Nero's Boot Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 ...all I can say is, WOW. I loved the sourcebook, and almost all of the villains therein were cool as can be. Dr. Destroyer was everything I imagined he'd be, and seeing stats for Takofanes was pretty mind-blowing as well. A few questions about Dr. Destroyer: Does he survive to the Galactic Champions time period? After all, it should be a simple matter for Zerstoiten to transfer his intellect into a machine format, and thereby cheat the Reaper...assuming he doesn't get a hold of Captain Chronos and use his technology to defeat his little aging problem. Are there any other villains, not listed in Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, that he's created and/or sponsored? For some odd reason, I keep wanting to say Destroyer is behind the transformation of Teleios, as well as the creation of Mechanon. (Hell, in my Champions Universe games, Dr. Destroyer did create these two villains...) Why is Destroyer's intellect below that of Teleios'? This seems a bit odd, that the most dangerous gadget villain in the entire universe is dumber than a "mere" geneticist. I'm assuming this is either a misprint, or there's some reasoning behind it... --that's all for now, folks NB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BishopofB&W Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... In the CU, supertech depends on the ambient level of magic. When the magic drops low right before the cyberpunk era, Dr. D's armor fails along with its life-support and the octogenarian dies with a cough and a gasp. That doesn't mean someone in the GC era couldn't style himself as Destroyer's heir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nero's Boot Posted November 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... In the CU' date=' supertech depends on the ambient level of magic. When the magic drops low right before the cyberpunk era, Dr. D's armor fails along with its life-support and the octogenarian dies with a cough and a gasp.[/quote'] That sucks. Destroyer deserves a better end than that. Maybe a band of cybernetic street samurai, in the Cyber HERO era, pull the old bastard down and kill him! (Heck, it's better than Zerstoiten just dying without any glory. The guy is so evil, he deserves a fitting end.) That doesn't mean someone in the GC era couldn't style himself as Destroyer's heir. ...or maybe Destroyer returns, having hidden his consciousness inside an alien psi-crystal, a piece of technology that does not rely on high magic levels! Mwuahahahahaha, let the galaxy beware! --you know, if all supertech relies on magic being prominent, then the Star HERO era couldn't have happened NB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... You can always ignore the meta-setting or the ambient magic hand-waving it entails and have him survive into the GC era if you want. There's no reason not to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... Supertech in the Star Hero era is far below that of the Champions era. It's all connected by the magic umbilical cord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nero's Boot Posted November 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... You can always ignore the meta-setting or the ambient magic hand-waving it entails and have him survive into the GC era if you want. There's no reason not to. All I'm saying is this: If ambient magic is the sole determination whether or not truly high tech machines can exist, then space empires prior to the Star HERO era could not have existed. --thus contradicting the idea of Malvans in the Champs era being an ancient star-faring people NB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nero's Boot Posted November 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... Supertech in the Star Hero era is far below that of the Champions era. It's all connected by the magic umbilical cord. See my above post for a counter-argument to that idea. --it makes no sense why Destroyer just "croaks," when supertech not dependent on magic obviously must exist NB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... All I'm saying is this: If ambient magic is the sole determination whether or not truly high tech machines can exist, then space empires prior to the Star HERO era could not have existed. --thus contradicting the idea of Malvans in the Champs era being an ancient star-faring people NB The earth is not the whole galaxy, and in many respects is almost a dimension unto itself. Malvans in the past and future have high tech, but it's considered well below superhero tech up to 2020. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... It makes sense if you understand that the level of super-technology needed to keep a 100+ year old man alive was no longer working due to super-technology no longer functioning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nero's Boot Posted November 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... The earth is not the whole galaxy' date=' and in many respects is almost a dimension unto itself. Malvans in the past and future have high tech, but it's considered well below superhero tech up to 2020.[/quote'] ...somehow, the ability to create ships that can violate Einsteinian physics somehow does not allow Destroyer to build a mind-transferal machine, without the use of ambient magic? --something's wrong here NB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nero's Boot Posted November 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... It makes sense if you understand that the level of super-technology needed to keep a 100+ year old man alive was no longer working due to super-technology no longer functioning. ...yet, the Malvans could keep on making ships that go faster than light. -- riiiiiiight NB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... The ability for humans to create those ships did not come back for many, many years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... ...yet, the Malvans could keep on making ships that go faster than light. -- riiiiiiight NB Because their technology wasn't based on super-science. They just had a natural higher tech level than humans due to centuries of building them. Humans became dependant upon super-tech and when it failed they needed to virtually start over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nero's Boot Posted November 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... The ability for humans to create those ships did not come back for many' date=' many years. [/quote'] ...yet somehow it exists for other species. My point still stands. If Earth was somehow outside the ambient magic field of the rest of the material universe, why didn't Zerstoiten just go to Malva, once he felt his suit failing, take advantage of advanced Malvan tech, conquer their empire, and not have to worry about dying ignominously to old age, a fate a villain like him should never succumb to? It seems odd that Zerstoiten's brilliant mind would not notice the rest of the galaxy can keep on using supertech, but Earth started to not be able to, and did nothing to take advantage of this fact.. That is so unlike Dr. Destroyer that it screams "the writers just didn't want to include him in the Galactic Champions time period, and couldn't think of a real reason why." --it seems a cop-out to me NB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nero's Boot Posted November 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... Because their technology wasn't based on super-science. They just had a natural higher tech level than humans due to centuries of building them. Humans became dependant upon super-tech and when it failed they needed to virtually start over. See my above post. If Malvan tech kept working, and Destroyer's tech stopped working, then a canny bastard like Destroyer would have simply started using Malvan tech. --a man like Destroyer doesn't make stupid mistakes like this NB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... ITS ALL HANDWAVING!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nero's Boot Posted November 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... its All Handwaving!!! I know. It's just a gaping plot inconsistancy that my nitpicking mind is trying (hopelessly) to make sense of. -- I'm weird like that, demanding plot consistancy in my roleplaying games NB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... Think about it in the framework of evolution. The Malvans had centuries to evolve their tech levels, and then they reached a certain point and stopped. The human's tech levels took a detour in 1938 because they started using more super-science. This detour lasted until 2020. At that point all super-tech started to fail. The special physics which allowed a man to make a gravity belt no longer functioned. From that point onward humanity had to develop at a normal rate. The species who did not rely on super-science but just used natural technology evolution were well ahead of us by that point. It's not a cop out that Dr. Destroyer didn't survive. It's just the fact that Dr. Destroyer relied on super-tech not normal tech and when it failed the normal technology levels were not sufficient for him to make something to keep him alive. You obviously don't want to see that point and you are free to do with it however you want in your own game. To me it makes simple sense. To you it doesn't. To each his own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... See my above post. If Malvan tech kept working' date=' and Destroyer's tech [i']stopped[/i] working, then a canny bastard like Destroyer would have simply started using Malvan tech. --a man like Destroyer doesn't make stupid mistakes like this NB He can't use it if he doesn't have it, and the fact that Malvan's can make FTL does not mean they can keep dead people alive. Don't confuse TL14, or 15, with meaning ultra-powerful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... ITS ALL HANDWAVING!!! Booyah! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... It's not a cop out that Dr. Destroyer didn't survive. It's just the fact that Dr. Destroyer relied on super-tech not normal tech and when it failed the normal technology levels were not sufficient for him to make something to keep him alive. "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -- Arthur C. Clarke. Inherent in that statement is that its not magic. There is no such thing as super-tech, just different levels of sophistication. Either its tech or its not tech. Genre wise the term just means "really nifty and advanced." Saying it relies on ambient magic means it can't be defined as technology at all - it becomes a mystic artifact. Its hand-waving to make the meta-setting work, but the existance of magic in many genres is completely counter to their founding pillars and totally banal. Especially mundane modern settings and hard sci-fi. If Doc D's powers are tech based they should easily outlast the superheroic age - its simple common sense. The entire meta-setting defies common sense. It may have consistent internal logic, but is doesn't make sense, and that logic doesn't stand up when exposed to the light of varying genre conventions. Or even a simple reading by a critical thinker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... I disagree. Saying that magic twists the laws of physics to allow for the fantastic is just a viable as saying cosmic rays did it, or Tunguska events, or white events, or any of the other game/comic book reasons for why superhumans can exist. When the magic is no longer there the laws of physics can no longer twist: Superman no longer flies (sort of like a yellow sun thing). In the CU magic is a real thing, not just advanced technology. There are aspects of the meta-verse which I don't understand, such as why there are multiple archmages for different planets rather than one for the entire dimension, but I learn to just accept them. The fact that Dr. Destroyer's ping-pong-ball-sized fusion reactors in his armor failed when the rest of the country is still using 1/4 mile square nuclear and coal burners for energy does not bother me at all. As for the Malvans having higher tech levels than the humans without super-tech, that does not bother me at all either. At one time in history the Europeans and the tribesman of New Guinea were the same tech level too. One kept a slow advancement and created spacecraft, the other still uses blowpipes to kill birds and monkeys for food. Different societies evolve at different rates. Humanity became dependant on super-tech for its major services in the CU. The Malvans just kept slowly evolving their technology using natural progression. Yes, it's handwaving but everything is in a superhero game unless you are playing Dark Champions games and looking for total realism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... My understanding of the phenomenon of ambient magical energy is that it "loosens" the physical laws of the universe, to the point where true geniuses can perceive ways to exceed the normal technology of their era so as to create radical improvements in that technology. Consider: the super-gadgeteers of Earth in the contemporary Champions Universe are building on early-21st Century science. The devices they (and the comic-book superbrains they're based on) create are fantastically beyond what they're working from. The effect of magic on physics is what makes that possible. OTOH civilizations like the Malvans, the Maandarians etc. are millennia older than that of us Terrans. They don't rely on bending physical laws; over their long history they've simply discovered and learned to utilize more and deeper physical laws than humanity has. I consider this the difference between "supertech" and "advanced tech." Oh, BTW, regarding the Intelligence of Dr. D vs. Teleios, keep in mind that in HERO the INT stat is defined as having more to do with processing power and speed, rather than raw intellect. Teleios has given himself the human maximum in that capacity, but in breadth of knowledge and inventive capability (represented by Skills and Skill Levels as well as INT), Destroyer far surpasses him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... That sucks. Destroyer deserves a better end than that. To be accurate, he does. Bishop's description is an attempt to be humorous, I think, and it succeeds, but it ignores the text of Galactic Champions. If you're really interested in the overall evolution of the setting, I'd suggest you pick up a copy; it's a fun read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... Why is Destroyer's intellect below that of Teleios'? This seems a bit odd' date=' that the most dangerous gadget villain in the entire universe is dumber than a "mere" geneticist. I'm assuming this is either a misprint, or there's some reasoning behind it...[/quote'] This one got overlooked in the ensuing discussion. Sorry. I have no idea why Teleios' intellect is greater than Dr. Dooms. Probably to show that he is like the High Evolutionary and beyond the confines of mortal man. Of course even his 50 Int is still within the guidelines of not being superhuman. I would also imagine that needing to understand the billions of references to genetic code for every species on the planet takes a great deal of brain power. Genetics are the code of life and the one thing that Dr. Destroyer can't master for himself. Also remember that even though Teleios' Int is greater than Dr. Destroyer's his SC: Genetics roll is actually lower than Dr. Destroyer's due to overall levels. Slow but sure wins the race in this case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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