but that it could do BOTH.

 

I find this with new players all the time. I start them out by saying, "Don't worry about the rules. Just tell me what your character does... what she is... what you want her to be." Based ont he description, I build a bare bones character... basic stats, a couple of powers without advantages (or at least with minimal advantages) etc. I leave a bunch of points unspent to flesh out the character as it grows.

 

The player then gets to jump right in... play their character, tell their story, and all this right beside Mr. Math and Captain Engineer.

 

No offense, but I'm personally sick of all the programming, legal and engineering language. Hero is so much more than the sum of it's parts... and it's the mechanics that create the "game of munchkins" concept. Reductionist thinking is only so useful. To focus on that is to focus on the tubes of Cyan Yellow and Crimson... rather than on the art made from those chemical mixtures.

 

Hero is an outstanding system for creating some fantastic role playing art. I'd like to see the product support the finished art, rather than all the time spent on cataloguing the art supplies.

 

Pre-packaged doesn't have to be limiting. It can just be ease of entry. Just because a door knob interface is as simple as "grab, turn, pull" doesn't mean that it stops you from taking a screw driver to the lock plate and pulling it apart to adjust, fix or replace. You just don't HAVE to do that if you don't want to.

 

Hero should provide us with more complete door and knob products, and less "slab of wood and tooled pieces of metal" kits.

 

Much of this can come through layout and packaging of the books. Less text... less rules explanation... less point cost and detail on the character sheet. Give full color pictures with a condensed sheet of stats and basic powers. Trim text and eliminate jargon as much as possible. Highlight basic powers in common terms. X HtH damage. X Range Damage. STR, CON, DEX, PD/ED, BODY, STUN, END - CV, Levels. That is really all you need... the rest just gets into the detail. Some will jump right to it, others will ignore it unless it somehow captures their imagination.

 

The beauty of good engineering or programming, is that the messy detail is invisible to the end user. It just works. The engineer can peer under the hood and be impressed, but the rest of us just get in and drive. A good game should be the same. Completely usable without in depth knowledge of how it works. It just does.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

While I completely agree with the second and third interpretations, I wonder how much of a negative effect such analysis of the game can have. I find this kind of intellectual activity fascinating, but I also know that most people don't come to an RPG to explore the nuances of language use or to grasp the concept of "reason from effect."

 

Is there a better, simpler way to describe what Hero does that isn't so pedantic? Something that doesn't require a basic knowledge of programming, or a class in linguistic theory.

 

How can we get new players who have been indoctrinated in more traditional RPG styles. Remember, there is a reason most RPGs utilize pre-packaged powers/abilties, etc. That reason is FLAVOR.

 

If I come to a superhero game, I'm not looking (at least initially) to build a character with the power to create a damaging attack that effects a measured radius based on power level that may allow for continuing damage over consecutive rounds unless effectively nullified.

 

No... what I want is a fuckin' FIREBALL, man!

 

Now, while those of us who have persevered, and have a solid inclination to study a game in a systemic way, can see the beauty and power behind a system like Hero to simulate a nearly infinite game effects, this is NOT obvious or clear at first glance... nor at second or third glances.

 

Where is the ease of entry to this system? Where is the interface, to use a programming term?

 

I want my Windows 2000 so I can point and click... not the Visual basic or HTML code or whatever.

 

How do we make Hero as glossy and inviting and "fun" right out of the box, like say Mutants and Masterminds? How can the game be marketed to those who don't care about the programming behind the scenes, but just want to use the end result of that programming?

 

Is it possible? If so, it would attract a lot more gamers, and those who just wanted a clean, simple "pick from the book" game could play alongside those who spend the time learning the diverse complexities of the programming language behind the scenes.

 

There needs to be a way to make Hero accessible to those non-engineer, lawyer, programmer mind sets. I don't think the tool concept above really works... but then I don't have much to offer myself.

 

Do you mean ways other than compiling volumes of prebuilt spells, superpowers, gadgets, vehicles, martial art styles, and "class", race and profession Package Deals?

 

To tell you the truth, I think these kinds of supplements go as far as HERO needs to in this direction, and perhaps as far as it can go. For the average gamer I don't think there's a great difference between picking out a Fireball spell from the D&D Players Handbook or from the Fantasy HERO Grimoire, except that in the latter case the mechanics of how the spell was built are visible should they wish to read them. Now, I understand that some people find those mechanics to be "flavor destroying" (although they can just ignore them and treat them as simplistically as D&D does), but IME that's also an "in" on getting them interested in the potential of HERO. Once they become curious about what the numbers really mean, they're ready to start learning about using them to create their own neat stuff.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

That kind of skinning is up to the GM, IMO. It provides the GM with the tools to run the kind of game he wants, and put whatever face upon it he cares to.

 

You are serving that purpose now. It sounds more like you are getting tired of doing the skinning than any intrinsic problem with the game itself.

 

Maybe you should take a break. If you find yourself wishing for the glam, play M&M for awhile. If you dont come back then thats the system for you. If you do come back then maybe youll be more in the mood to skin the rules some more for your purposes after the break.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

The beauty of good engineering or programming' date=' is that the messy detail is invisible to the end user. It just works. The engineer can peer under the hood and be impressed, but the rest of us just get in and drive. A good game should be the same. Completely usable without in depth knowledge of how it works. It just does.[/quote']

Thats certainly your OPINION of good engineering/programming.

 

In my opinion however the "beauty" of good engineering/programming is in the functionality.

 

Do I want to use Dabbler or Photoshop? Photoshop. Why? Because its functional, feature rich, expandible, and bare bones. Function over Form.

 

You obviously differ, but that doesnt make either opinion more right. Granted, I like a certain aesthetic styling; Im not one of those guys who removes the case from his electronics or thinks its ok to visibly run the plumbing thru the rafters like the do in some airports and older buildings, but I dont want some product that has been interfaced down to such a minimalist state in the interests of making it's function "invisible" that it's not good for anything outside of it's limited design.

[Doug Limmer]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

Hero should provide us with more complete door and knob products, and less "slab of wood and tooled pieces of metal" kits.

 

Much of this can come through layout and packaging of the books. Less text... less rules explanation... less point cost and detail on the character sheet. Give full color pictures with a condensed sheet of stats and basic powers. Trim text and eliminate jargon as much as possible. Highlight basic powers in common terms. X HtH damage. X Range Damage. STR, CON, DEX, PD/ED, BODY, STUN, END - CV, Levels. That is really all you need... the rest just gets into the detail. Some will jump right to it, others will ignore it unless it somehow captures their imagination.

I've long thought (and I'm sure the idea has been mentioned on the boards before by others) that HERO should have two character sheets: one for character creation, and one for actual use in play. The in-play sheet would have most of the character creation information suppressed.

 

It sounds like what you want, for beginners, is the list of powers replaced by a bunch of entries from The UNTIL Superpowers Database (or whatever is appropriate for your genre). Then then 'advanced' book would explain the entire construction system, and have all the powers in the 'basic' book worked out.

 

That's not necessarily a bad idea. But, you'd need a separate 'basic' book for each genre, or one really, really, really big book with all the examples in it. Personally, I think the current 'build' books (superpowers, spells, vehicles, gadgets, and to a lesser extent ki abilities and super-skills) can fulfill the same purpose, with only a little more difficulty.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

I don't really look the the Hero System as carpenter's tools or programming, but as Legos.

 

With Legos, you've got those standard rectangular blocks, square blocks, thin blocks of various lengths, round blocks, blocks with holes in them for axles, blocks with slants on the bottom or top, etc. And then you've got accessory parts, like those axles, wheels, little knobby bits and even some nifty custom stuff that is still adaptable for a number of uses (you know, those little ray-gun pieces that are also rocket launchers, engines, megaphones, stilts, PA-speakers and dozens of other stuff). Basically, there's a piece for everything, and every piece can be used for several things (sometimes completely unrelated things).

 

The Hero Sytem is not quite like programming, because it's not broken down quite that far. Every Power/Skill/Whatever has an obvious use and is plainly defined so that anyone can figure it out. Like Legos, each of these may also have some unusual uses.

 

As far as making such mechanics invisible, that's a lot like Legos too. Did you ever build an X-Wing out of Legos? I'm not talking about making one from parts that came out of a box with Star Wars logos on it; I'm talking about making one out of the normal pieces I've described above, like out of one of the larger deluxe sets. did it look like it did in the movies? Hell, no. Could you play with like was? Abosutely!

 

The mechanics are just there to define whatever it is you're looking at on the character sheet. When you play D&D and see your wizard knows the Fireball spell, you know what it can do because you've read the spell section in the PHB, and how it's cast because you've read the sections on the wizard class and spellcasting. When you play Hero and see your wizard knows Fireball: EB 6d6 Delayed Effect, Explosion, Gestures, Incantations, OIF (pinch of sulpher and bat guano), you know what it can do and how it's cast because you've read the Powers section of the Hero System rules along with the sections on Power Modifiers. Not much difference really; only Hero makes it easy to change it if you want it do work differently.

 

In any case, I've probaby gone on far to long. What were we talking about again?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

The Hero Sytem is not quite like programming, because it's not broken down quite that far. Every Power/Skill/Whatever has an obvious use and is plainly defined so that anyone can figure it out. Like Legos, each of these may also have some unusual uses.

And thats not like programming in an OO environment how?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

Great stuff from everyone.

 

Programing and Legos are both great analogies.

 

BTW, congrats on reaching 6000 posts Killer Shrike.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

I view Hero System game mechanics as akin to gravity. When an apple falls from the tree, we can all agree or disagree what happens to the apple between our respective campaigns. When we all follow the same basic Universal laws (game mechanics), it allows use all to pool and share each others ideas on world building and character development. A Vampire created for a Fantasy Hero could be ported over to a Star Hero as is. The Real difference between Hero and other game systems is that we can see the engine, transmission, etc. and all we have to do is the bodywork.

 

 

 

.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

Great stuff from everyone.

 

Programing and Legos are both great analogies.

 

BTW, congrats on reaching 6000 posts Killer Shrike.

Say, thanx! I hadnt noticed.

[paigeoliver]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

Hero games don't HAVE to be overly complex. Beginning players and gamemasters can simply not use power advantages or limitations until they are more comfortable with the system. You can still make GREAT superheroes just using the base unmodified powers.

 

Non-superhero games can be quickly and easily simplified by ignoring end, and remaking a new speed chart that only has 4 segments, since no one in a non-supers game should have a speed over 4 anyway.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

Hero games don't HAVE to be overly complex. Beginning players and gamemasters can simply not use power advantages or limitations until they are more comfortable with the system. You can still make GREAT superheroes just using the base unmodified powers.

 

Non-superhero games can be quickly and easily simplified by ignoring end,

Yeah, if one were inclined to do so, although I would argue with your implied assumption that HERO games ARE overly complex.

 

and remaking a new speed chart that only has 4 segments, since no one in a non-supers game should have a speed over 4 anyway.

Sez you. If they want to pay 20 pts per +1 SPD in NCM, then let em.

[paigeoliver]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

Sez you. If they want to pay 20 pts per +1 SPD in NCM' date=' then let em.[/quote']

 

I would approve a 5 speed in a heroic campaign about as fast as I would approve a 30 Str. Meaning I wouldn't approve it. "Normal" humans don't have 5 speed anymore than they have STR of 30.

 

A 5 (or god forbid 6) speed character in a spd 3-4 heroic campaign would be amazingly unbalanced, even if he did pay the extra points for going over maxima.

 

Hero is not (by default) overly complex, but it CAN be overly complex.

[Titan59]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

I think the great strength of Hero is the way you can get into the guts of the thing and tinker. If my players struggle with the system I will happily build characters from their concepts that are streamlined and basic- all powers on zero end for example. For most new players its the book-keeping that tends to be intimidating so I find it best to keep that to a minimum. Once players have a feel for the system they can do their own work and add the rules sub-systems they want to suit themselves. This modularity is a good thing.

 

As an aside, off the top of my head, I cannot think of any other system that could have survived a multi-year long layoff by the company that produced it and then come back the way Hero has. (OK- D&D sort of did it but then its D&D and it had all the marketing muscle of Wizards/Hasbro behind it) I think it was the fact that Hero demands involvement in the design process by players and GM's that allowed it. The fact that Hero gamers are used to doing homebrew stuff must surely have been a contributing factor to the systems surviving. Not to take anything away from DOJ- they have supported 5th Ed the way I always wanted to see it supported. Long may they run.

[lazarus]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

To me, the HERO powers and modifiers are like a description language. You describe what effects you're getting. Not very well explained...

 

Laz

[RDU Neil]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

That kind of skinning is up to the GM, IMO. It provides the GM with the tools to run the kind of game he wants, and put whatever face upon it he cares to.

 

You are serving that purpose now. It sounds more like you are getting tired of doing the skinning than any intrinsic problem with the game itself.

 

Maybe you should take a break. If you find yourself wishing for the glam, play M&M for awhile. If you dont come back then thats the system for you. If you do come back then maybe youll be more in the mood to skin the rules some more for your purposes after the break.

 

I think a good game should provide some of the "skinning" if I'm interpreting your term, correctly. And, again, maybe I'm not complaining about the system as much as how the game/product line is presented.

 

I've played M&M. System sucks... hard... but DAMN I love their books. Look at 'em! They make you go "ooohhh!" at the color and the dynamic emphasis on flavor and fun and character. Look at the Hero books. Often crappy art, poor layout, and most of that... IMO... is driven by a constant focus on mechanics and rules. We've got the big black book for the mechanics and rules. The supplements should be more than that... and to tell the truth, I can't stand 'em. Dense text, mind numbing detail, very little flavor... and these boards reflect that. A mechanics system is not the complete game. Hero just seems, to me, to be missing an emphasis on the other half of the game... the actual story and character and flavor that one uses the mechanics to create!

 

The engineering/programming/lawyer mindset keeps putting out tech manuals... and we aren't getting anything like, say, the old Strikeforce... that is an end product (highly customizable, still)... not just more rules.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

I would approve a 5 speed in a heroic campaign about as fast as I would approve a 30 Str. Meaning I wouldn't approve it. "Normal" humans don't have 5 speed anymore than they have STR of 30.

 

A 5 (or god forbid 6) speed character in a spd 3-4 heroic campaign would be amazingly unbalanced, even if he did pay the extra points for going over maxima.

 

I categorically disagree with this assertion.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

I think the great strength of Hero is the way you can get into the guts of the thing and tinker. If my players struggle with the system I will happily build characters from their concepts that are streamlined and basic- all powers on zero end for example. For most new players its the book-keeping that tends to be intimidating so I find it best to keep that to a minimum. Once players have a feel for the system they can do their own work and add the rules sub-systems they want to suit themselves. This modularity is a good thing.

Sounds like we're on the same sheet of music in this regard.

[SSJ Archon]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

Role-playing games have two components, the core and the skin. The core describes how things interact with one another, and the skin brings life and imagination to these things. The differenece between Hero and for example D&D is that Hero's Core is very tight and well oiled, open and ready for any challenging interactions, but doesn't come with much a skin at all. D&D has a very weak core, often with its current designers changing there minds often and have very little consistance. But it comes with a much more intricate skin, full of color and depth. Often in Hero, much of the skin is custom designed by the players and GM, while in D&D the mechanics are often rewritten by the DM and his\her players.

As a general note, the fact that D&D concentrates on a single genre makes this fact even more pronounced. (The skin is easier to define, but often this means that many things are not considered so that the core suffers.)

Personally, I started into D&D and then got into Hero. I still play D&D more, (though mostly because I'm more proficent with it and most of my local players and DM/GMs are resistant to anything not D20,) and think this is because a game with a good skin is easier to draw new players in with. But often times (as in my case,) once the player finds all the problems with the core, they move on to some system with a sturdier core, often with less skin (Though by this time the player is often skilled at making/enhancing his own.) If you want to make the game more well known, you make a strong skin, if you want to make it appeal to many hard core gamers who are willing to do more work, a more robust core is important.

I think sidekick and the genre books are a good move, not removing the core, but making the skin more appealing. (I wish that the major genre books were more able to be played alone from the core book, though the core book should be just that, about the core, like it currently is.)

Have to go to work, I was blambing anyway.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

I think a good game should provide some of the "skinning" if I'm interpreting your term' date=' correctly. And, again, maybe I'm not complaining about the system as much as how the game/product line is presented. [/quote'] The DOJ era setting books provide just about the right amount of skinning for me. I dont want any skinning in the genre books or ultimate series. So far so good from my perspective.

 

 

I've played M&M. System sucks... hard... but DAMN I love their books. Look at 'em! They make you go "ooohhh!" at the color and the dynamic emphasis on flavor and fun and character.

I prefer workable mechanic books to coffee table books. Gee, pretty picture, but wth does it do?

 

Look at the Hero books. Often crappy art, poor layout, and most of that... IMO... is driven by a constant focus on mechanics and rules. We've got the big black book for the mechanics and rules. The supplements should be more than that... and to tell the truth, I can't stand 'em.

Then dont buy them. Vote w/ your dollars.

 

Dense text' date=' mind numbing detail, very little flavor... [/quote']

Yeah, they're great! Content jammed in with a shoe horn. Good ROI from my perspective.

 

and these boards reflect that. A mechanics system is not the complete game. Hero just seems, to me, to be missing an emphasis on the other half of the game... the actual story and character and flavor that one uses the mechanics to create!

And what Im saying is that while you might feel that way and are welcome to do so, I dont feel that way.

 

I like the seperation between flavor and mechanics currently en vogue in HERO System books. In fact, as indicated in a few of my reviews, if anything I want them more seperated. I prefer to have the flavor bits in one section and the mechanic bits in another section rather than interleaving them all together as is currently done.

 

The HERO System is the "Toolbox" system. Thats the niche it absolutely owns.

 

The HERO System is an acquired taste, but the people that like it really like it. To put it into beer terms, it's like a high-quality micro-brewery. It puts out limited runs of specialized beers. Some people are never going to seek them out, going with mainstream swill or some other micro-brewerys specialty beer. But afficianados are going to make an effort to keep themselves stocked up on HEROBeer Premium Reserve. For them to screw around with their recipe or to try and release a new beer friendlier to the 6-pack crowd is not a good risk for them; neither are likely to endear them to their hard core fans, and the odds of it supplanting the mainstream beers are slim.

 

 

The engineering/programming/lawyer mindset keeps putting out tech manuals... and we aren't getting anything like, say, the old Strikeforce... that is an end product (highly customizable, still)... not just more rules.

Strike Force is cool, but its basically one GM's notes on how he ran his campaign. It's got a lot of useful mentoring type bits in it, particularly considering the time frame in which it was released.

 

But its not a good template for RPG supplements in general IMO. I wouldnt buy very many supplements of that nature -- I know how I want to run my game and while it's interesting to read about someone elses style from time to time it's of less overall use than a book of resources for me to implement as I see fit.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Carpenter's Tools and the Hero System Toolkit

 

Role-playing games have two components, the core and the skin. The core describes how things interact with one another, and the skin brings life and imagination to these things. The differenece between Hero and for example D&D is that Hero's Core is very tight and well oiled, open and ready for any challenging interactions, but doesn't come with much a skin at all. D&D has a very weak core, often with its current designers changing there minds often and have very little consistance. But it comes with a much more intricate skin, full of color and depth. Often in Hero, much of the skin is custom designed by the players and GM, while in D&D the mechanics are often rewritten by the DM and his\her players.

As a general note, the fact that D&D concentrates on a single genre makes this fact even more pronounced. (The skin is easier to define, but often this means that many things are not considered so that the core suffers.)

Personally, I started into D&D and then got into Hero. I still play D&D more, (though mostly because I'm more proficent with it and most of my local players and DM/GMs are resistant to anything not D20,) and think this is because a game with a good skin is easier to draw new players in with. But often times (as in my case,) once the player finds all the problems with the core, they move on to some system with a sturdier core, often with less skin (Though by this time the player is often skilled at making/enhancing his own.) If you want to make the game more well known, you make a strong skin, if you want to make it appeal to many hard core gamers who are willing to do more work, a more robust core is important.

I think sidekick and the genre books are a good move, not removing the core, but making the skin more appealing. (I wish that the major genre books were more able to be played alone from the core book, though the core book should be just that, about the core, like it currently is.)

I agree. And good sig.