I'm afraid to ask...

[I WHO AM HE]

Still working on converting a 2nd/3rd ed PC to 4th/5th - and to my horror, I've bumped into what I'm sure will prove a lethal snag or two

 

1) does growth/density exist anymore? One of the MF, Red Giant, had a MP that allowed him to go through a star sequence, including white dwarf and red giant - how do I buy that now?

 

2) way back in the day (with dinosaurs and 2nd ed), armor and LS in a EC or MP was ok. From what I've noticed on some posts, this may not be so. Tell me I'm just having a nightmare!

 

3) what is going on with the cost of LS? It used to cost 30 for complete LS, but I've seen refrence to 45. Uh-oh. What is the cost now? I'm looking for: no breath, imm disease & poison, pressure, temp (function in open space for periods of time) - basically a robotic body. Not immune to rad (fries my circuits), age (I need replacement parts, subject to decay caused by time). Tell me it aint so, I'm still trying to figure out what to do since my character uses EC robot to cover LS, armor, minor density, radio w tracking, and ML (modem). Dear god, is this PC going to be workable! Ahhhh.

 

4) what is the common character point base and limit for a superhero game? Is it still 100 base w/ up to 150 limits, or is it changed?

 

I'll post more questions as I bump into more sharp pointed things.

 

 

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh......

 

Thud.

[MitchellS]

Re: I'm afraid to ask...

 

Yes, growth and density increase still exist but they are powers for characters who can change their size and mass. If your character can get bigger then he should buy growth. If you character is always 30 feet tall then he should just purchase the appropriate powers to represent him being that large: extra Str, extra running, knockback resistance, and some limited stretching.

 

You're not having a nightmare. Those powers were disallowed in power frameworks due to the reworking of how frameworks are supposed to function.

 

The cost of life support went up because there were more options added to it. The Hero System can be more grainy now and so it needed more differentiation between certain things.

 

Superheroes now start with 200 base and up to 150 in disadvantages.

[I WHO AM HE]

Re: I'm afraid to ask...

 

Is growth (at 6 lv +30 str, +6 bdy, +6 stun, -4 dcv 2 hex reach)

density (at 6 lv +30 str, +6 pd/ed, 6 knock resist)

 

Is there anyway to still fit (LS, armor, senses) into them in? (then again, with +100 base points, I suppose I'll survive!)

 

So, for minimal function in space, what points/functions do you need (to make a robot, that is)?

 

200 base and up to 150 in disadvantages

Yesss, world domination will soon fall into my handssss

 

....100 points, bwa-ha-ha-ha! (good news at last )

[Ben Seeman]

Re: I'm afraid to ask...

 

Do you have a copy of 5th Editoin or Sidekick? I would find it extremely difficult to convert my characters if I didn't have the rules I was converting to.

[MitchellS]

Re: I'm afraid to ask...

 

There are certain rules for power frameworks now. Each power framework has a different set of rules. Elemental Controls, as an example, can't have powers in them which do not cost endurance. Certain "special powers," like life support, are not supposed to be able to be put into power frameworks at all. This is to help maintain special effects balances. Power frameworks are no longer designed to only give cost breaks. The special effects associated with them are supposed to be consistent. Robot is a character type not really a special effect.

 

The minimum life support needed to survive in space for short periods of time would be Need Not Breath and Safe Environment: Vacuum.

 

As Ben Seeman stated above, if you're really interested in getting back into Hero then you should at the very least purchase a copy of Sidekick for $10.00. It will answer most, if not all, of the questions you have.

[I WHO AM HE]

Re: I'm afraid to ask...

 

I'm ordering sidekick, but I have a friend I used to play 2nd/3rd edition champions coming down in a week, so I'm trying to be 'prepared'. He's continued playing champions and is up to date with 5th, while I've bounced about a bit and still have the old rules. I'd update my character when he gets here but the PC is rather complicated mess with 6 forms (MF fellow). I want most if not all of the conversion work done before he shows up, so I can exploit the poor fellow and make him GM me and our friends while he's available.

 

Side note: From what I've heard from folks, sidekick sounds like the best choice for my dollar (it lists all the powers/skills/perks, mods, limits, and disads) and the basics of the system, while the main hero book has all that and detailed info on the system, alternate systems and rules, etc. I also read that 5th revised is going to come out soon - does that mean a revised sidekick as well? Should I hold out for a revision? I was going to order the book this Thurs when my paycheck comes in, but I'm not sure what to do now.

[Ben Seeman]

Re: I'm afraid to ask...

 

Since the rules in 5th Revised are left untouched, there will not be a revised Sidekick.

[MitchellS]

Re: I'm afraid to ask...

 

Sidekick won't have a revision. The material there will not change. It's because of some of the things added to Sidekick that 5E got a revision so quickly. But keep in mind that Sidekick does not have all the rules, skills, powers, talents, perks, etc that are in 5E. So some things might seem lacking to you with your more experienced GM.

[I WHO AM HE]

Re: I'm afraid to ask...

 

Fifth Edition, Revised - it is just implementing the errata, then? Will Sidekick also have the same revised version made, and if so, when?

 

Ack - I type slow enough for other answers to slip in between!

 

So, if I want the full range of powers and such, I need both books? I thought the sidekick book was enough to function in a champions universe - lacking the bleeding, hit location, and other traits & systems a more gritty universe requires, but still listing all powers. Does sidekick have everything I'm used to from 3rd edition?

[MitchellS]

Re: I'm afraid to ask...

 

5Er will also have as much of the FAQ that could fit added as well.

[Jhamin]

Re: I'm afraid to ask...

 

According to Steve Long, 5th Rev will

 

-Include all the Erratta

-Include most of the FAQ

-Include most of the free "Genre by Genre" document

-Include *minor* rules changes to Extra Dimensional movement and trigger (the changes to EDM were already published in Sidekick, which is after all several years newer than Hero 5th)

-Be bullet proof and contain an an extra dimensional space large enough to hold all your other books.

 

Please correct me if I'm misquoting......

[Jhamin]

Re: I'm afraid to ask...

 

So, if I want the full range of powers and such, I need both books? I thought the sidekick book was enough to function in a champions universe - lacking the bleeding, hit location, and other traits & systems a more gritty universe requires, but still listing all powers. Does sidekick have everything I'm used to from 3rd edition?

 

Sidekick leaves out a few of the more complex or nitty gritty powers and rules. Things like Variable Power Pools and Transdimensional.

I suspect that if you are used to third then 98% of what you are used to is in Sidekick.

[I WHO AM HE]

Re: I'm afraid to ask...

 

To continue bouncing around...

 

So, if characters are 200 base w +150 max disadv, then...

 

Core avg (back in the day) was

 

def 10-30

att 8d6-12d6

bkgrnd skills 5-15 pt

 

Is this still true? If it is, where are the extra 100 points going? Is it from powers and skills being expanded & made more expensive, frameworks not allowing prior acceptable materials, etc?

 

Thanks

[Blue]

Re: I'm afraid to ask...

 

That all depends on your GM. But those numbers seem in the proper range.

 

I think heroes used to be 150/150 and now are 200/150. Generally the 50pts go to more powers. Stats all cost the same as always. Skills are generally cheaper in 4th & 5th (usually 3pts for a stat-based roll). I can't think of many things that cost more than they did in the earlier editions; some things are just "different". The costs on Flash come to mind.

[Tech]

Re: I'm afraid to ask...

 

The extra points have been suggested to go towards things such as skills overall. However, using the points to go towards refining the character overall has been my suggestion. You could add a few points towards your INT, EGO or PRE so you don't have a 10 INT, 10 EGo and 10 PRE. Maybe actually buy PS: Plumber 13 or less. Buy that little annoying power that allows you to make your teammates hair turn green. Increasing the Base from 100 pts to 200 pts may make you drool but it goes fast.

 

A change not mentioned you should be aware of is that Hunted by VIPER on a 14 or less is no longer 30 or 35 pts. Points received from disadvantages have changed from 3rd ed to 5th ed. If your character for whatever reason greatly increases in cost, beyond the extra 100 pts received from your base, and your GM allows it, you may receive the extra points necessary to pay for your character as a Grandfather bonus.

 

Interesting enough, the base increase did not change the range of defense, attack or anything else in my campaign.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: I'm afraid to ask...

 

Interesting enough' date=' the base increase did not change the range of defense, attack or anything else in my campaign.[/quote']

 

That's been the standard for most published characters as well. Those built to the new "beginner's level" point totals have generally not had higher Characteristics, Damage Classes, Defenses etc. than their 250-pt. predecessors. What they have been is more "well-rounded." Under the old standards beginning characters tended to optimize their points for combat, leading a lot of people (although certainly not everyone) to complain that they couldn't really build their characters with all the Neat Stuff that fit their concept. The new builds add more Skills, Talents and Perks suiting a character's background, and more non-combat and "flavor" Powers which add versatility. More Characteristics are being bumped above the baseline 10, as well.

[I WHO AM HE]

Re: I'm afraid to ask...

 

Oh, sounds like an improvement then. The low values of ego and pre always bothered me, so I'm glad to hear the averages are up. I assume ego average of 12-18 unless egoist, and a pre of 15-40 on average - though these are WAGs on my part. Flash, I understand, is no longer an area effect attack automatically - is it still 10/d6? Have any other defenses become standard (power defense, lack weakness, flash defense?)?

 

How much for LS: no breath, imm pressure, vacuum, imm to disease and poison? I assume that is enough to model a robotic character with. I don't need immortal (I break down), my circuits are vulnerable to EMP and radiation, and long term underwater is just not good for me, though I do not short out (but I will erode eventually...).

 

Our old game included a 10 point bonus (not counted with your total) for back ground skills - so I'll just transfer these over. It's nice to see the PCs will be as competent when not fighting crime as a moderate NPC now! I do not know what is average or expected to qualify as 'well rounded' - is 36 points in skills good, or am I going to qualify as a munchkin (w/current standards). My skill selection is included below:

 

Security Syst, System Op, Comp Prog, Invent, Mechanic, Electronic (3 pt ea) Weapon Smith (Computer & Energy) (4 pt)

AOK: Astronomy, Math, Physics, Electronics, Tech Companies, NY, 80's Music (2 pt ea)

 

I assume the 2nd/3rd ed foci conventions still apply IIF, IAF, OIF, OAF - did OAAF make it? (Obvious, almost accessible focus - used for your tail, wings - parts that required space to use, could be pinned, attacked separately to impair, but remain part of you).

 

What would you think the limit would be for speed - only to use MP slot, no moves or other actions, be? -1/4? I'm not using it on my character, but I had a Kali statue that swung a different sword every phase and am just curious.

 

Again, thanks!

[RDU Neil]

Re: I'm afraid to ask...

 

To continue bouncing around...

 

So, if characters are 200 base w +150 max disadv, then...

 

Core avg (back in the day) was

 

def 10-30

att 8d6-12d6

bkgrnd skills 5-15 pt

 

Is this still true? If it is, where are the extra 100 points going? Is it from powers and skills being expanded & made more expensive, frameworks not allowing prior acceptable materials, etc?

 

Thanks

 

 

While the power ranges are still basically the same (for suggested starting characters) the expectation for points spent on skills has VASTLY increased. This is neither good nor bad... just different.

 

For example. In First or Second Edition, to buy Mr. Fantastic, you'd give him "Scientist 25 or less" One skill with a high roll.

 

These days, the grainy bits have come in, and Mr. Fantastic would have

 

Scientist (Skill Modifier meaning he pays 1 pt. less for every Science skill he buys)

Then... SC: Physics, SC: Particle Physics, SC: Extra-Dimensional Physics, SC: Quantum Physics, SC: Applied Physics, SC: Engineerin, SC: Mechanical Engineering, SC: Fabrication Engineering, SC: Astronomy, SC: Chemistry, SC: Bio-Chemistry, SC: Biology, SC: Exobiology, SC: Metahuman Biology... etc., etc.

 

This is the negative side of where current Hero System philosophy has taken us. The fact that the system can break into small parts that cover very detailed areas is great, but easily this becomes bogged down in mind numbing detail. Is it really worth the time and book keeping and small print on a character sheet to cover every possible science that Mr. Fantastic MIGHT have to reference?

 

Is it really necessary to make Life Support cost so much more to offer the break points?

 

Is it more "mathematically consistent" yes... maybe. Does it make the game more playable? Depends on your style.

 

Basically, the days of characters with 15 points of skills and the rest in powers are long gone. (Not to say you couldn't play that way... but the current source material and game supplements don't really support that kind of play.) The system is much more finely grained, and in doing that, overall point costs went up, without necessarily effecting power levels.

[I WHO AM HE]

Re: I'm afraid to ask...

 

Aargh!!!

 

So, each science needs to be bought up to show competence with the skill? Blech! So a fellow with 5 breakdown skills in physics needs 5 seperate skills, each of which needs to be bought up seperately? Couldn't it be done as per weaponsmith (base cost, each +1 adds a new catagory it applies to, so physics is 3, +4 to add 4 subcatagories of physics you excel at?). Then again, does weapon smith still get bought that way?

 

Does my PC need invent and weaponsmith, for that matter - I do not see him whipping out creations on the fly, as he is not an gageteer, but a slow, laborious fellow w 99% sweat, 1% lucky breakthrough, or do these skills represent the ability to understand devices in the field?

 

Not knowing the breakdown of the sciences (or if a standard breakdown is used) – and needing a degree in physics to breakdown the sub-skills appropriate – can a base physics skill answer a sub-particle question, perhaps with a penalty to the roll – or is it only good for Newtonian questions?

 

I have no idea what skills to break my list down to…. I’m damn good w/tech but not god, my focus is exclusive to hard comp/phsyic w minor in chemistry. I work w energy fields, nano-tech, computer AI and viral, mechanic/computer/electronic engineering. I know some astronomy, mostly the physics aspect, but some base astronomy as well. So – do this topics work, or do I need to break it down more?

 

Oh, and on the topic of sheer panic and terror for my balancing act of converting this MF PC over – do MF share the same XP, or do they each need their own XP. If they each need their own, does that mean that MF in game gives each form its own XP for having played a part in the game (a silly encouragement to MF too frequently) – or is it a single share (which seems awful good)….?

[RDU Neil]

Re: I'm afraid to ask...

 

I probably highly exaggerated the break down of sciences, but I did point in teh direction the game could go if it went extreme. When listing the actual sciences the person knows, you could give them a simple, high Physics roll, and then any "specialist" questions for a sub-category of physics would be at minuses. I think this is a better middle ground between the ultra-vague Science skill, and the ultra-mind-numbing-detailed "list every possible science skill" type of thing.

 

I personally have big time scientists in my game have 2-5 sciences, depending on their specialization. I don't have any omni-paths like Mr. Fantastic in my game.

 

Weaponsmith for someone who knows how to make, customize and fix weapons of common knowledge. I'd only buy Inventor is your guy is creating all new firing mechanisms or strange ammo or whole new weapons systems, etc.

[Jhamin]

Re: I'm afraid to ask...

 

If you are a super scientist it's probably safe to budget a good 20-30 points for skills. It's not as bad as it might be because you are allowed to buy skill enhancers to make skills cheaper and skill levels useable with a tight grouping (like all science skills, or all physics skills).

 

One thing that is nice about the current skill system is that the main book actually comes out and says that a 11- gives you enough to make a living in that field while a 14- makes you the guy the experts call for advice and a 16- makes you world famous. It avoids alot of those "how much do I need to be a master geneticist?" sort of arguments.

 

A base skill in Physics will allow you to answer particle physics questions. Actually having the skill gets you into detailed analysis. An example:

 

PS: Physics - "Hmm. These reading indicate some unusual kinds or radiation. We probably need some shielding"

 

PS: Nuclear Physics - "Hmm. I'm detecting mid level gamma radiation but with some odd emmision signatures in the low range. Their isotopes are probably contaminated with Elerium-115. We will need at least 2.5 inches of lead to stay safe."

[Jhamin]

Re: I'm afraid to ask...

 

If I may make an observation.

 

I WHO AM HE, you seem to be trying to convert an old 3rd edition character "quick and dirty" before you have a chance to really sit down and read the new rules. You are viewing everything through the prism of your experience with the old edition. There are alot of new standards and norms to think about.

 

One of the problems with converting between different versions of Hero is that there generally isn't a this=that sort of equation to fall back on. Generally each new edition is adding new options while streamlining klunky mechanics and evolving the philosopy of the "hero way" of buying powers.

 

I know you said that you were doing this conversion to be ready for a buddy this weekend while you are waiting for your copy of Sidekick to arrive. I suspect that no matter what you end up with, after you sit down and read the rules and look at some example characters you will end up wanting to rebuy your character. You will see so many other ways of buying him you will end up rewriting the guy twice.

 

That said, happy to keep answering questions. So, any others?

[KA.]

Re: I'm afraid to ask...

 

I WHO AM HE,

I strongly agree with Jhamin.

(By the way, Jhamin, if you don't mind my asking, how do you pronounce your user name?

I always think of it as sounding like Jammin' as in "Jammin' to some righteous grooves" which sounds really cool to me.

But it could be J. H. Amin, or J. Hamin, or something else. Just asking. )

 

Anyway, I WHO AM HE, something you might consider is posting your character right here on the boards. There are a bunch of knowledgable "design consultants" here that would be happy to take a crack at it for you. With so many people owning HeroDesigner, it does not take long to put together a character and post it. That way, you could see what a reasonable 5th Ed. version might look like.

Then you could fine tune it to your tastes, without having to go through the pain of asking about rules changes one by one.

 

KA.

[I WHO AM HE]

Re: I'm afraid to ask...

 

Hello Again!

 

I'm sure I'll re-tool the PC once I've had time to go through the book, I am an incessent tinkerer, but I want to have as much done (or perhaps ready to roll) for this weekend.

 

1) 30 pt LS: could this accuratly describe a robot/android?

..Side note, my character, dues ex machina, did not design the bodies he inhabits - in fact barely understands the functions of some - and is constantly struggling to keep them functional. So they suffer from age as he tries to repair battle damage with (typically) inferior human tech.

 

2) 56 pt for a 280 base is enough to buy a satalight (should it be a base or a vehicle) and its computer? Unless the rules have stayed almost the same, I wasn't going to worry about it (it comes up about 1 game in 100).

 

3) when buying followers, do you buy their base (4 100 pt base followers = 30 pt), or do you pay for their total worth (with disads, 4 200 pt followers = 50 pt).

 

4) if I buy (LS/Lack Weakness/???) w cost end, can it go into a framework?

 

5) THE scary question: a PC w MF - do all forms gain the XP (but increases the MF cost), or does each form earn its own XP (quick, MF so all forms get XP!)

 

--) I'll start posting the various bodies!

 

Thanks guys!

 

Charlie Brenner was a small time inventer hoping to make it big with his latest invention, a nano-tech machine that worked off of broadcast commands rather then hard wired programming. The little machines would be able to do fairly impressive things if he could get the backing of a big firm. After a little research spent looking tech firm with patents, he found one that blew the others away, Stek Firm. This company held incredibly innovative patents - though none had been brought to market yet. What he didn't know was that the company is just a front for alien colonists preparing the path for eventually invasion. They sell small amounts of their technology for funds - and to keep a monopoly on the market. While they hold the patents, others are locked out, stagnating earthling development.

Charlie wasn't important to them - but his technology was. Unable to make the machines work without Charlie present, they decided the easiest route was to destroy them and their creator - throwing both into a recycler used to reprocess metals for fabrication. The next robot the invaders created using metal from that recycler didn’t function as expected - its AI insisted it was Charlie Brenner. Charlie Brenner's consciousness was diffused into his nano-tech machines, forming a new life form, the nano-byte.

Nano-bytes infect machines and computers with ease, lodging into the device and creating new circuitry within to allow them to control and alter the devices. Charlie became a group mind of nano-tech machines,

in effect his soul is now the operating system that controls the Nano-bytes. While focused in quantity, Charlie controls the mechanical or digital form he masses in, carrying his personality and intelligence. He did not copy over perfectly and knows he's changed - but he's not sure how. In addition to an imperfect copy of himself, the architecture of the various electronic brains further alter his personality, stretching his sense of self.

What Charlie still doesn't know - his design of nano-tech machine was copied w/out his knowledge and found not to work. The design was radically flawed and showed no promise of being made useful. Charlie was a mutant with an affinity for machines - the years of frustration focused on his nano-machines allowed him to link to them. He litterly put his heart and soul into them.

[Blue]

Re: I'm afraid to ask...

 

1) 30 pt LS: could this accuratly describe a robot/android?

 

LIfe support is compartmentalized. In other words you could buy the ability to resist human disease and biological agents, and the ability to survive in a low pressure, but ignore some of the other options and save yourself points.

 

As for androids, look into the "Automaton" powers when you get hold of a book.

 

4) if I buy (LS/Lack Weakness/???) w cost end, can it go into a framework?

 

I think the rule is "powers that don't NORMALLY cost END are disallowed". But all things are up to the GM's option. I know I allow most things if you add a "cost END" to it.

 

5) THE scary question: a PC w MF - do all forms gain the XP (but increases the MF cost), or does each form earn its own XP (quick, MF so all forms get XP!)

 

Check the FAQ on this website. I believe there's somethign about this in there.