Holy Susceptibilities: God and Champions

[MitchellS]

Re: Holy Susceptibilities: God and Champions

 

To become such a significant part of humanity's collective unconscious that you begin to function as an independent' date=' sentient entity -- well, let's just say that I can't imagine it *NOT* taking more than one mortal lifetime.[/quote']

I try not to put timeframes on such things. There could be a quantity calculation involved in reference to a number of worshippers to time to form a god but I really don't think it matters. If in the context of the story all of Gotham City begins worshipping Batman then it makes sense that some benefit can be gained from it for the character within a reasonable time limit. But you are talking about an event which, as far as I know, has never taken place or been suggested within the comic books. If after 20 years of worship Saint Batman can blind evildoers with a simple scowl and turn vampires to dust it works for me.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Holy Susceptibilities: God and Champions

 

Disclaimer: I only have created one complete game world; I am currently running that game... and these answers relate to that one. I have also worked as a GM within other's settings; in those cases, I'd go with the crtor's views.

 

1) I'd definately allow susceptability to Holy... see later for a twist.

2) I'd allow "Holy" sfx... it would also be tacked on to attacks by those of truly devout faith, whatever their faith. I'd actually extend this to atheism, as it makes stylistic sense for Demons to be repelled by true, _powerful_ disbelief.

3) I wouldn't allow Holy as a random add on; however, thigns like "Sunlight Beam", etc. could trigger their _other_ weaknesses (if you can figure out what it is).

4) Moot, yeah. If i can't be triggered, though, it seems... odd... for to be noted, let alone give points.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Holy Susceptibilities: God and Champions

 

I try not to put timeframes on such things. There could be a quantity calculation involved in reference to a number of worshippers to time to form a god but I really don't think it matters. If in the context of the story all of Gotham City begins worshipping Batman then it makes sense that some benefit can be gained from it for the character within a reasonable time limit. But you are talking about an event which' date=' as far as I know, has never taken place or been suggested within the comic books. If after 20 years of worship Saint Batman can blind evildoers with a simple scowl and turn vampires to dust it works for me. [/quote']

 

Since my comments have set of a tangent discussion...

 

1) I don't run the CU as published, but steal... er leverage liberally from it.

 

2) In my campaing, the Gods of many pantheons do exist. I have explored this in many ways, but the main issue is pertinent to what I stated above.

 

3) One charcter, Locke, is the world's most powerful Psi. He has died and been reborn a number of times, each time coming back more powerful. He has faced his father (Malachite possessed by the spirit of the dead Menton) and defeated him. He has touched millions with his mind, on a conscious and unconscious level.

 

4) In my world, as the heroes discovered during the campaign... all the original gods were human/superhumans, once. They were early metahumans who grew so powerful that they crossed something I call "The Threshold." This is a metaphysical term that indicates when a metahuman begins to gain such attention from people... worship in many cases... that this becomes a power source they can tap into. (Think open ended VPP limited by SFX of the character.) Each character, if they choose to, can cross the threshold (if, in the story, there is reason/power/worship/attention that would allow this) Locke, because of events over the past decade and his type of powers (able to tap right into the psyche of people) approached this Threshold much faster than anyone else. Gods showed up, all with advice, some trying to dissuade him, others to push him over the edge. The point being that going over the Threshold means becoming "something else" and if done suddenly without control, can be massively destructive. (The supposed meteor in the Yucatan that killed the dinosaurs? That was a primal superbeing going over. The destruction of Thera that presaged the great floods... again, a threshold crossing that was uncontrolled.)

 

So... anyway... I was speaking from the POV of my campaign, where I introduced this concept. (One of the coolest scenes was Locke reaching out to touch every mind on the planet, with the choice "Do it, or not" as a way of removing all "gods" from the face of the earth (while confronted with Set returned) and decided not to do it. Another was Thermal having been devoured by Tezcatlipoca, having a metaphysical conversation with the Leopard Sun god where he spoke to the man Tezcatlipoca used to be, and gave him reason to renounce godhood.)

 

This was a very metaphysical ending to a huge campaign (with a good old Heroes vs. the mad God Set battle to end all battles) but it is the basis of where I'm coming from, here.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Holy Susceptibilities: God and Champions

 

Neat stuff there, Neil.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Holy Susceptibilities: God and Champions

 

The 'Full Variable Special Effects' (+1/2) is a little wonky sometimes; I'm with ... I forgot who it was. Von D-Man? above, who said that it's still got to make some sense in the context of who uses it ("I don't care if it's a magic power, magic can't make a radiation blast").

 

Now, here's the million dollar question ... suppose somebody blessed Riptide ...

[zornwil]

Re: Holy Susceptibilities: God and Champions

 

Just to add on the poll, yes, I would, as with others would want to be clear on what constitutes "holy" or such, although if the player didn't want to define that I would and let the player know, to the extent it makes sense for the PC/world to know that.

[Guest rbezold]

Re: Holy Susceptibilities: God and Champions

 

For the record? No, no, no, and no. I have in the past played with religiously diverse groups and this is a theological minefield I absolutely refuse to set foot on. I personally am not offended when it happens in someone else's game, but when I'm the GM I won't touch it. I just won't.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Holy Susceptibilities: God and Champions

 

In my own campaigns I've allowed Vulnerabilities and Susceptibilities to "Holy" attacks or environments, which I define as: any area, being or artifact which is or is empowered by/consecrated to a powerful supernatural entity of essentially benevolent nature, with a sizeable and long-standing body of worshippers, past or present. This can include deities from modern living religions (Jehovah, Vishnu, Ahura Mazda) or from mythologies of the past (Horus, Athena, Thor).

 

Regarding the "Variable SFX" issue, I think that I would want all the variations to be "holy" as part of the concept of the character or any artifact he may use, e.g. "holy water," "divine fire," "light of truth" etc. In other words, any of the character's attacks would have to count as "holy" - it just doesn't strike me as the sort of thing one can normally switch to and from.

[paigeoliver]

Re: Holy Susceptibilities: God and Champions

 

Coming from a conservative christian environment I can add a slight twist to the concept of holy ground.

 

Want to throw your player's and villians a real twist, then don't assume that every church, or every altar, or every mosque is holy ground. There is a concept known as "playing church" which is said to be more common than actual worship, and many many churches are full of people doing nothing but "playing church". They come, they see people, they talk a good game, but that is as far as it goes.

 

So the heroes lure the big bad to the giant cathedral, only to have him smile and attack unaffected because it isn't holy ground.

 

Then watch that same villian later get trounced on a street corner that was used by a truly devout street preacher for decades.

 

Much like the idea that the cross only affects the vampire if you believe, the ground is only holy if people are truly worshipping there.

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Holy Susceptibilities: God and Champions

 

Then watch that same villian later get trounced on a street corner that was used by a truly devout street preacher for decades.

 

Much like the idea that the cross only affects the vampire if you believe, the ground is only holy if people are truly worshipping there.

 

 

The utterly insane homeless man holding back vampires with a dented hubcap, because he earnestly believes its a holy icon?

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Holy Susceptibilities: God and Champions

 

The utterly insane homeless man holding back vampires with a dented hubcap' date=' because he earnestly believes its a holy icon?[/quote']

This pretty much sums up what my problem with WW's conception of True Faith. I could never buy that belief alone had power, there had to be something there for that belief to have true power (in an rpg sense.)

 

TB

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Holy Susceptibilities: God and Champions

 

This pretty much sums up what my problem with WW's conception of True Faith. I could never buy that belief alone had power' date=' there had to be something [i']there[/i] for that belief to have true power (in an rpg sense.)

 

But what if the "something there" you are looking for is the belief itself?

[Lupus]

Re: Holy Susceptibilities: God and Champions

 

Coming from a conservative christian environment I can add a slight twist to the concept of holy ground.

 

Want to throw your player's and villians a real twist, then don't assume that every church, or every altar, or every mosque is holy ground. There is a concept known as "playing church" which is said to be more common than actual worship, and many many churches are full of people doing nothing but "playing church". They come, they see people, they talk a good game, but that is as far as it goes.

 

So the heroes lure the big bad to the giant cathedral, only to have him smile and attack unaffected because it isn't holy ground.

 

Then watch that same villian later get trounced on a street corner that was used by a truly devout street preacher for decades.

 

Much like the idea that the cross only affects the vampire if you believe, the ground is only holy if people are truly worshipping there.

I'd go with this as well. Rituals don't have any power in and of themselves - it's the power they tap into that matters. In this case, the power of genuine worship.

[Lupus]

Re: Holy Susceptibilities: God and Champions

 

The way I do it:

 

Holy power is allowed. As is Unholy power. They're not entirely to do with deities, however. It's more about tapping into primal 'good' and 'evil' in the world. 'Positive' and 'negative' energies, if you prefer. These energies (mystic forces, really) can be wielded by... well, usually by magic. By those who worship a deity (such as God), or just believe in goodness or evil very strongly.

 

There's another thing, which is deific power. This isn't necessarily either Holy or Unholy. The Greek or Norse pantheon don't have Holy power, they have Deific power. Bacchus ain't gonna be projecting any kind of shining light of Good... but he will slam things like only a God can.

 

I'd make exceptions for particular god. Horus-Re (from Chuckg's examples) would probably qualify for Holy power in my games. Zeus and his thunderbolts? Possibly, according to my conception of Zeus. Possibly just because he's SO powerful that he can wield the Holy power just 'cause. Athena, on the other hand, would prolly be Holy all on her own.

 

As for Demons: most of them would be vulnerable both to Holy and Deific power. Someone like Horus-Re or Athena, personifying both powersets, would char demons like nothin' else.

 

In short, yeah, I allow Holy as a special effect. It requires particular things to achieve, though, briefly gone into above. You can't get it through technology. I do allow things like holy water to be used by others, though it's stronger when used by those of faith - faith in God, or goodness, or something of consequence (not simply Belief). Holy water does, however, have to be blessed by someone of TRUE faith, not simply one who does the right rituals. It also has to be handled like a holy object. You can't have a watercannon-o-holy-water, because that's not handling it with the proper respect. If you don't treat it like holy water (proper containers, proper care, ets), it simply isn't holy water any more.

 

Um... that's about it from me.

[Kristopher]

Re: Holy Susceptibilities: God and Champions

 

Coming from a conservative christian environment I can add a slight twist to the concept of holy ground.

 

Want to throw your player's and villians a real twist, then don't assume that every church, or every altar, or every mosque is holy ground. There is a concept known as "playing church" which is said to be more common than actual worship, and many many churches are full of people doing nothing but "playing church". They come, they see people, they talk a good game, but that is as far as it goes.

 

So the heroes lure the big bad to the giant cathedral, only to have him smile and attack unaffected because it isn't holy ground.

 

Then watch that same villian later get trounced on a street corner that was used by a truly devout street preacher for decades.

 

Much like the idea that the cross only affects the vampire if you believe, the ground is only holy if people are truly worshipping there.

 

One of my favorite* moments in discussing religion is the inevitable comment that someone will make about other people's faith being inadequate.

 

* to be read with sarcasm

[Blue]

Re: Holy Susceptibilities: God and Champions

 

Absolutely I allow them. In fact the Infinitum and the Black Pope from my previous storyline all had some sort of susceptibility or vulnerability (though which and how much varied from character to character).

 

A PC has a background that his powers were granted to him by RA, I'd stretch that to allow it as "holy", to some degree when mitigating such combat situations. One character had a weapon of indeterminent origin (she's an amnesiac) so I actually made it a religious artifiact (one of a pair); she was surprised to find herself doing extra damage with it to some individuals.

 

Generally from an origin you can tell whether someone's powers can be lumped into certain special effects groups without noting it all up front. It's what GM's do.

[zornwil]

Re: Holy Susceptibilities: God and Champions

 

I would add that I think the easiest and generally best path is to ensure the player's sense of "holy" is used, so long as it's balanced. If holy water means "blessed by a priest", then I wouldn't surprise the player by saying, "Well, that priest, even though a legit priest, was a bad man so this doesn't count," unless that is in the player's concept. As a surprise, these things bear too much on religious opinions and, again unless unbalanced, I think unquestioningly using the player's definition eliminates arguments. If the GM thinks the player's definition is unbalanced, that can be addressed directly before gameplay.

[Whitewings]

Re: Holy Susceptibilities: God and Champions

 

Here's a question for you: Which of the following characters would you consider to be "holy" (or able to access "holy" power) for purposes of Vulnerablities and Susceptiblitites?

 

Superman

Wonder Woman

Snowbird (Byrne version)

Captain Marvel (DC)

Thor (mainline MU)

Brother Voodoo

Silver Surfer

Dr. Strange

[OddHat]

Re: Holy Susceptibilities: God and Champions

 

Here's a question for you: Which of the following characters would you consider to be "holy" (or able to access "holy" power) for purposes of Vulnerablities and Susceptiblitites?

 

Superman

Wonder Woman

Snowbird (Byrne version)

Captain Marvel (DC)

Thor (mainline MU)

Brother Voodoo

Silver Surfer

Dr. Strange

 

Just for my own campaigns:

 

Superman - Nope. Solar Energy powers.

Wonder Woman - Yes. Divine magic powers.

Snowbird (Byrne version) - Dunno, never read the character.

Captain Marvel (DC) - Yes. Divine magic powers.

Thor (mainline MU) - Yes. Divine Magic powers.

Brother Voodoo - Dunno, never read the character.

Silver Surfer - Nope. Cosmic energy powers.

Dr. Strange - Nope, but he could get loans of holy power from various gods.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Holy Susceptibilities: God and Champions

 

Here's a question for you: Which of the following characters would you consider to be "holy" (or able to access "holy" power) for purposes of Vulnerablities and Susceptiblitites?

 

Superman

Wonder Woman

Snowbird (Byrne version)

Captain Marvel (DC)

Thor (mainline MU)

Brother Voodoo

Silver Surfer

Dr. Strange

 

For purposes of my definition of "holy" (as per my previous post):

 

Superman: No. His power is not supernatural, he has no significant body of true worshippers, and he himself would never think of his abilities in those terms.

 

Wonder Woman: Debatable, in terms of her basic physical combat abilities. Her golden lasso, forged from the Girdle of Gaea, definitely.

 

Snowbird: Yes. Byrne defined her as a demigoddess, daughter of Nelvana.

 

Captain Marvel: Probably. His power is definitely supernatural, and at least some of the entities he draws his power from would qualify as benevolent gods.

 

Thor: Yes. He is a true god, as well as a champion and hero (especially the Marvel version).

 

Brother Voodoo: Debatable. He is a houngan (voodoo priest), but some of the magical powers he displays don't seem to derive from the loa spirits, but from his brother's spirit sharing his body. I might adjudicate that case-by-case.

 

Silver Surfer: No. Even in his original incarnation, in which he was depicted as a saintly person, his nature and powers are of an entirely different order.

 

Dr. Strange: Possibly, depending on the nature of the supernatural entities he calls upon to power his spells. For example, the light from the Eye of Agamotto has often been depicted as being harmful to demonic creatures.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Holy Susceptibilities: God and Champions

 

This pretty much sums up what my problem with WW's conception of True Faith. I could never buy that belief alone had power' date=' there had to be something [i']there[/i] for that belief to have true power (in an rpg sense.)

 

TB

 

Well, in that case, I'd have to outright ban 'holy'. 'cause I refuse to say "God X exists/does not exist", even in a game world. (Exceptions made for "human-like" gods - see Thor for details).

 

I prefer to think of my demons as being able to be repelled by human faith - it makes them tied to _us_, whatever we choose to believe.

 

Oh, and it ties in better with my own beliefs that way.

[alexraccoon]

Re: Holy Susceptibilities: God and Champions

 

to make something holy requires the intercession of the divine after some form of prayer/blessing and in order to reach the divine requires true heartfealt faith. as for the use of holy objects such as crosses etc remember the scenes from frightnight whereupon Peter Vincent fearless vampire hunter is taunted that he has to have faith. In addition to that it must also be said that evidence such as a demon etc puts forth proof that there must be a god as the devil is a cast down angel and if you're going toe to toe with him then there must exist an opportunity to call upon god if you come to realise that god exists..

 

 

Also whilst not within hero but in a more freeform set of campaigns, we always allowed that magic was an application of the unconscious through ritual focus, we always allowed that the ability to keep nasties at bay through a persons use of a holy item is down to a form of psionic forcefield. It is therefore possible for the hypothosised insane man to hold a vampire at bay using a hubcap if he believes. In my book the strongest forces are love, faith and hope

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Holy Susceptibilities: God and Champions

 

But what if the "something there" you are looking for is the belief itself?

Then mechanically it should have worked no different than any other mage's attempt at altering reality by force of will over Reality, and it should have suffered paradox backlash like any other exercise of magic. (I'm refering to WW here only)

[Lupus]

Re: Holy Susceptibilities: God and Champions

 

Well, in that case, I'd have to outright ban 'holy'. 'cause I refuse to say "God X exists/does not exist", even in a game world. (Exceptions made for "human-like" gods - see Thor for details).

 

I prefer to think of my demons as being able to be repelled by human faith - it makes them tied to _us_, whatever we choose to believe.

 

Oh, and it ties in better with my own beliefs that way.

How about a middle ground? Belief is enough, but not one person's beliefs. It has to be something that enough people believe about, all at once, very strongly, even if only subconsciously. Christian faith counts. Islam counts. Secular humanism may count, depending on whether you actually believe strongly enough that your faith will HELP you. I dunno, maybe even faith in 'vampires are evil and will be repelled by my human strength and the spirit of our species' may count. But single insane beliefs won't.

 

That tends to be what I go for. I find it a good compromise.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Holy Susceptibilities: God and Champions

 

How about a middle ground? Belief is enough, but not one person's beliefs. It has to be something that enough people believe about, all at once, very strongly, even if only subconsciously. Christian faith counts. Islam counts. Secular humanism may count, depending on whether you actually believe strongly enough that your faith will HELP you. I dunno, maybe even faith in 'vampires are evil and will be repelled by my human strength and the spirit of our species' may count. But single insane beliefs won't.

 

That tends to be what I go for. I find it a good compromise.

 

No two people have the exact same faith. Even within the same church beliefs vary.

 

And I don't want to give legitimacy to 'organised religion' only. It's your own force of will that achieves it, because you believe. If that crazy man truly believes his hubcap is divine... he could be right.

 

IMG, everyone is at least touched by magic or psionics (for most people, both), so it's not like he doesn't have _power_ in and of himself...