Hero's dropping dead left and right?

[beastialwarlust]

I seem to be having a hard time getting damage classes figured correctly. In the game I'm running I have a character playing a samurai using kenjutsu from the UMA. I ran a test combat between him and another player. the samurai with 2 swipes of his weapon was able to kill the character quickly ....too quickly it seemed. the base damage for a katana is 1 1/2d6 which would make it a DC5. Using lightining stroke adds +2DC which I originally thought would make it a total DC 7( 2d6+1) but after reading the UMA page 102 under killing damage the +2DC from the manuever would actully only add +1DC to the weapon damage making it a DC6 (2d6). Now according the the damage rules in the rulebook in heroic campaigns pg 271 your can add your STR if it exceeds the weapons str min by 5 which would be a STR of 17. Which brings it back up to a DC 7 (2d6+1) and with some lucky rolls could kill most characters with 2 swings of the sword, most characters having a 15 body.. So if I send an NPC villan samurai after them it seems like it will kill them easy since there isn't much armor availble. Also another question the max damage that could be done with the swrd would be 3d6 since you cannot more than double the base damage?

[Monolith]

Re: Hero's dropping dead left and right?

 

Originally posted by beastialwarlust

ISo if I send an NPC villan samurai after them it seems like it will kill them easy since there isn't much armor availble.

This is why there are defensive martial arts maneuvers. Two samurai would be swinging and blocking, dodging, ect. Two samurai do not just stand toe-to-toe and hit each other to see who falls first.

 

Also another question the max damage that could be done with the swrd would be 3d6 since you cannot more than double the base damage?

The katana is 5 DC, that means the maximum damage it can do is 10 DC. That breaks down to 3d6+1.

[beastialwarlust]

Re: Re: Hero's dropping dead left and right?

 

Originally posted by Monolith

This is why there are defensive martial arts maneuvers. Two samurai would be swinging and blocking, dodging, ect. Two samurai do not just stand toe-to-toe and hit each other to see who falls first.

 

Thanks that's what I missed I just needed a slap in the face.

 

and I quote pg 253 "Any modifiers from the maneuver are in effect from whne the character performs the maneuver until the beginning of the characters next phase."

that makes a big difference I didn't realize that manuevers carried in that way.

[Trebuchet]

Combat with Killing Attacks between characters without Armor or other Resistant defenses are going to be very bloody. That's why you use combat maneuvers, and if you can buy armor. Even historically, fights of this nature were usually quick. Unfortunately, HERO does not really have a method to represent the little nicks and cuts that go with such a fight before one of the antagonists is finally killed.

 

You think "most characters [have] a 15 BODY"? Jeez, I have superheroes with less BODY than that (My current superheroine Zl'f has only 12 BODY. Of course with her 38 DEX, your typical samurai facing her would be unconscious before his katana got halfway out of it's scabbard even if he had Fast Draw, so that's OK.), much less "normals" in a martial arts campaign. Of course, if I were playing a character in such a game, I would buy as much BODY as I could afford.

[Uncle Shecky]

Re: Hero's dropping dead left and right?

 

Originally posted by beastialwarlust

I seem to be having a hard time getting damage classes figured correctly. In the game I'm running I have a character playing a samurai using kenjutsu from the UMA. I ran a test combat between him and another player. the samurai with 2 swipes of his weapon was able to kill the character quickly ....too quickly it seemed. the base damage for a katana is 1 1/2d6 which would make it a DC5. ... with some lucky rolls could kill most characters with 2 swings of the sword, most characters having a 15 body.. So if I send an NPC villan samurai after them it seems like it will kill them easy since there isn't much armor availble. ...

 

Keep in mind, a character doesn't die until he's taken twice his BODY in damage; i.e. someone with 15 BODY dies when he reaches -15 BODY, not 0. You are correct though that someone with 15 BODY would be incapacitated by 2 good hits with a sword. Monolith is correct that, with 2 trained combatants, it could be a long fight before anyone lands 2 solid hits; but when those hits get through, some very real damage will result.

 

I think this aspect of the HERO system is very accurate. A few deadly swings with a sword by a skilled and unusually strong warrior would incapacitate someone with no armor and no defensive skills. A 17 STR guy probably wouldn't even need a sword to kill me in real life.

 

The character you describe, while probably cheap compared to many Champions characters, is a superb athelete and trained killer armed with probably the best type of sword ever designed. Give a short sword to a guy with normal stats and skills and it will take him a lot longer to kill an unarmored opponent. No unarmored opponent should expect to survive very long against a samurai, unless they have incredible skills of their own.

 

Many other systems, like D&D, create characters that can seem to get stabbed, shot, burnt, and electrocuted 50 times in one fight without being knocked out (or even stunned). But hit points are intended to take damage avoidance skills into account, not to reflect the damage a character's body can take. In HERO, BODY is meant to reflect that more directly. Characters need other characteristics, skills, or equipment to protect themselves from taking BODY, but fortunately they have lots of opitons.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

Unfortunately, HERO does not really have a method to represent the little nicks and cuts that go with such a fight before one of the antagonists is finally killed.

 

My experience has been that the Hit Location rules often allow for that. Most people discussing Hit Locations emphasize how they can add to lethality in combat, which is certainly true, but the opposite can be true too. On a random HL roll you'll be hitting a limb or extremity almost half the time, which reduces the Body damage by half. Factor in a low damage roll and maybe a little resistant defense, and you often end up taking only 1 or 2 body even from a stroke from a large melee weapon.

[Storn]

Repeat after me; "Martial Block is your friend!"

 

Get +2 OCV/ +2 DCV.

 

A sucessful Block grants first action next phase regardless of Dex. If you are using the Speed chart (our group does not), then it is possible that the "blocked" attacker might go faster... but on those tied phases... nope.

 

Combined with Hold Action, Block and Dodge are the foundations of good martial arts tactics. note: takes less END too! (than most attacks).

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

My experience has been that the Hit Location rules often allow for that. Most people discussing Hit Locations emphasize how they can add to lethality in combat, which is certainly true, but the opposite can be true too. On a random HL roll you'll be hitting a limb or extremity almost half the time, which reduces the Body damage by half. Factor in a low damage roll and maybe a little resistant defense, and you often end up taking only 1 or 2 body even from a stroke from a large melee weapon.

 

That's true; I was primarily talking about Champions combat. I've always just subsumed minor cuts and bruises into STUN taken by a character in a fight. After all, a bloody nose or fat lip hurts, but it doesn't really effect a character's combat ability.

 

We seldom use Hit Locations in our superhero campaign, but we do occasionally when it adds an element of drama or extra difficulty to a situation. In a recent adventure, my character Zl'f was able to target the inside of the arm (-8 to hit) of a supervillain holding a hostage by the throat and knock his hand away so the hostage could be rescued. My character was not actually capable of injuring the villain with a puny little 8d6 attack (especially on an extremity), but she moved his arm just enough to save the hostage. My character, with her 15 OCV, was the only person on the team who could have plausibly pulled that off, especially after a half move. The hostage was the research assistant (and DNPC) of a teammate who was a close friend, so my character knew the hostage personally. He wasn't just some guy off the street, so success was critical.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

Combat with Killing Attacks between characters without Armor or other Resistant defenses are going to be very bloody. That's why you use combat maneuvers, and if you can buy armor. Even historically, fights of this nature were usually quick. Unfortunately, HERO does not really have a method to represent the little nicks and cuts that go with such a fight before one of the antagonists is finally killed.

 

I use Damage Reduction for this:

 

The Alternate form of Combat Luck:

 

50% Resistant PD Damage Reduction

Non-Persistant

Luck Based

 

Or:

 

50% Resistant PD Damage Reduction

Must Be Aware Of Attack

Requires DX Rill

 

Both of these work really well for simulating the little nicks and cuts.

 

If you add a level of Combat luck two samurai with 2d6+1 KA's and 15 body could potentially fight a long time:

 

Average Damage 8 Body

 

8 - 3 (combat luck) = 5

5 / 2 (damage reduction) = 2.5

2.5 rounded in the characters favor = 2

 

Stun is a different problem.

 

Of course - the GM has to make a ruling about stacking combat luck or DR with armor, but in games where armor isn't a major convention it works well

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by D-Man

I use Damage Reduction for this:

 

The Alternate form of Combat Luck:

 

50% Resistant PD Damage Reduction

Non-Persistant

Luck Based

 

If you add a level of Combat luck two samurai with 2d6+1 KA's and 15 body could potentially fight a long time:

 

The only problem I see with your method (and there is much to recommend it) is that buying Combat Luck as a variation of Damage Reduction instead of Resistant Hardened PF/ED is that it's very expensive that way. (Half of my character's 12 PD is already Combat Luck, so her PD just hanging around is only 6.) What values do you assign to the Limitations?

 

I don't want my character to have higher defenses than she has currently (As of this moment she has 9 unspent Experiene Points, enough to purchase considerably better defenses if I wanted them.).

[DrFurious]

I don't want my character to have higher defenses than she has currently (As of this moment she has 9 unspent Experiene Points, enough to purchase considerably better defenses if I wanted them.).

 

For a similar effect to 50% damage resistance, you could buy up your OCV only for the "Roll with Punch" maneuver. I'm not sure what value of a limitation should be -1, -1.5 ?

 

This may better simulate what you're trying to achive survival-wise without walking around like an armored tank.

 

!DrFUROIUS!

[Captain Obvious]

Many of the older Hero supplements suggest that characters have defenses equal to 2 or 3 times the killing attack dice of their enemies. Anything less than that and combats will be very quick and very bloody; anything more than that and the combatants will stand around pounding on each other for hours.

 

If you quick and bloody fights aren't a problem for you, then feel free to continue as you are. If you want things to last a little longer, then you might consider giving them some defenses...either some form of combat luck, or some armor (samurai did wear armor into battle...an impromptu duel maybe not so much...).

 

Of course, all the suggestions about avoiding being hit altogether are something to keep in mind too....