Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and...

[Metaphysician]

Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and...

 

I may be mistaken' date=' but I thought that hibernation was a natural ability of Elder Worms.[/quote']

 

"Natural" in the sense that they don't have to learn it. Elder Worm still are, by their very nature, quasimystical creatures.

[BishopofB&W]

Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and...

 

I have something in the next (I think) Digital Hero addressing this exact question.

 

 

Funny, I had a dream where I was writing a Digital Hero article....(not really;))

[Lightray]

True enough.

 

If I were running a campaign, one potential element of the background would be that. . .

 

[spoil]

Takofanes, naturally enough, raises himself from the dead. . . only now, he has his full sanity and intellect from the Turakian Age. IE, that which allowed him to, well, conquer the world and hold it. Twice.

 

OTOH, Sharna Gorak is back, too, only his personality has been completely subsumed by Luther Black.

 

Naturally enough, the two engage in warfare, with the universe as the prize. Kal-Turak wants to make an entire undead galaxy with which to expand and conquer other dimensions, while Black/Gorak wants to flood the place with Qlippoth, warping it and merging it with himself in order to become a King of Edom *without* their help.

[/spoil]

Well, I'd think bigger. One of the genre tropes is to resolve longstanding story arcs -- e.g., Darkseid and the Anti-Life Equation in the "Quiet Darkness" in LSH.

 

So. I'd have Takofanes show up, back from death and undeath again. Our heroes will have to scramble to contain his power (of course he's more powerful now), and figure out who the heck he is. After mighty battles, they'll be on the verge of success...

 

And that's when Kal-Turak would show up. He'll be enraged that Takofanes is claiming to be him. Takofanes will be enraged about the "impostor". Our heroes will be caught in the middle.

 

See, you get to answer "what happened to Takofanes" AND "what happened to Kal-Turak", both of which are kind of plot mysteries. Takofanes just drops dead (apparently), and Kal-Turak just goes away and some time later there is Takofanes.

 

It is obviously a plot set-up.

[Half Baked]

Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and...

 

Can I just say I liked the ending of the modern age of superheroes as outlined in Galatic Champions. The huge battle for Earth and then the massive aftershocks of the consquences of the sacrifices made. The way Dr Destroyer, Warlord and other villains met their end seemed sweetly ironic and fitting. What worse way for a bunch of megalomaniacs to meet their fate. Death, not with a glorious end, but facing complete and utter failure as all their power fails.

 

It is all internally consistent considering the assumptions of CU:

 

Assumption #1: All superpowers are based on ambient magic levels being high.

 

Assumption #2: Comicbook/super science beyond the modern levels is effected by magic. It is just a special effect of ambient magic levels. This explains why some powerful devices are not mass produced and marketed. They only work for the creator or some other user.

 

These assumptions work well because they provide a wide enough framework to fit any super powers or technology seen in the comics. Plus, they explain why super technology has little wider impact without the need for overly complicated explanations. Does the CU really need anything more than that?

 

From those assumptions comes the after effect of all the magic being gone after the battle to repulse Tyrannon. Dr Destroyer dies because the technology that was the basis of his powers was not real technology at all, but a special effect of the magic. It looked like technology, it acted like technology, but it wasn't real technology. In effect, he was a scientific fraud. When his powers fail he hasn't the strength to find alternatives in the time left to him. Maybe his arrogance cannot take such failure and he goes into shock and mental decline

 

When creating game worlds you need to start off with some basic assumptions from which you can develop the world in the direction you want. Some are small, some are big. However, every roleplaying gameworld, literary, comic or movie world have basic assumptions that explain why they are different from Earth and the Earth timeline. Those at Herogames made their assumptions with the Champions Universe. Make your own for your version. However, you should accept that CU has its own internal consistency when given their assumptions.

 

Hang on, how did Mechanon survive when the technology that built him went out

[Metaphysician]

Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and...

 

Well, I'd think bigger. One of the genre tropes is to resolve longstanding story arcs -- e.g., Darkseid and the Anti-Life Equation in the "Quiet Darkness" in LSH.

 

So. I'd have Takofanes show up, back from death and undeath again. Our heroes will have to scramble to contain his power (of course he's more powerful now), and figure out who the heck he is. After mighty battles, they'll be on the verge of success...

 

And that's when Kal-Turak would show up. He'll be enraged that Takofanes is claiming to be him. Takofanes will be enraged about the "impostor". Our heroes will be caught in the middle.

 

See, you get to answer "what happened to Takofanes" AND "what happened to Kal-Turak", both of which are kind of plot mysteries. Takofanes just drops dead (apparently), and Kal-Turak just goes away and some time later there is Takofanes.

 

It is obviously a plot set-up.

 

 

. . .I don't know about that.

 

In any case, the epic element of the plot I was figuring was "Kal-Turak and Luther Black go to war, with the universe as the prize and the Federation and heroes caught in the middle." This would definitely be for mega epic heroes only, though.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and...

 

He didn't. Or rather, he didn't remain active; when the mana level collapsed, he shut down.

 

Its just that this happened while he was floating in interstellar space on the opposite side of the galaxy, and he wasn't discovered by sentients again until *after* the mana level recovered.

[Kristopher]

Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and...

 

Assumption #1: All superpowers are based on ambient magic levels being high.

 

Assumption #2: Comicbook/super science beyond the modern levels is effected by magic. It is just a special effect of ambient magic levels. This explains why some powerful devices are not mass produced and marketed. They only work for the creator or some other user.

 

Well, you know what happens when you assume...

 

Seriously, the "everything is actually magic" concept is one of the worst recuring ideas in comics and RPGs.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and...

 

If I had been in charge of the HERO universe(s), I would have set up two timelines at least.

 

One timeline would be the Champions Timeline, and would bear a strong resemblence to the Champions timeline we have now. However I'd set up a much different timeline for after modern times in the Champions universe.

 

In the timeline I came up with, the world would eventually hit critical mass with superpowers and supertechnology and there would be a massive war between the superheroes and the supervillains. Kingdom Come is a major inspiration for the meltdown here. Needless to say, the effects would not be all that far from a nuclear war in terms of effect. Most of the world's population and most of civilization goes FUBAR. There's a post-apocalyptic period for a time, though there are a few outposts of isolated supertechnology around.

 

After centuries of conquest and expansion by one of the enclaves, the world is finally united under a single world government. Superheroes and supervillains, the source of the destruction of the old world are outlawed in the new world order. "Deviants", those possessing powers and abilities beyond those of ordinary people, are hunted down and either destroyed or forced to work for the government. All legitimate supertechnology is in the hands of the government and no scientific research or technology development is allowed outside of authorized government laboratories. Nightmares of Future's Past is a major inspiration for this genre right here.

 

Eventually, the ruler of the world is revealed to be the man who in fact was responsible for the devistation of most of the planet in the first place, Doctor Destroyer. The superheroes of the age overthrow the dictator and free the world from his evil thrall. Imprisoned and impounded supertechnology is released, including a working star drive that Doctor Destroyer was sitting on but never used. There's a mass exodus of humanity into space during this time. It is entirely possible that Doctor Destroyer manages to escape into space and possibly Teleios as well.

 

A few centuries after the exodus, we have the world of Galactic Champions. Higher tech levels and greater powers, and certain old threats that Doctor Destroyer thought he had managed to lock away such as Takofanes and a few others manage to return.

 

The other timeline has the Terran Empire in it. It is a more SF universe, more realistic alien races, and the only extraordinary thing (outside of the technology) are psionic powers. Were I to authorize a Danger International sourcebook, it would be set in this timeline. Agents, villanous organizations, and each side working to develop unpredictable but potentially dangerous psi powers. In the cyberpunk timeline, the technology has gotten better and so for that matter have the psionic powers and psitech, until they reach their level of development in the Terran Empire timeline.

 

The galactic maps for the two timelines would be totally different. What works for the superhero universe doesn't really work all that well with the SF universe, though in practice I'd probably end up including the alien races from the SF timeline in the superhero universe just because. But not all alien races from the superhero universe necessarily work in a more SF universe.

[Doug Limmer]

Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and...

 

Seriously' date=' the "everything is actually magic" concept is one of the worst recuring ideas in comics and RPGs.[/quote']If you're going to have a single timeline where superheroes can make a gadget do almost anything at one time, and later have a non-super high-tech era, you almost have to do something like that.

 

The way I think of it is this: when the magic level is high, it allows scientists certain 'shortcuts' in the science. Maybe they need less power; maybe they don't need as much to gain critical mass, or the like. The scientists still follow scientific procedure, it's just that the natural laws are different enough to allow super-effects. Then, when the magic goes away, the 'shortcuts' stop working, and the scientists all have to re-learn how to do things the hard way. By the time Galactic Champions shows up, they've figured out how to do most of the same things the hard way.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and...

 

If you're going to have a single timeline where superheroes can make a gadget do almost anything at one time, and later have a non-super high-tech era, you almost have to do something like that.

 

The way I think of it is this: when the magic level is high, it allows scientists certain 'shortcuts' in the science. Maybe they need less power; maybe they don't need as much to gain critical mass, or the like. The scientists still follow scientific procedure, it's just that the natural laws are different enough to allow super-effects. Then, when the magic goes away, the 'shortcuts' stop working, and the scientists all have to re-learn how to do things the hard way. By the time Galactic Champions shows up, they've figured out how to do most of the same things the hard way.

 

Yeah. I recently designed a character who had a field around them that was like the CU magic, only more so - technobabble was enough to get things going.

 

However, everything she did _was_ based on scientific principles. She observed, she she inferred, and then she designed. Everything was done following the scientific method.

 

It's just that as soon as it left her field, the laws of physics applied differently, and it didn't work.

 

"SuperScience" is science. It's just working with a different set of baseline physics. Ones that make life easier.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and...

 

Which is still the case in the CU. Just because its ambient mana that makes science easier, doesn't make it not science.

[Kristopher]

Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and...

 

It's not good science because it fails the reproducability test over time.

 

"Using scientific principles" doesn't make something scientific. Hermetic magic used a quasi-scientific approach, and was nothing but hokum.

 

Again, the "mana level" kludge is crap. We would have been better off with two or three entirely independent timelines. One for superhumans, one for the magic/fantasy setting, and one for all of non-magic, non-superhumans settings.

[Kristopher]

Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and...

 

If you're going to have a single timeline where superheroes can make a gadget do almost anything at one time, and later have a non-super high-tech era, you almost have to do something like that.

 

It was a mistake to cram everything into one timeline to begin with.

 

The way I think of it is this: when the magic level is high, it allows scientists certain 'shortcuts' in the science. Maybe they need less power; maybe they don't need as much to gain critical mass, or the like. The scientists still follow scientific procedure, it's just that the natural laws are different enough to allow super-effects. Then, when the magic goes away, the 'shortcuts' stop working, and the scientists all have to re-learn how to do things the hard way. By the time Galactic Champions shows up, they've figured out how to do most of the same things the hard way.

 

 

The rules of reality don't change.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and...

 

It's not good science because it fails the reproducability test over time.

 

"Using scientific principles" doesn't make something scientific. Hermetic magic used a quasi-scientific approach, and was nothing but hokum.

 

Again, the "mana level" kludge is crap. We would have been better off with two or three entirely independent timelines. One for superhumans, one for the magic/fantasy setting, and one for all of non-magic, non-superhumans settings.

 

But it _is_ reproducible. SuperTech is completely duplicable. Until a fundamental assumption changes underneath it.

 

Were the laws of physics to change, such that (say) fixed wing aircraft as currently designed could no longer fly... would that make the design unscientific?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and...

 

The rules of reality don't change.

 

When dealing with a genre where people fly by force of will, bounce nukes off their chests, run faster than the speed of light, and throw mountains into orbit, I think that statement is kind of strong.

 

But I'll be sure to quote you to Dr. Strange the next time he takes a stroll through a Ditkoverse.

[Kristopher]

Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and...

 

But it _is_ reproducible. SuperTech is completely duplicable. Until a fundamental assumption changes underneath it.

 

Were the laws of physics to change, such that (say) fixed wing aircraft as currently designed could no longer fly... would that make the design unscientific?

 

The point is that the laws of physics don't change. Our understanding of them has improved, and continues to improve, but the reality itself doesn't change.

 

If, within a setting, genetic anomalies grant strange and terrible powers, then nothing should change that -- it's been established as part of that setting, part of that reality.

 

If, within a setting, man-sized power armor with the combat power of a main battle tank can be built, then nothing should change that -- it's been established as physically possible.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and...

 

The point is that the laws of physics don't change. Our understanding of them has improved, and continues to improve, but the reality itself doesn't change.

 

If, within a setting, genetic anomalies grant strange and terrible powers, then nothing should change that -- it's been established as part of that setting, part of that reality.

 

If, within a setting, man-sized power armor with the combat power of a main battle tank can be built, then nothing should change that -- it's been established as physically possible.

 

Actually, I believe there is speculation that the "laws" of physics may have indeed changed over time (IRL).

 

And it's been established that, in the CU, the laws of physics truly are not a constant.

[SleepyDrug]

Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and...

 

I just prefer the idea that magic is separate from science. Otherwise, super-science and magic would not be a clash of special effects. It's just very weak to, essentially, say that all super-human powers are magic. If that is the case, why wouldn't magic be a universal SFX? Aid to Any Magical Power could then affect any power in the world.

 

This is actually a bizzare paradigm shift. Marvel has no universal power source. DC does have the source, but no one draws on it directly, and it does not effect technology of any type. Hero Alliance had no universal power source. I never read enough, but I don't think Image uses one.

 

I love the HERO gaming system. But there are some real quirks with the setting. Character books filled with good characters that don't seem to be balanced against the suggested "standard" power levels. Why exactly does Cardshark contain itself to Hudson City? Cardshark is the perfect model for a crime organization to operate nation-wide in a world that has arms dealers like the Warlord and drug dealers like Viper. On that note, why does Viper deal in petty crime? And why does magic control all other powers?

 

This is all solved with a simple tweak to the setting. Just like Shapeshift and Damage Shield, the book is written in ink not stone. Change it.

[Kristopher]

Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and...

 

Actually, I believe there is speculation that the "laws" of physics may have indeed changed over time (IRL).

 

Not really. The macroscopic conditions changed, leading to different forces becoming dominant.

[MitchellS]

Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and...

 

I just prefer the idea that magic is separate from science. Otherwise, super-science and magic would not be a clash of special effects. It's just very weak to, essentially, say that all super-human powers are magic. If that is the case, why wouldn't magic be a universal SFX? Aid to Any Magical Power could then affect any power in the world.

 

This is actually a bizzare paradigm shift. Marvel has no universal power source. DC does have the source, but no one draws on it directly, and it does not effect technology of any type. Hero Alliance had no universal power source. I never read enough, but I don't think Image uses one.

 

I love the HERO gaming system. But there are some real quirks with the setting. Character books filled with good characters that don't seem to be balanced against the suggested "standard" power levels. Why exactly does Cardshark contain itself to Hudson City? Cardshark is the perfect model for a crime organization to operate nation-wide in a world that has arms dealers like the Warlord and drug dealers like Viper. On that note, why does Viper deal in petty crime? And why does magic control all other powers?

 

This is all solved with a simple tweak to the setting. Just like Shapeshift and Damage Shield, the book is written in ink not stone. Change it.

The magic things doesn't bother me at all. It's just an explanation as to why the laws of physics can be ignored; and those explanations are necessary for gamers looking for more realism in their games. In comics it doesn't matter why Ironman's armor works, only that it works, but you also see that comic book technology does not affect the real world in any true way. Nothing has changed in comics since The Death of Captain Marvell graphic novel about why super-tech and the heroes who have it do not use it for the betterment of humanity.

 

As far as the Hudson City quirks in the setting I agree. It's either one universe with interchangeable parts or it's not. There's no reason why Cardshark would not be in Millennium City or Vibora Bay or why VIPER and DEMON would not be in Hudson City. If you're going to have a shared world then it should be a shared world.

 

With the rules issues you cite I am really beginning to get a feeling of "I am right and everyone else is wrong" from the publishers here. You are right. The rules aren't carved in stone and things that are obviously flawed should be corrected. I'm not sure what your shapeshift issue is but things like damage shield and "magically" working regeneration need to be fixed to work within the rules.

[JmOz]

Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and...

 

I just prefer the idea that magic is separate from science. Otherwise, super-science and magic would not be a clash of special effects. It's just very weak to, essentially, say that all super-human powers are magic. If that is the case, why wouldn't magic be a universal SFX? Aid to Any Magical Power could then affect any power in the world.

 

This is actually a bizzare paradigm shift. Marvel has no universal power source. DC does have the source, but no one draws on it directly, and it does not effect technology of any type. Hero Alliance had no universal power source. I never read enough, but I don't think Image uses one.

 

I love the HERO gaming system. But there are some real quirks with the setting. Character books filled with good characters that don't seem to be balanced against the suggested "standard" power levels. Why exactly does Cardshark contain itself to Hudson City? Cardshark is the perfect model for a crime organization to operate nation-wide in a world that has arms dealers like the Warlord and drug dealers like Viper. On that note, why does Viper deal in petty crime? And why does magic control all other powers?

 

This is all solved with a simple tweak to the setting. Just like Shapeshift and Damage Shield, the book is written in ink not stone. Change it.

 

Point of Order: In DC if you are refering to "the source" as seen in the 4th World books (New Gods, etc) then it is drawn upon by highfather and used for technology, the mother boxes

 

If you are refering to the Godwave then the gods of myth and those who are empowered by them (wonder Woman, Captain Marvel, etc) are powered by it.

[JmOz]

Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and...

 

For the record:

 

I dislike the magic as well.

 

I personaly do use a partial unified origin in my games, essentialy there are a few sub-classes of humans (Meta & Neo) that are born at random to normal humans (think of it as a really recesive trait). Also a coulpe of sub species of humans with stable traits (Atlanteeans for example). However this just opens the door for certain types of characters.

 

Mental powers exist, as does magic, always has. The problem is that most humans have a hard time harnessing the powers (high manditory limitations) however meta humans are able to harness them with out as much effort (thus less or no manditory limitations), while mental powers is another very rare trait.

 

In a time where there would be little magic (say cyberpunk) it is because there are very few people being born with the appropriate traits, and those who do are not being "awakened". However that coot who thinks that he can comune with spirtis just might be able to

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and...

 

Not really. The macroscopic conditions changed' date=' leading to different forces becoming dominant.[/quote']

No, actually there are some cosmological theories where people tinker with things like the speed of light, but these are far from accepted. Most scientists prefer not to think that constants aren't.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and...

 

Actually, my favorite solution for supertech is to use exotic matter. I just invent some special exotic matter, Element X, that is a component in all supertech. Starfaring races mine the stuff and use it in their FTL drives among other things. Just about every supervillain who has some of the stuff takes extraordinary precautions to ensure that their private supply of Element X doesn't fall into the hands of the government, where it will disappear and never be seen again.

 

It is rumored that there are trace amounts of Element X in the bodies of those superhumans with powers, though this is somewhat disputed.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: Well, I finished reading Conquerors, Killers and Crooks, and...

 

The magic thing sucks.

 

For my games, I figured that there are different types of supertech. Things like blasters are easily replacable. Any supergenius can build a blaster, and any government can reverse engineer one. The army doesn't carry them because, well, they're expensive and bullets work just as well vs 99% of targets.

 

For the kind of crap you find in Mr Fantastic's lab, well, you've got to be a supergenius to understand it. Sure, Ben knows how to fly the Fantasticar, and he can turn on the Interdimensional HDTVs (Earth 4 has HD Playboy Channel, and Earth 15's Sci Fi channel broadcasts the good versions of the Star Wars prequels regularly), but he doesn't know how to fix them. And chronic inventors like Reed have a problem: they're always inventing new stuff, not perfecting old stuff. They don't want to spend 6 months making the Time Bubbles work perfectly, when they can just fix whatever problem happens to arise in 3 or 4 minutes. So even if a government gets ahold of it, not only do they not know how it works, but it's not gonna be working for too much longer unless it gets regular repair.

 

Guys like Iron Man and Doom are paranoid enough to put safeguards in their equipment.