Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

[JmOz]

Even those of us who have played for a while sometimes have problems with certain effects. One of the one's I have always had trouble with were the GL bubbles.

 

The Bubbles moved people around, gave them Life Support, and protected them from outside attacks. Simmple enough to do in truth UNITL you see the price tag of doing this for 8 people (seemed the right number to me). The price was put simply out of proportion for what it did (as I deem this mostly a plot power to get heroes where they need to be and save innocence)

 

Well while showering today the solution hit me, and it was all about reasoning from effect:

 

The basic effect is to move people in a hostile enviroment from point a to point b while protecting them

 

My first thought was FW, TK, & LS UBO x8, all linked together in a 125+ point monstrosity, and I fixated on this, as it was the only way I could see to do this.

 

But going back to effect, in essence he is creating a means of transport: so here is the power I came up with

 

34 Create Energy Bubbles: Summon 75-point, Expanded Class of Beings Very Limited Group (+1/4), Amicable Slavishly Devoted (+1) (34 Active Points)

 

and here is the energy bubble sheet itself

 

Val Char Points Notes

06 SIZE 30.....Length 4.00", Width 2.00", Area 8.00" Mass 6.4 ton KB -6

40 STR 0.......HTH Damage 8d6 END [4]

10 DEX 0.......OCV 3 DCV -1

02 SPD 0...... Phases: 6, 12

15 DEF

16 BODY 16 0 16 12-

0" Ground Movement 6 -12 0"

1" Water Movement 2 -1 1"

0" Leaping 0 0 0" 56 Total Characteristics Points

 

Cost Powers END

19 Life Support , Safe in High Pressure, Safe in High Radiation, Safe in Intense Cold, Safe in Intense Heat, Safe in Low Pressure/Vacuum, Self-Contained Breathing

 

Total Powers & Skills Cost: 19

 

Total Cost: 75

[JmOz]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

It is not mentinoed, but as imagined GL would then use his TK to tow it around

[Hermit]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

That's brilliant!

 

I'd run into the same darn problem myself before. I am so stealing this.

[JMHammer]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

I see nothing wrong with doing it the way you describe. It just seems unnecessarily complicated to me. Here's how I did it for my Animated Justice League Green Lantern adaptation:

 

First, he has Telekinesis:

Str 53 TK, Affects Porous, Fine Manipulation, +1/4 of Variable Advantages (+1/2)

If you're using a VPP instead of a Multipower, you wouldn't bother with the two adders and you'd probably need less Str and a simple Area Effect-1 Hex or something similar for an Advantage (or even Area Effect-1 Hex-Nonselective, which is how the above build does it instead of making multiple unopposed Grabs with the TK).

 

Second, he has Life Support:

Whatever Safe Environments you need plus Self-Contained Breathing, Usable Simultaneously-2 People At Once (+1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Area Effect-4" Radius (+1)

This lets you apply the Life Support to the character himself plus everyone within a 4" Radius whose center hex can be some distance away from the character.

 

Using both of these together on a group of targets means the group is picked up and moves with the character while being protected from "the elements" - if real protection from damage becomes an issue, there's a seperate Force Wall power that can be applied. The special effect, whether the Force Wall is running or not, is that all of the targets are englobed together in a single sphere of green energy.

 

With reasonable Power Frameworks and/or Limitations, it's really not that expensive. And all the powers which contribute to the effect are used by the character in combat and for other purposes anyway so there is no need to build this as a special, one-use, effect. Your Summon construction might be the only way to do it if the character depends entirely on a fairly modest VPP to create all his effects.

 

Best wishes,

John H

[JmOz]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

That's brilliant!

 

I'd run into the same darn problem myself before. I am so stealing this.

 

Thank you

[JmOz]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

I see nothing wrong with doing it the way you describe. It just seems unnecessarily complicated to me. Here's how I did it for my Animated Justice League Green Lantern adaptation:

 

First, he has Telekinesis:

Str 53 TK, Affects Porous, Fine Manipulation, +1/4 of Variable Advantages (+1/2)

If you're using a VPP instead of a Multipower, you wouldn't bother with the two adders and you'd probably need less Str and a simple Area Effect-1 Hex or something similar for an Advantage (or even Area Effect-1 Hex-Nonselective, which is how the above build does it instead of making multiple unopposed Grabs with the TK).

 

Second, he has Life Support:

Whatever Safe Environments you need plus Self-Contained Breathing, Usable Simultaneously-2 People At Once (+1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Area Effect-4" Radius (+1)

This lets you apply the Life Support to the character himself plus everyone within a 4" Radius whose center hex can be some distance away from the character.

 

Using both of these together on a group of targets means the group is picked up and moves with the character while being protected from "the elements" - if real protection from damage becomes an issue, there's a seperate Force Wall power that can be applied. The special effect, whether the Force Wall is running or not, is that all of the targets are englobed together in a single sphere of green energy.

 

With reasonable Power Frameworks and/or Limitations, it's really not that expensive. And all the powers which contribute to the effect are used by the character in combat and for other purposes anyway so there is no need to built this as a special, one-use, effect. Your Summon construction might be the only way to do it if the character depends entirely on a fairly modest VPP to create all his effects.

 

Best wishes,

John H

 

I disagree, The issue is not if you are running with only a Moderate VPP, but rather if you are using a MP & EC combo, which is what my gut says to do with it.

 

As I said above, I explored the idea of doing it essentialy as you did but I found it to be to expencive for what it does, Your own version dedicates something akin to 200 points towards it (BTW Your AJL has got me thinking of finishing mine, good job on it).

[JMHammer]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

JmOz said:

I disagree, The issue is not if you are running with only a Moderate VPP, but rather if you are using a MP & EC combo, which is what my gut says to do with it.

 

As I said above, I explored the idea of doing it essentialy as you did but I found it to be to expencive for what it does, Your own version dedicates something akin to 200 points towards it.

I hear you and understand where you're coming from on this. But my version "dedicates" hardly any points at all toward this effect. If the character has all the component powers already anyway (save, perhaps, for the Usable on Others / Area Effect modifiers on his Life Support) then it doesn't cost much at all to perform this feat. In fact, it costs nothing at all!

 

John H

[Sean Waters]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

Taking a bit of a lateral thinking approach, if all you want to do is move people, and keep them alive while you are doing it you could use teleport, extra time and moves through intervening space.

 

That would be cheap.

 

Mind you they'd die when they arrived....back to the drawing board...

[OddHat]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

Even those of us who have played for a while sometimes have problems with certain effects. One of the one's I have always had trouble with were the GL bubbles.

 

The Bubbles moved people around, gave them Life Support, and protected them from outside attacks. Simmple enough to do in truth UNITL you see the price tag of doing this for 8 people (seemed the right number to me). The price was put simply out of proportion for what it did (as I deem this mostly a plot power to get heroes where they need to be and save innocence)

 

Well while showering today the solution hit me, and it was all about reasoning from effect:

 

The basic effect is to move people in a hostile enviroment from point a to point b while protecting them

 

My first thought was FW, TK, & LS UBO x8, all linked together in a 125+ point monstrosity, and I fixated on this, as it was the only way I could see to do this.

 

But going back to effect, in essence he is creating a means of transport: so here is the power I came up with

 

34 Create Energy Bubbles: Summon 75-point, Expanded Class of Beings Very Limited Group (+1/4), Amicable Slavishly Devoted (+1) (34 Active Points)

 

and here is the energy bubble sheet itself

 

Val Char Points Notes

06 SIZE 30.....Length 4.00", Width 2.00", Area 8.00" Mass 6.4 ton KB -6

40 STR 0.......HTH Damage 8d6 END [4]

10 DEX 0.......OCV 3 DCV -1

02 SPD 0...... Phases: 6, 12

15 DEF

16 BODY 16 0 16 12-

0" Ground Movement 6 -12 0"

1" Water Movement 2 -1 1"

0" Leaping 0 0 0" 56 Total Characteristics Points

 

Cost Powers END

19 Life Support , Safe in High Pressure, Safe in High Radiation, Safe in Intense Cold, Safe in Intense Heat, Safe in Low Pressure/Vacuum, Self-Contained Breathing

 

Total Powers & Skills Cost: 19

 

Total Cost: 75

 

Fully agreed and well done. I've found Summon to be useful for all kinds of odd effects, and a few of my characters use something like this, though I usually build the "bubbles" as Vehicles with an AI pilot.

[levi]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

...Well while showering today the solution hit me' date=' and it was all about reasoning from effect:...[/quote']

 

Oftentimes a Man does his best thinking in the bathroom.

 

Bravo!

[Enforcer84]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

That's brilliant!

 

I'd run into the same darn problem myself before. I am so stealing this.

I gotta second that notion.

 

I'm finally coming around.

 

Although the first couple of times I saw "Summon" based powers; "duplication" based powers, or gadget be built with "Follower" rules, I was not enthused. But I'm coming around and this looks perfect.

I'll admit these power constructs seem a little complicated, but not so much that it invalidates them.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

I really like the idea, but I do have a couple of reservations:

 

1. You seem to be summoning vehicles. Summon only really works on living things, which would allow opponents,for instance, to mind control them and so take them off you. If you could summon the inanimate you could, say summon a 'base' the size of a phone box with massive defences and stand there and make rude gestures at your opponents.

 

2. You have allocated 15 DEF. Too high. That is equivalent to a 15/15 Force wall with 0 END and persistent: 150 points. Way, way too useful/powerful IMO. You may be in a high powered campaign, but remember GL is a planet shaking character - one of the most powerful in the DC Universe,not known for their low powered characters.

 

Excellent creative use of the system though.

[OddHat]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

I really like the idea, but I do have a couple of reservations:

 

1. You seem to be summoning vehicles. Summon only really works on living things, which would allow opponents,for instance, to mind control them and so take them off you. If you could summon the inanimate you could, say summon a 'base' the size of a phone box with massive defences and stand there and make rude gestures at your opponents.

 

Summoning both Vehicles and Automatons is legal with GM's permission under the current rules, as per (iirc) the Ultimate Vehicle.

[MitchellS]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

Summoning both Vehicles and Automatons is legal with GM's permission under the current rules' date=' as per (iirc) the Ultimate Vehicle.[/quote']

I believe it's in the FAQ as well.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

Yep, perfectly legal build.

 

Great idea by the way! I've been using the Summon rules for Vehicles for quite a while now (great for the Lightcycles from Tron) but it never occured to me to build those bubbles with them.

 

Other creative uses for Summon:

 

Cruise Missiles (a vehicle or automaton that seeks out it's targets and keeps trying until hit hits or is destroyed)

Magic Wards (a computer bought with senses and a Mind Link to the summoner)

[JMHammer]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

Yep, perfectly legal build.

Legal, yes. Appropriate...

 

The more I think about it, the less I like it. You just get too much for the points you're spending. For 34 Active Points (and only 34 Real Points even without any Limitations) you're getting:

a- 15 PD/15 ED Force Wall, 0 END Cost, with some extra height and width. Let's lowball this and say it's worth 100 points.

b- 16 PD/16 ED "extra" defense for the Force Wall which has a form of Ablative applied to it except it comes off after the base defense. And it's also 0 END Cost with the extra height and width. Pretty nice: Let's say 25 points.

c- Life Support (Safe Environment: Zero Gravity; Safe in High Pressure; Safe in High Radiation; Safe in Intense Cold; Safe in Intense Heat; Safe in Low Pressure/Vacuum; Self-Contained Breathing), Usable Simultaneously (up to 2 people at once; +1/2), Ranged (+1/2), Area Of Effect (4" Radius; +1). That's 60 points. It could be a little less in certain cases by dropping the AoE and increasing Usable Simultaneously for more individuals as required.

 

Leaving off the Telekinesis or whatever else needed to move the group to be contained by this thing because the base/vehicle version has the character doing this anyway. But you could build in movement, a lot of it even, and get even more of a cost break.

 

That's a total of 185 points of effect. And you're getting it for only 35 points. Apply (-2) total Limitations to both versions and it's 62 Real Points vs 12 Real Points. And the only additional downside to using the Summon is having to wait a Phase while the Summoned thingy "gets its bearings" and then maybe another Phase or two while the passengers embark.

 

None of this would be a problem if this just moved a group of characters or what-have-you out of combat, but the combat effects are significant. It could all just be hand-waved if the effects on combat were negligible. But they're not.

 

How does one build a power whose effect is to pick up and move things around without touching them? Well, there are a number of reasonable ways. The most straightforward is Telekinesis, another good option is Stretching with some extra Indirect and Doesn't Cross Intervening Space, a third (usually frowned on) is Strength with Usable at Range. But you could also build a Summon with an Invisible (maybe even Desolid), strong critter with a lot of movement – or heck! a powerful TK build of its own – and a Mind Link which will skitter around and move things at your bidding and WOW you can get the effect you want for maybe 1/5 of the points you'd spend building it one of the "normal" ways because of the cost basis of Summon. Again, you'd have to wait a Phase or so after you first summon the thing, but after that little bump (which can happen way before combat) you get your TK-like effect and it can work independently of your main character, allowing him to put the double-whammy on his opponents. Is this a reasonable way to build a telekinesis power?

 

Reason from effect, but don't ignore the straightforward way of doing things. Any of you experienced guys can come up with ways of making things happen that are better in almost every respect than the straightforward methods; Duplication, Summon, Followers, Vehicles and a few other powers often figure prominently in these techniques because you get multiples of points for each point you invest. But just because the exact mechanics of the rules allow you to do something a certain way doesn't make it a good way to get what you want.

 

To repeat something I said in an earlier message in this thread: Yes, the "protective force bubble" power is expensive. It's expensive because it provides a great number of benefits. And if you're trying to make it a stand-alone power or want to build it on the fly from a small Variable Power Pool you might have difficulty or might not be able to do it at all. But if you already have all the components of the power except for the Usable on Others part of the Life Support then it really doesn't cost much at all; at worst you use a Naked Advantage for that which itself can be built on the cheap as a Multipower slot or for a few allocated points from a Variable Power Pool if you want it to be as inexpensive as possible.

 

-Does your character have some TK? Check. (You can make multiple Grabs with TK even if you don't have Area Effect on it, one Grab per Phase. And it's safe to assume these are unopposed Grabs so you can do them as Zero-Phase Actions up to the limit of your TK's total Strength.)

-Does your character have some Force Wall? Check. (You don't have to keep the Force Wall up just to fly around, even in space, unless you're anticipating that the to-be-englobed passengers are going to be subject to attack.)

-Does your character have the requisite Life Support? Check. (This isn't an expensive part of the package and can come entirely from a 60-point or even smaller VPP. But it's easy to just build it all for the character or all but the Usable on Others / Ranged / Area Effect parts and add those as a Naked Advantage through a Power Framework only when needed.)

...and that's it: GL-style protective flying force bubbles are at your command with no (or very, very few) extra points invested. That's reasoning from effect: Effects of powers, used in combination, which you already have. The bubble is just a special effect of two or three powers working together.

 

Respectfully,

John H

[Sean Waters]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

Yep, perfectly legal build.

 

Great idea by the way! I've been using the Summon rules for Vehicles for quite a while now (great for the Lightcycles from Tron) but it never occured to me to build those bubbles with them.

 

Other creative uses for Summon:

 

Cruise Missiles (a vehicle or automaton that seeks out it's targets and keeps trying until hit hits or is destroyed)

Magic Wards (a computer bought with senses and a Mind Link to the summoner)

 

I don't have Ultimate Vehicle, but I've now looked at the FAQ and noticed this:

 

A character may not use Summon in this way to substitute for another power. For example, a character cannot Summon a bunch of swords and hand them out to his friends; that’s HKA, Usable By Others. As always, common sense, dramatic sense, and the GM’s discretion apply.

 

It seems that the force bubbles, cruise missiles etc would clearly violate this injunction - it is a way to get around building the effect with powers, isn't it?

 

These force bubbles are a good idea,my concern is that they seem too powerful, and at lower level I'd certainly allow them in a game I ran, even if they are not, technically, a 'perfectly legal build'.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

Oh I'm Mr Party Pooper today: also from the FAQ:

 

A: Yes, a character could summon such an object (e.g., a Base, Vehicle, or Computer), subject to the GM’s approval. The character must apply the Amicable Advantage at the Slavishly Loyal (+1) level, since he has full control over the object. Additionally, if he Summons the same specific Vehicle every time (or the like), he must pay for the Specific Being (+1) Advantage, unless the GM waives it. Derive the cost of Summon from the total cost of the object, not its cost divided by 5.

 

Which indicates that these might be a lot more expensive than first envisaged...

[caris]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

Oh I'm Mr Party Pooper today: also from the FAQ:

 

A: Yes, a character could summon such an object (e.g., a Base, Vehicle, or Computer), subject to the GM’s approval. The character must apply the Amicable Advantage at the Slavishly Loyal (+1) level, since he has full control over the object. Additionally, if he Summons the same specific Vehicle every time (or the like), he must pay for the Specific Being (+1) Advantage, unless the GM waives it. Derive the cost of Summon from the total cost of the object, not its cost divided by 5.

 

Which indicates that these might be a lot more expensive than first envisaged...

 

I think the intention there is that you take the total points that vehicle is built on and divide it by 5 once for the Summon, and not take the points and divide it by 5 for being a Vehicle and than again by 5 for the Summon.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

 

It seems that the force bubbles, cruise missiles etc would clearly violate this injunction - it is a way to get around building the effect with powers, isn't it?

 

Missiles built as Summon have appeared in official products. They're legal.

 

I don't see Summoning a Force Bubble as any more porblematic than Summoning a missile.

[MitchellS]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

Now that I think about it I also believe it takes away from other powers. Why buy a 6d6 Entangle when you can put a "force bubble" on someone for half the cost and be 10 times more effective?

 

There's nothing wrong with using the summon power but I believe that 5E states something to the effect that the most expensive way to do something is usually the correct way.

 

For a force bubble I would use force wall to create it, telekinesis to carry it, and a power skill roll on Green Lantern's own life support to allow him to extend it to the people within the force wall.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

Now that I think about it I also believe it takes away from other powers. Why buy a 6d6 Entangle when you can put a "force bubble" on someone for half the cost and be 10 times more effective?

 

It wouldn't work as an Entangle. It's bought as a Vehicle; someone would have to enter it willingly or be Mind Controlled into doing so. It doesn't have a Power that would let it force someone to enter it or remain inside it.

[MitchellS]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

It wouldn't work as an Entangle. It's bought as a Vehicle; someone would have to enter it willingly or be Mind Controlled into doing so. It doesn't have a Power that would let it force someone to enter it or remain inside it.

I don't believe people "enter" Green Lantern's force bubble either. He just puts it up around them. If you handwave one you can handwave another, and then you are treading on dangerous ground within the rules, in my opinion.

[OddHat]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

For a force bubble I would use force wall to create it, telekinesis to carry it, and a power skill roll on Green Lantern's own life support to allow him to extend it to the people within the force wall.

 

While I have no problem with the Summon approach (it just needs to be looked at as any Stop Sign power), I'd suggest that your approach would work better with a weak Entangle linked to Life Support: UAO, followed by TK or Stretching with a Physical Manifestation to carry them as GL flys.

[MitchellS]

Re: Reasoning from effect/I think I have finaly done it/GL Bubbles

 

Just as a side questions, Jmoz, why did you allow the bubble to have 1" of water movement? Because it floats? I would just consider that to be a special effect of a sealed enviroment.