Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

[MitchellS]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

While I have no problem with the Summon approach (it just needs to be looked at as any Stop Sign power)' date=' I'd suggest that your approach would work better with a weak Entangle linked to Life Support: UAO, followed by TK or Stretching with a Physical Manifestation to carry them as GL flys.[/quote']

The problem with entangle is that the characters inside can be allowed to leave. Entangles don't turn on and off but it is safe to assume a character can open and close his force wall at will.

 

With the life support, I just find Usable By Others to be a broken advantage. Green Lantern might have 50 people in the bubble or 2. I think just buying the Life Support as Area Effect should be good enough, but that's just me.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

Oh I'm Mr Party Pooper today: also from the FAQ:

 

A: Yes, a character could summon such an object (e.g., a Base, Vehicle, or Computer), subject to the GM’s approval. The character must apply the Amicable Advantage at the Slavishly Loyal (+1) level, since he has full control over the object. Additionally, if he Summons the same specific Vehicle every time (or the like), he must pay for the Specific Being (+1) Advantage, unless the GM waives it. Derive the cost of Summon from the total cost of the object, not its cost divided by 5.

 

Which indicates that these might be a lot more expensive than first envisaged...

 

 

While most of these are good points, the Specific Being advantage doesn't seem to really apply. If you leave your sunglasses in the bubble when it's "unsummoned", they will end up on the ground rather than remaining in the bubble (reasoning from special effect here). If a character had a vehicle that they brought from some dimensional pocket, then Specific Being would be appropriate, but the GL bubble is created anew each time.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

I don't believe people "enter" Green Lantern's force bubble either. He just puts it up around them.

 

That's SFX. Being willing to enter the Summoned bubble allows the character to surround them with it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

While most of these are good points' date=' the Specific Being advantage doesn't seem to really apply. If you leave your sunglasses in the bubble when it's "unsummoned", they will end up on the ground rather than remaining in the bubble (reasoning from special effect here). If a character had a vehicle that they brought from some dimensional pocket, then Specific Being would be appropriate, but the GL bubble is created anew each time.[/quote']

 

That is a direct quote fromthe official FAQ...but I agree: there would only be disadvantages to summoning a specific vehicle - damage would carry over, for example, whilst summoning a specific individualcan be very useful.

 

On there being summoned missiles in official products, I'm just telling you what it says in the FAQ: you can't get a cheap EB/RKA by summoning a missile, and quite right too; even if it wasn't official, you'd never get away with it in my game. I don't know what product it is in, but just because it is in a product doesn't necessarily mean that's the final word.

 

I'm just off to summon a skintight vehicle that doesn't do anything but provide 30 DEF, and a 20d6 EB, and all for 52 points. Bargain.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

I think the intention there is that you take the total points that vehicle is built on and divide it by 5 once for the Summon' date=' and not take the points and divide it by 5 for being a Vehicle and than again by 5 for the Summon.[/quote']

 

You are absolutely right, Caris. I'd just scanned the FAQ and my wife was on at me that the children needed picking up or something. I tried to tell her this was more important, but I guess I got distracted anyway: didn't think it through.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

I'm just off to summon a skintight vehicle that doesn't do anything but provide 30 DEF, and a 20d6 EB, and all for 52 points. Bargain.

 

Any vehicle you could buy with Summon you could buy cheaper by just buying it as a Vehicle, since Summon would require the Slavishly Loyal Advantage.

 

So I'm failing to see a balance issue here. The character is actually paying extra for his Force Bubble Vehicle just to get the special effect of creating it from nothing.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

I don't have Ultimate Vehicle, but I've now looked at the FAQ and noticed this:

 

A character may not use Summon in this way to substitute for another power. For example, a character cannot Summon a bunch of swords and hand them out to his friends; that’s HKA, Usable By Others. As always, common sense, dramatic sense, and the GM’s discretion apply.

 

It seems that the force bubbles, cruise missiles etc would clearly violate this injunction - it is a way to get around building the effect with powers, isn't it?

 

These force bubbles are a good idea,my concern is that they seem too powerful, and at lower level I'd certainly allow them in a game I ran, even if they are not, technically, a 'perfectly legal build'.

This might be true, but...The Omega Beam Effect from USPD is a summon. As are the missiles.

Gadgets and Gear feature Doc Ock style arms and senseor spheres bought as "Followers"

 

apparently, Steve thinks such constructs (given GM approval) are just fine.

 

But then again, GM approval might be needed for Energy Blast in some games, depends of the GM...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

Any vehicle you could buy with Summon you could buy cheaper by just buying it as a Vehicle, since Summon would require the Slavishly Loyal Advantage.

 

So I'm failing to see a balance issue here. The character is actually paying extra for his Force Bubble Vehicle just to get the special effect of creating it from nothing.

 

Don't be daft: you buy a missile as a vehicle, use it and it is gone, you've lost the character points: buy it as a summon and use it again and again and again...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

This might be true, but...The Omega Beam Effect from USPD is a summon. As are the missiles.

Gadgets and Gear feature Doc Ock style arms and senseor spheres bought as "Followers"

 

apparently, Steve thinks such constructs (given GM approval) are just fine.

 

But then again, GM approval might be needed for Energy Blast in some games, depends of the GM...

 

I haven't got USPD, so I have no idea what you are talking about. Mind you, ANYTHING, given a sufficiently drunk GM is 'just fine'. In this instance, if Steve thinks it is OK to summon a missile that does the same job as an EB or a RKA for a fifth of the points you'd normally have to spend on them if bought as powers, he is wrong, as I'm sure he would readily accept. We could ask him...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

Any vehicle you could buy with Summon you could buy cheaper by just buying it as a Vehicle, since Summon would require the Slavishly Loyal Advantage.

 

So I'm failing to see a balance issue here. The character is actually paying extra for his Force Bubble Vehicle just to get the special effect of creating it from nothing.

 

That was irony, Andrew, please tell me you see that?

 

Look, you've got a car. You park it in the garage. You don't carry it into space or into the villain's underground lair. How can you think that summoning it from nothing in not a major advantage? In fact you are not summoning the vehicle, you are summoning an identical vehicle with none of the disadvantages of a real vehicle,eg the damage it took last time you used it. I really shouldn't print what I'm thinking....

[Sean Waters]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

OK, couple of things:

 

1. I don't mean to have a go at anyone, it is just the way I express myself. If anyone feels offended by the, admittedly, sharp to one of some of my responses, I'm sorry. Call me, we'll meet and I'll buy you a beer.

 

2. Summon is a STOP power. If you summon a swarm of 64 killer gnats from dimension X who are loyal and have the powers Flight 30" and 4d6HKA (killer proboscis), all for 81 points, you are abusing the system and you're not getting in my game. Actually you might, but you'll find yourself liquidised by a whole group of villains using broadly the same schtick. If the power is being used in a clearly abusive way, whether it is 'a perfectly legal build' or not, it clearly should not be allowed. That is my opinion, and I doubt whether the Hero glitterati would disagree. The point I so laboriously make is that it is a question of balance and IMO, harking back to the original point of the thread, 15 DEF is too much, unless you are playing in a game in which every charcter can dish out that kind of damage in which case 15 DEF is pointless, so I would not allow it.

 

3. Nothing to do with the original rant, but I doubt whether GL force bubbles weigh anything, let alone 6.4 tonnes...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

I don't have Ultimate Vehicle, but I've now looked at the FAQ and noticed this:

 

A character may not use Summon in this way to substitute for another power. For example, a character cannot Summon a bunch of swords and hand them out to his friends; that’s HKA, Usable By Others. As always, common sense, dramatic sense, and the GM’s discretion apply.

 

It seems that the force bubbles, cruise missiles etc would clearly violate this injunction - it is a way to get around building the effect with powers, isn't it?

 

These force bubbles are a good idea,my concern is that they seem too powerful, and at lower level I'd certainly allow them in a game I ran, even if they are not, technically, a 'perfectly legal build'.

It really depends upon one's idea of "powerful". Building a force bubble as a Summoned Vehicle really isn't all that awesome. It's extremely limited. As mentioned above by JMHammer, the bubble will take it's first Phase doing nothing, not even letting people in unless they got in on their own. Even saying they do, such people would (by my ruling at least) have to reduce their DCVs to half. Or then could wait until the bubble's next Phase to pick them up (or rather, to have the GL character put them inside). Unless the GM is being extremely kind, it'll take a Phase per person loaded in (or the GL guy can Rapid Fire his TK to shove them all in, which he could easily fail at with the OCV penalties. All this takes time and actually puts people at risk.

 

With a normal FW, all you do is spend a 0 Phase action turning on the FW in the desired area. If you wanted to move the FW, that gets tricky (since you technically can't, even when using TK). You'd normally have to buy it UAA, "attack" the target with it, and then start moving the target(s) on the next phase with TK. Some GM's just hand wave that and say you can move the bubble as long as you can move what's inside it.

 

I think using FW/TK/LS is a more powerful solution, and rightfully more expensive. A Summoned Vehicle is a less so with its combat drawbacks.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

On there being summoned missiles in official products' date=' I'm just telling you what it says in the FAQ: you can't get a cheap EB/RKA by summoning a missile, and quite right too; even if it wasn't official, you'd never get away with it in my game. I don't know what product it is in, but just because it is in a product doesn't necessarily mean that's the final word.[/quote']I agree that the final word is left to the GM. The rules for it, and official write-ups for it are in The Ultimate Vehicle, and there's another example in the back of the USPD

 

The thing is, if you wouldn't allow one to Summon a Vehicle as the mechanic for a cruise missile SFX, how would you do it? I'm not trying to derail the threat on theoretical write-ups, but I'm curious how'd you'd build an attack that, if it misses, will try again and again until it hits or dies trying. The only mechanic I've found that accurately accomplishes this is the Vehicle rules. The only way to pop a vehicle into existance is using Summon. As least as far as I know.

 

I'm just off to summon a skintight vehicle that doesn't do anything but provide 30 DEF, and a 20d6 EB, and all for 52 points. Bargain.

A vehicle with an CV of 3 (which is used for attacking with the EB) and no movement. You'd actually have to get outside and "push" just to get it around. Bargain?

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

Don't be daft: you buy a missile as a vehicle' date=' use it and it is gone, you've lost the character points: buy it as a summon and use it again and again and again...[/quote']

 

You seem to have confused yourself with your own examples. We're not talking about a missile, we're talking about a force bubble. The force bubble doesn't spontaneously explode after it drops off passengers.

 

For the same points a character could buy an always present flying tank with higher defenses and armament. Since a tank is clearly a vehicle, I doubt anyone would bat an eye. The only reason, IMO, people are objecting to this is that it doesn't "look" like a Vehicle, even though it clearly acts like one.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

That was irony' date=' Andrew, please tell me you see that?[/quote']

 

I saw it and ignored it.

 

 

Look, you've got a car. You park it in the garage. You don't carry it into space or into the villain's underground lair. How can you think that summoning it from nothing in not a major advantage? In fact you are not summoning the vehicle, you are summoning an identical vehicle with none of the disadvantages of a real vehicle,eg the damage it took last time you used it. I really shouldn't print what I'm thinking....

 

For one extra point he could instead buy 16 force bubbles with the same stats and have them all present at once. I don't think being able to resummon a single bubble is nearly as great an advantage as you're insinuating.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

OK, couple of things:

 

1. I don't mean to have a go at anyone, it is just the way I express myself. If anyone feels offended by the, admittedly, sharp to one of some of my responses, I'm sorry. Call me, we'll meet and I'll buy you a beer.

I'm offended. I don't drink beer.

 

2. Summon is a STOP power. If you summon a swarm of 64 killer gnats from dimension X who are loyal and have the powers Flight 30" and 4d6HKA (killer proboscis), all for 81 points, you are abusing the system and you're not getting in my game. Actually you might, but you'll find yourself liquidised by a whole group of villains using broadly the same schtick. If the power is being used in a clearly abusive way, whether it is 'a perfectly legal build' or not, it clearly should not be allowed. That is my opinion, and I doubt whether the Hero glitterati would disagree. The point I so laboriously make is that it is a question of balance and IMO, harking back to the original point of the thread, 15 DEF is too much, unless you are playing in a game in which every charcter can dish out that kind of damage in which case 15 DEF is pointless, so I would not allow it.

Keep in mind that Summon isn't as cheep or efficient as you think it is. I couldn't care how killer the gnats are if they're only DEX 10 SPD 2 with no defenses. Sure, they look scary, but they're just bugs! Step on them! (or swat them....)

 

As per the DEF of the suggested bubble, it seems perfectly reasonable considering the bubbles own movement and CV. It's a guarenteed hit to attack it.

 

Another point.... Vehicle bubbles are easier to Dispel.

 

3. Nothing to do with the original rant, but I doubt whether GL force bubbles weigh anything, let alone 6.4 tonnes...

Every try to move one?

 

Though after you mention this, I'd add in Persistant Gliding to make them "weightless", with the Limitations for muscle powered movement (such as a drawn cart) from TUV.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

In this instance' date=' if Steve thinks it is OK to summon a missile that does the same job as an EB or a RKA for a fifth of the points you'd normally have to spend on them if bought as powers, he is wrong, as I'm sure he would readily accept.[/quote']

 

This is not as clear as you think.

 

Missiles have to move to the target on their own. Energy Blasts instantly move to the target. Advantage: EB.

 

Missiles have their own senses. To fire them, a character has to sense the target himself, *then* the missile has to Detect the target itself. Thus there are two sets of senses that can be foiled to disrupt the attack. Energy Blasts can strike whatever the character can sense. Advantage: EB.

 

Missiles can be attacked and destroyed en route to the target. EBs cannot. Advantage: EB.

 

EBs can be spread, bounced, rapid fired, etc, etc. Missiles can't. Advantage: EBs.

 

And Missiles, as "characters," should be subject to the same campaign limits on APs and DCs as a PC, so they won't be doing any more damage when they impact than the PC could do with a straight EB.

 

I'm sure there are a host of other cases in which Summoning a missile is not as effective as simply blasting your opponent.

[JmOz]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

On 15 DEF: I figured for a game with 10-15 DC's as normal, thus a normal attack will be able to bust it on a good roll

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

I like this idea and have approved it for use in my campaign.

 

I'd give you some Rep for it, but it won't let me - I've given you rep too recently, apparently.

 

In any case, good job, JmOz!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

I'm offended. I don't drink beer.

 

Keep in mind that Summon isn't as cheep or efficient as you think it is. I couldn't care how killer the gnats are if they're only DEX 10 SPD 2 with no defenses. Sure, they look scary, but they're just bugs! Step on them! (or swat them....)

 

As per the DEF of the suggested bubble, it seems perfectly reasonable considering the bubbles own movement and CV. It's a guarenteed hit to attack it.

 

Another point.... Vehicle bubbles are easier to Dispel.

 

 

Every try to move one?

 

Though after you mention this, I'd add in Persistant Gliding to make them "weightless", with the Limitations for muscle powered movement (such as a drawn cart) from TUV.

 

OK,sorry about he beer thing.

 

If I add +10OCV to the gnats it it only another 4 points in a summon: the point is they would not be allowed in a reasonable game. Yes they are easy to kill, bu they are deadly andf there are lots of them. Think how you'd feel if your GM used them against you...lets assume you swat 3/4 of them,and only half of the remainder hit, that is still 8 major hits,probably enough to take you out in one phase. Seems too powerful.

 

Look, I like the force bubble summon idea: I have said so several times: my concern is that 15 DEF. Given that you drive the things from outside, if you stick an enemy in there it is a lot cheaper than a massive entangle. If you are sticking friends in there they are not going to be resisting the grab, so OCV is not really a concern: you can do them all at once, and whilst the vehicle may be 'stunned' when it first arrives that doesn't mean it isn't a useful defence if, for example, you summon it in front of you. It seems to be as powerful as a force wall, but isn't necessarily going down if breached (it has 40 STR,presumably to carry the load: not actually necessary if it is going to be moved by external means: I would have the STR bought back to zero).

 

I'm not arguing with the principle, I'm arguing with the execution. Summon is a STOP power, and should not be used to do things that you can simulate with powers. You could, for instance buy the vehicle tomove your mates around safely and then protect it with yout own force wall, bought as a power. I'm pretty confident that the force wall you could buy as a power would nto have 15 PD/15ED, 0END: you could not afford it (that would be 112 active points!).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

On 15 DEF: I figured for a game with 10-15 DC's as normal' date=' thus a normal attack will be able to bust it on a good roll[/quote']

 

I agree that it is a useful amount of DEF. If you were using less I'd be far less worried about the power being abused as a cheap substitute for Force Wall.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

You seem to have confused yourself with your own examples. We're not talking about a missile, we're talking about a force bubble. The force bubble doesn't spontaneously explode after it drops off passengers.

 

For the same points a character could buy an always present flying tank with higher defenses and armament. Since a tank is clearly a vehicle, I doubt anyone would bat an eye. The only reason, IMO, people are objecting to this is that it doesn't "look" like a Vehicle, even though it clearly acts like one.

 

No. You buy a flying tank,it gets trashed and then you have to go and build a new one. You summon a force bubble, it gets trashed, you summon a new one good as new: it doesn't have the limitations of a 'real' vehicle. Oh and if you summon it you don't need to worry about getting through the front door.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

The thing is' date=' if you wouldn't allow one to Summon a Vehicle as the mechanic for a cruise missile SFX, how would you do it? I'm not trying to derail the threat on theoretical write-ups, but I'm curious how'd you'd build an attack that, if it misses, will try again and again until it hits or dies trying. The only mechanic I've found that accurately accomplishes this is the Vehicle rules. The only way to pop a vehicle into existance is using Summon. As least as far as I know.[/quote']

 

Let's reason from effect...missile likely to cause physical damage. We'll leave out explosion/armour piercing etc at present, but you can add it in if you like. It is probably going to be a RKA. Say 4d6, so 60 active points.

 

First thought was making it continuous, to represent it's persisitent nature, with a limitation that it can only cause damage once, but that dosen't work wellwithout considerable fudging.

 

So...what is the 'advantage' of the homing missile (incidentally an older version of Champions had a 'homing' advantage,but that seems to be gone now...)? Well I suppose it is more likely to hit as it gets more goes, so we can simulate that with simple OCV levels, say 5 of them- that should be enough to hit most opponents unless they are doing a martial dodge...so that'll be 10 more points.

 

Now, the point about a missile is that takes some time to lock on and hit - no one is going to be sure how long - it depends, and it could be KO'd before it hits.

 

OK increased onset time seems appropriate: you fire it and then it takes extra time to cause damage. Bit of a fluff here: take it at the extra phase level (-3/4) but each time you launch a missile, roll 1d6: on a 1 it locks on quickly, so it hits at half your DEX on the same phase, on a 2 it hits on the next segment,on a 6 it takes a full turn (you can play with the numbers, or just allow a set time to assume it locks on and hits).

 

Aditional limitation: can be destroyed by a hit theat targets DVC 10 and does 5+ BODY (-1/4) - this may seem low but in effect, even if it is destroyed it has caused your opponent to lose a phase.

 

Your GM may make you buy some levelof indirect too. Finally you should really buy charges, say 16 (+0).

 

Special effects are that you launch a missile and it flies about trying to hit the target. Most of the time it succeeds due to the high OCV, but sometimes it crashes into the ground or some other piece of scenery. It takes a variable time to lock on, delivers it's damage and is done. The multiple attempts to attack is just a special effect: the actual effect is that it is more likely to hit. Once fired you can forget about it, but you can't stop it: to do that you'd need to buy a dispel as a 'killswitch' power.

 

Final cost: 60 active points, -1 limitations, 30 real points +10 for the OCV, 40 real points for 16 homing missiles.

 

Work for you?

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

It wouldn't be that much more expensive to go ahead and give the thing Flight.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

It wouldn't be that much more expensive to go ahead and give the thing Flight.

 

...and laser cannons