Nero's Boot Posted November 3, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... To be accurate' date=' he does. Bishop's description is an attempt to be humorous, I think, and it succeeds, but it ignores the text of [i']Galactic Champions.[/i] If you're really interested in the overall evolution of the setting, I'd suggest you pick up a copy; it's a fun read. Heh, already one step ahead of you, Steve! --I ordered it today NB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BishopofB&W Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... To be accurate' date=' he does. Bishop's description is an attempt to be humorous, I think, and it succeeds, but it ignores the text of [i']Galactic Champions.[/i] If you're really interested in the overall evolution of the setting, I'd suggest you pick up a copy; it's a fun read. I can't help it. Every time I try to visualize the Warlord's flying base engines giving out, I juxtapose it with an image of Wile E. Coyote skating off a cliff and the expression on his face when he realizes he's run out of ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archangel Gabri Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... My understanding of the phenomenon of ambient magical energy is that it "loosens" the physical laws of the universe, to the point where true geniuses can perceive ways to exceed the normal technology of their era so as to create radical improvements in that technology. Consider: the super-gadgeteers of Earth in the contemporary Champions Universe are building on early-21st Century science. The devices they (and the comic-book superbrains they're based on) create are fantastically beyond what they're working from. The effect of magic on physics is what makes that possible. OTOH civilizations like the Malvans, the Maandarians etc. are millennia older than that of us Terrans. They don't rely on bending physical laws; over their long history they've simply discovered and learned to utilize more and deeper physical laws than humanity has. I consider this the difference between "supertech" and "advanced tech." Is anyone here familiar with the game Torg? In it there was a set of metaphysical and cosmological rules called Axioms that defined the limits of reality in any one section. They defined the maximum devolopment of Magic, Social development, Religion, and Technology. Each piece of reality (called a Cosm) had additional Laws that colored the behavior of the Axiom rules. An example of this is the Nile Empire, and it's a perfect parallel for this discussion. The Nile Empire had a Tech level roughly equal to 1933 Earth, but had a Law providing for Weird Science. Weird Science permitted short term leaps way beyond the Tech limit for the world. It was not actual technology, although it had the trappings (e.g Van de Graf generators, bunsen burners, beakers, etc.), and without that Weird Science Law, wouldn't function at all. This sounds like the Super-Tech you're talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... Heh, already one step ahead of you, Steve! --I ordered it today Excellent! I hope you'll enjoy it. While you won't find the complete history of the 2020 period set forth -- GC really isn't the book for that -- there are definitely some more details that I think you'll enjoy. Every time I try to visualize the Warlord's flying base engines giving out, I juxtapose it with an image of Wile E. Coyote skating off a cliff and the expression on his face when he realizes he's run out of ground. LOL. I hadn't quite thought of it that way. I always pictured this final, mad, ultimately futile scramble to save the place before it all crashes to Earth and kills every one of the bastards. Brings a smile to my face every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyDrug Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... Is anyone here familiar with the game Torg? In it there was a set of metaphysical and cosmological rules called Axioms that defined the limits of reality in any one section. They defined the maximum devolopment of Magic, Social development, Religion, and Technology. Each piece of reality (called a Cosm) had additional Laws that colored the behavior of the Axiom rules. An example of this is the Nile Empire, and it's a perfect parallel for this discussion. heh. I met the writer of the game Torg. i'll refrain from further comment as I have nothing nice to say about the man. The Nile Empire had a Tech level roughly equal to 1933 Earth, but had a Law providing for Weird Science. Weird Science permitted short term leaps way beyond the Tech limit for the world. It was not actual technology, although it had the trappings (e.g Van de Graf generators, bunsen burners, beakers, etc.), and without that Weird Science Law, wouldn't function at all. This sounds like the Super-Tech you're talking about. But it is absurd. The CU is supposed to be a comic book universe. No comic book universe has magic vulnerable/dependent tech. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nero's Boot Posted November 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... Excellent! I hope you'll enjoy it. While you won't find the complete history of the 2020 period set forth -- GC really isn't the book for that -- there are definitely some more details that I think you'll enjoy. I really enjoy my HERO sourcebooks and supplements; after I finish my Champions collection, I'll move on to Star HERO, and then after that, on to Fantasy HERO. --I also ordered VIPER, as well as Arcane Adversaries; I'm on a VERY serious villain-binge right now NB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyDrug Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... I really enjoy my HERO sourcebooks and supplements; after I finish my Champions collection, I'll move on to Star HERO, and then after that, on to Fantasy HERO. --I also ordered VIPER, as well as Arcane Adversaries; I'm on a VERY serious villain-binge right now NB Me too. But I want many of my old 4th ed. villains updated and reinserted. Unfortunately, I lack, personally, some of the forementioned 4th ed books for the aforementioned villains. But Power Crusher, Rainbow Archer, the Zodiac, Force, Chasm, Hammerhead...just off the top of my head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... Actually, Malvan technology *can* extend lifespan, basically indefinitely. The Phazor of Malva has, IIRC, been ruler for millenia. Other noteworthy feats of Malvan technology include: probability manipulation, matter manipulation and creation, self-maintaining technology that can keep working for longer than any Malvan has been alive, and sufficiently advanced warships that even the Varanyi never considered attacking them ( IIRC, it is mentioned somewhere that one Malvan ultradreadnought could take on an entire Terran or Varanyi fleet, circa the Terran Empire period, and slaughter it ). So, yeah, actually, ATRI 14 tech pretty much *does* mean "Whatever you want to do," at least to a limited extent ( at least compared with ATRI 15 and beyond tech; my own personal scale places 15 as Culture-level, and 16 as "Space God" ). As for why Dr Destroyer couldn't just steal Malvan tech?? Because the Malvans do not take kindly to attempted tech theft, and have the power to enforce this. Besides, by the time Dr D needed external aid, his space tech was failing too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... It ain't just Destroyer that it affected. All the paranormals were affected as well. The good news was that Takofanes died once and for all. Bad news is that a lot of others lost their powers or equipment as well. Like Defender. But there is a plot twist that means Mechanon comes back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... I'd hardly call that "good news." The *original* master villain really shouldn't just drop dead randomly and permanently. Especially when its established previous that *even after literally, actually dying, he can bring himself back.* Granted, he'd need to wait for the magic to return. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jhamin Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... I have to say that from this and previous threads this seems to be the #1 complaint about Galactic Champions. Lots of folk have a problem with the bleakness of the ending of the current age of Heroes. Not a hardfought last stand, not a "walk off into the sunset" end, just a pyrric victory over Tyrranon that ends up with everybody sort of peatering out. A change in campaign limits doing what the heroes couldn't. The rest of the book is pretty great, and I guess it's more important to take the end of modern heroes as a preamble to the Galactic Age and try to ignore it's implications for modern games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nero's Boot Posted November 4, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... So, what villains survive to thye Galactic Champions era, aside from Mechanon? --hopefully, we'll see Teleios, or else a descendent of Teleios NB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... There is a descendent of Defender and a new Firewing. But everyone else snuffed it. Oh and Metaphysician. I have let it be known in previous threads that I do not like Takofanes, so yes This is Good News that he died. And if you disagree well then Ya Boo Sucks ! And if Takofanes don't like how he died he can always take it up with Tyrannon as it was Tyrannon's fault in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirViss Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... If I remember right, Cateran is said to have survived, and so did the Slug. Other people would know better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightray Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 I'd hardly call that "good news." The *original* master villain really shouldn't just drop dead randomly and permanently. Especially when its established previous that *even after literally, actually dying, he can bring himself back.* Granted, he'd need to wait for the magic to return. . . Of course, Galactic Champions covers the period toward the beginning of the new superheroic era. As any LSH fan can tell you, eventually someone will write in ancient plot elements as a new twist. So even though GC says Takofanes is gone, that's no guarentee he won't pop up in someone's GC campaign... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... If I remember right' date=' Cateran is said to have survived, and so did the Slug. Other people would know better.[/quote'] Oh yes I was forgetting those two. No stats for Cateran but Slug gets real powerful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobGreenwade Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... In the CU, supertech depends on the ambient level of magic. When the magic drops low right before the cyberpunk era, Dr. D's armor fails along with its life-support and the octogenarian dies with a cough and a gasp. That doesn't mean someone in the GC era couldn't style himself as Destroyer's heir. I have something in the next (I think) Digital Hero addressing this exact question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Watts Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... I think you guys are taking the near-future presented in Galactic Champs way too seriously. Not only can you obviously make any changes you want to for your own campaigns, as always, you're also not taking into account the line-wide historical reboot that happens in 2017 when Dr. Destroyer, Takofanes and Man O'War team up to destroy the multiverse just before the release of 6th Edition and Foxbat saves the day by taking over the powers of Entropus and... oh, snarf, I've said too much, haven't I? Nevermind. dw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandi Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... I'd hardly call that "good news." The *original* master villain really shouldn't just drop dead randomly and permanently. Admittedly, the *irony* of him leaving life, not with a bang but a whimper, is kind of tasty. And, regarding Galactic Champions itself: I thought Viperia also made it to that time, but I could be mistaken (only skimmed the book in the store, making Sinistar jokes). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobGreenwade Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... And' date=' regarding Galactic Champions itself: I thought Viperia also made it to that time, but I could be mistaken (only skimmed the book in the store, making Sinistar jokes).[/quote']She's alive, well, and back to making trouble for the galaxy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... She's alive' date=' well, and back to making trouble for the galaxy.[/quote'] Apparently she's also matured quite a bit in the meantime, and is leading the reborn VIPER. A more serious and competent Viperia is not a comforting thought. Just to summarize, besides VIPER and Viperia (and Nama), contemporary CU characters from other books who survive to or have counterparts in the future include: Mechanon - massively upgraded, and changed in more than just power; Defender - another Harmon, descended from the first Defender, and leading the new Champions; Firewing - a new holder of the title with a somewhat different agenda, and even more power; Slug - the original, but enhanced; Cateran, although as mentioned, no stats are given for her. Istvatha V'han is still causing massive trouble in the 31st century. The Star*Guard has been reborn in the GC era. There is at least one Empyrean active in this period - Thalya, a member of the new Champions. Also, the Golden Age hero Bulletproof was accidentally bumped forward to the far future, and is also a Champion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... So' date=' what villains survive to thye [i']Galactic Champions[/i] era, aside from Mechanon? --hopefully, we'll see Teleios, or else a descendent of Teleios NB As is known?? The Slug survives, along with a band of his created Elder Worm. ( this, btw, being a big argument against Takofanes dropping dead; if the *Slug* can manage a way to survive low mana times. . . ) Cateran is also around, though she has long since abandoned villainy of any sort. Also[spoil]due to the final plot of Luther Black and DEMON, Sharna Gorak the Destroyer is unleashed into the 31st century.[/spoil] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... Of course' date=' [i']Galactic Champions[/i] covers the period toward the beginning of the new superheroic era. As any LSH fan can tell you, eventually someone will write in ancient plot elements as a new twist. So even though GC says Takofanes is gone, that's no guarentee he won't pop up in someone's GC campaign... True enough. If I were running a campaign, one potential element of the background would be that. . . [spoil] Takofanes, naturally enough, raises himself from the dead. . . only now, he has his full sanity and intellect from the Turakian Age. IE, that which allowed him to, well, conquer the world and hold it. Twice. OTOH, Sharna Gorak is back, too, only his personality has been completely subsumed by Luther Black. Naturally enough, the two engage in warfare, with the universe as the prize. Kal-Turak wants to make an entire undead galaxy with which to expand and conquer other dimensions, while Black/Gorak wants to flood the place with Qlippoth, warping it and merging it with himself in order to become a King of Edom *without* their help. [/spoil] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BishopofB&W Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... As is known?? The Slug survives, along with a band of his created Elder Worm. ( this, btw, being a big argument against Takofanes dropping dead; if the *Slug* can manage a way to survive low mana times. . . ) spoil] I may be mistaken, but I thought that hibernation was a natural ability of Elder Worms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaphysician Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and... Admittedly, the *irony* of him leaving life, not with a bang but a whimper, is kind of tasty. And, regarding Galactic Champions itself: I thought Viperia also made it to that time, but I could be mistaken (only skimmed the book in the store, making Sinistar jokes). Ah, yes, forgot her. Viperia and her dad Nama both survived as well. Currently, Nama has created a new VIPER from the random minor criminal group using the name, and is using it for training Viperia in leadership and other subtler arts ( and little else, IMHO ). Yes, Viperia seems to have grown up. Be scared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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