Something Star Hero needs, but hasn't.

[DrTemp]

Ever since Traveller, SF roleplayers like to do one thing: "Build Starships". (Of course, it's not only starships, but any kind of vehicle, but for ease of discussion, I'll simply call them all "ships").

 

Thing is, you cannot do that with Star Hero.

 

Oh, yes, you can write down the desired attributes of a ship you have in mind, and then assign a point cost according to the Hero system rules. But that is not what "building ships for your game" is about.

 

Especially in SF gaming, the engineering limitations of the technology available is a rather important aspect of the background. You want to know whether it is possible to build a Terran Empire dreadnought with 20 g of accelleration, ot what the maximum level is, engineering-wise. What are the limiting factors? Engine mass, pilot acc tolerance, available fuel? Some players take solitary fun in simply exploring what the "ultimate vessel" would be like- just what kind of ship is possible in the game universe?

 

Many SF games, from the old Traveller on, had "systems" to map these engineering limits: A given drive weighs X tons per ton of thrust, consumes Y tons of fuel per second for that and so on. Star Hero and its two settings, Alien Wars and Terran Empire have no such thing.

 

Why?

[John T]

Re: Something Star Hero needs, but hasn't.

 

Probably because Hero is more into the system-based nuts and bolts, and traditionally leaves the setting-based nuts and bolts to the tastes of the individual GM.

 

Games like Traveler, Star Wars and Star Trek have extensive campaign settings hardwired into them, and thus already have their techological base in place. Hero, while it does have specific campaign settings, is a more generic system, with books that enhance and define the system as a whole.

 

FWIW

John T

[JMcL63]

Re: Something Star Hero needs, but hasn't.

 

Probably because Hero is more into the system-based nuts and bolts, and traditionally leaves the setting-based nuts and bolts to the tastes of the individual GM.

 

Games like Traveler, Star Wars and Star Trek have extensive campaign settings hardwired into them, and thus already have their techological base in place. Hero, while it does have specific campaign settings, is a more generic system, with books that enhance and define the system as a whole.

 

FWIW

John T

I think you are missing the point here John T. DrTemp's original post refers to DoJ's 2 Star HERO background books- Alien Wars and Terran Empire- both of which we are told have no setting-specific starship design templates. I have neither of these books myself, nor any of the Vehicle or other equipment sourcebooks that might cover this sort of material, but I do think that DrTemp has a fair point. Vehicle design is hard work in HERO (harder than anything else IMO), and a modular/template-based subsystem for integrating tech levels and similar stuff into a quick and easy starship design system would indeed be a boon I reckon. That's about it I guess.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Something Star Hero needs, but hasn't.

 

I don't have Alien Wars or Terran Empire either. I wonder if the ship designs are consistent enough to reverse engineer a design system. This might be a good DH article if someone could do it.

 

For homebrewed campaigns or campaigns based on established RPG settings, you could always swipe the design system from that game, or use a game's system that seems to fit your homebrew universe, and then convert the final product to Hero stats. This also has somewhat of an advantage in that most games' design systems assume that all civilizations use about the same technology. You don't get humans in sail-powered ships suddenly having to find a way to deal with hostile aliens with fusion rockets or reactionless drives, and you don't often get the strategic issues of one race with large ships using jump gates, and another with small ships with their own integral jumpdrive. By stealing from multiple sources, you can work this easily into a Hero campaign.

[Nyrath]

Re: Something Star Hero needs, but hasn't.

 

Many SF games, from the old Traveller on, had "systems" to map these engineering limits: A given drive weighs X tons per ton of thrust, consumes Y tons of fuel per second for that and so on. Star Hero and its two settings, Alien Wars and Terran Empire have no such thing.

 

Why?

Well, the general answer is that the Hero System is a meta-game, that is, it is an RPG game creation tool kit. If the game master wants such a starship construction rule set, they can create it themselves by crafting limitations on the various ship components. It would be reasonably easy to adapt a starship creation system from another RPG.

 

As to why there is no such system in Alien Wars and Terran Empire in specific, you will have to ask the powers that be for the real answer, but I would suspect it would be along the lines of "it would not have been an optimum allocation of our limited supplement writing time".

[GreyGuardian]

Re: Something Star Hero needs, but hasn't.

 

terran empires has a section on starship tech, tech levels, and the dates that specific bits and pieces become available as well as some charts.

 

I'm not sure that alien wars had something similar but I would expect it did.

[DrTemp]

Re: Something Star Hero needs, but hasn't.

 

I don't have Alien Wars or Terran Empire either. I wonder if the ship designs are consistent enough to reverse engineer a design system. This might be a good DH article if someone could do it.

 

Well, this is a funny thing about, for example, Alien Wars: While otherwise a remarkable work (and Terran Empire being even better), it turns out that if you reverse-engineer a Centauri-class battleship that way, you find out that using basic physics, it is simply impossible to build it- not because of the necessary rubber science involved, but because it has chemical rockets that can burn for a month and accelerate the ship at about 0.5 g... making that 100,000-tons-ship carrying about 250 *million* tons of reaction mass... a mistake that would have been easily avoided with a design system at hand.

 

I know that the Star Hero line does not sell too well, so it probably won't make sense for DoJ to add such a system to Star Hero, but I wonder if the lack of such a system is part of the reason for the relatively low sales.

[DrTemp]

Re: Something Star Hero needs, but hasn't.

 

terran empires has a section on starship tech, tech levels, and the dates that specific bits and pieces become available as well as some charts.

 

But those charts are, again, only lists of Hero System powers and their associated point costs. No engineering involved.

[John T]

Re: Something Star Hero needs, but hasn't.

 

I think you are missing the point here John T. DrTemp's original post refers to DoJ's 2 Star HERO background books- Alien Wars and Terran Empire- both of which we are told have no setting-specific starship design templates. I have neither of these books myself' date=' nor any of the Vehicle or other equipment sourcebooks that might cover this sort of material, but I do think that DrTemp has a fair point. Vehicle design is hard work in HERO (harder than anything else IMO), and a modular/template-based subsystem for integrating tech levels and similar stuff into a quick and easy starship design system would indeed be a boon I reckon. That's about it I guess. [/quote']

Nope, didn't miss his point. I am one of the people he refers to who like to crunch numbers for maximum device efficiency. Did it for Renegade Legion, even when no one wanted to play the game.

 

My own point was that the designers of the Hero system seem more likely to publish things that are viable for the whole system, rather than catering to one element of one setting, and vehicle design is pretty easy in Hero if you start with the desired stats and spend points 'til you get them; it's just not big on defining physics or resources associated with the process... because it leaves that to the GM to decide.

 

John T

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Something Star Hero needs, but hasn't.

 

This is sounding more and more like decent fodder for a DH article....

[Rapier]

Re: Something Star Hero needs, but hasn't.

 

it's just not big on defining physics or resources associated with the process... because it leaves that to the GM to decide.

I think I even remember Steve or someone commenting on it. How do you determine how much space/size/weight is required for a space folding engine that can accelerate a 1m MTon spacecraft to .3c while covering distance at a ration of 257:1?

 

Wabbida, you say? Exactly.

 

What if the above engine takes up 12 cubic hexes, weighs 3 MTons and requires a 15 gjoule powersource...as it is built on Rigel V.

 

But what about on Sysiphus VIII? They have MUCH better power generating technology. They can cram the same powersource into a much smaller space and the power requirements for the same spec engine are much lower.

 

But you know what? NONE of this has anything to do with the characters. Hero System isn't Car Wars. It's not Star Fleet Battles. It's a game about characters. So none of all of that above really makes any difference.

 

For the analogy: Are there rules that discuss how large the power pack must be to deliver 2d6 of RKA Laser power? No, because it doesn't matter. As far as the character is concerned, she has a laser blaster...and it does damage. Maybe there is another blaster that costs more, is smaller and does more damage. That's cool. She'll get that one. Does she care how the blaster was able to get more damage out of a smaller package? Not really...just as long as it cuts people up when you pull the trigger.

 

You want that kind of detail? You want to come up with something? Go ahead. I would imagine that TUV and the other vehicle book(s) will be invaluable. In fact, if you want to create that kind of detail, I would imagine there are tons of people around here that would love to help.

 

Just use creative license. This engine is 12 cubic hexes, that one is 10 cubic hexes. Especially with a universal setting, tech levels are going to be drastically different on each planet. There are no real hard and fast rules.

 

If you are looking for a start on quantifying starship equipment I would suggest maybe compare the AP cost. 1 cubic hex for every 10 AP. Maybe double the size for every -1 in limitations. The few times I've created a spaceship I've thrown a large room in the back of the ship with a bunch of consoles in the walls etc and called it "engine room." End of story.

 

Not sure if this came out snotty. If so, I apologise. I'm tending to columnise lately. This is what happens when you spend large portions of your day writing papers and opinions.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Something Star Hero needs, but hasn't.

 

The Ultimate Vehicle does go into a bit more detail on this subject, under "Equipment Mass And Volume" (p. 118). Essentially it asserts that as the default, the HERO rules don't make provision for mass or volume of equipment due to the variability of these factors from campaign to campaign. However, the section does offer a few suggestions for the GM to establish ratios of mass and volume of different types of systems based on their Active Points. It also suggests formulas for modifying those Active Point numbers based on the level of technology of the system. It doesn't go into a lot of detail, but it's a decent starting point for you own builds, and the formulas could be applied to existing ship builds if you wanted to make the effort.

 

BTW, Dr. Temp; I don't claim much engineering expertise, but the month-burning rocket you describe sounds a lot like the "Vasimr rocket" described in the sidebar on TUV p. 88. That text asserts that it's a real-world propulsion system being developed for future Mars missions, combining "the relatively high thrust of a thermal rocket with the efficiency of an ion drive." The stats for it in the sidebar give it 1 Continuing Fuel Charge of 1 Month's duration. I don't know how realistic that is, but it may be what the battleship you cite is based on.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Something Star Hero needs, but hasn't.

 

Many SF games, from the old Traveller on, had "systems" to map these engineering limits: A given drive weighs X tons per ton of thrust, consumes Y tons of fuel per second for that and so on. Star Hero and its two settings, Alien Wars and Terran Empire have no such thing.

 

Why?

 

The problem with these old Traveler games was the GM spend more time designing weapons, and ships than NPCs and plots. I have played in a few of those campaigns and they only last a few sessions. Design Addiction seems to take hold of the GM, they spend more and more time designing vehicles and less and less time building stories. In most of these campaigns, our ships were great but we had no place to go.

 

.

[Rapier]

Re: Something Star Hero needs, but hasn't.

 

The problem with these old Traveler games was the GM spend more time designing weapons, and ships than NPCs and plots. I have played in a few of those campaigns and they only last a few sessions. Design Addiction seems to take hold of the GM, they spend more and more time designing vehicles and less and less time building stories. In most of these campaigns, our ships were great but we had no place to go.

 

.

Now that I'm thinking about it, what we should all do is throw together a database. Have each person throw together some ship designs from a single system.

 

First determine some groundrules: BattleShips have between x and xx DEF, Size of xx etc. 'Course, this would require classification of ships first:

 

IntrerPlanetary Shuttle

IntraPlanetary Shuttle

Corvette

Cruister

Battleship

Destroyer

Dreadnaught

SuperDreadnaught

Carrier

 

It could be fun. 'Course it would also help if you had Star Hero and TUV.

[DrTemp]

Re: Something Star Hero needs, but hasn't.

 

Wabbida, you say? Exactly.

 

No.

 

Alien Wars, for example, wants to be rather hard SF on the sublight propulsion system question. The efficiency of a chemical or fusion rocket is not subject to arbitrary decision by the worldbuilder, but to known physics. If one wants to do Hard SF, one needs actual numbers. (There is only so much energy to be gained from converting Deuterium to Helium, so that is the maximum one can get out of a fusion rocket. It simply cannot be more, whatever the tech level is. For higher acceleration and burn endurance than the best imaginable (antimatter rockets) can provide, one needs rubber science.

 

{Warning. Numberchrunching example follows. If you are not interested in such things, move on to the next curly brackets}

 

For example, there is _no_ chemical rocket with an acceleration in the range of 0.1 g or above that can burn for a month. That is due to the exhaust velocities inolved, which are a function of the energy provided by fuel and oxidant. The best available chemical rockets use almost all of the energy provided, which allows for an exhaust velocity of perhaps 4500 meters/second.

 

To compute how much reaction mass we need for a given ship for a one-seconds-burn, we can use the simple formula:

 

shipsmass * velocitychangepersecond= reactionmassconsumptionpersecond * exhaustvelocity

 

For said Centauri class battleship, that is

 

100 000 tons * 5 m/s = reactionmassconsumptionpersecond * 4500 m/s

 

So

reactionmassconsumptionpersecond = 500 000/4500 tons

 

which is close to a hundred tons. For one second. A month has a _lot_ of seconds. (And one cannot simply multiply since the reaction mass for the last seconds has to be accelerated all the way until it is used, increasing the ship's initial mass and requiring a logarithmic equation for the actual computation.)

 

Even if one assumes that the exhaust velocity of Alien Wars rockets is much higher (which is actually not possible for a chemical rocket, simply because there is not more energy in that kind of propulsion system), there is no way a 100 000 tons ship can be in that range with its propulsion data if it uses chemical rockets.

 

{End of numberchrunching example}

 

In addition to physics being somewhat of genre relevance in SF, there is still the point that even with completely arbitrary rubber science systems, the numbers provide background information for the setting. If the best available FTL drive requires one ton of mass per ton moved with it, it is useless, since it can't even transport its own power source, and certainly not any payload. If interstellar empire A can build ships that carry one ton per kilogram of FTL drive and empire B only 500 kg, then empire A will dominate empire B (either economically or outright militarily).

 

In Alien Wars, the only real advantage the Xenovores seem to have, propulsion-wise, is that their dreadoughts are able to enter atmospheres- human ships are just as durable and just as agile as their Xenovore counterparts, even though the setting assumes that "the Xenovores are technologically superior", of which we'd see nothing in a space battle, given the stats of the available ships.

 

Don't misunderstand me- in the reality of play, these things are probably rather minor, and can be easily corrected if necessary. I really love the result of the author's work, it is a great SF setting. But it certainly lacks a design system.

[DrTemp]

Re: Something Star Hero needs, but hasn't.

 

The problem with these old Traveler games was the GM spend more time designing weapons, and ships than NPCs and plots.

 

Well, this is rather a problem of the GM involved, but I see what you mean- one can argue that the time consumption per usable campaign material output of such design systems is too high to be usefull.

 

This can easily be avoided by making a design system not too detailed. Skip things like the mass of the computer and sencsors system (being 50 or 100 kg) influencing the mass and performance of the 20 ton space superiority fighter- simply assume that all designed craft have a fair equipment aboard, all bought with the "2 to 3 tons for the cockpit". Modular design, so to speak. If designing a ship consists of only a few steps and takes no more than ten minutes, the output of usable campaign material increases rapidly...

 

But the value of such a design system is not only to give the GM a tool with which to provide background information for his or her campaign- it is also some kind of solitary play, which is simply fun for some people. (Many of those people also prefer rather rules-heavy game systems, such as you-know-which-one ). "Find out more about the setting by exploring its technological conditions". Providing such a systems deepens the fan's involvement with the game universe.

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Something Star Hero needs, but hasn't.

 

theres been a fair amount of work discussed on this subject over at the Star Hero Fandom site, I've already done a few conversions, and theres a converted hull size chart there

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Something Star Hero needs, but hasn't.

 

I have all the traveller ship construction systems, along with Space Opera and Space Master, and the construction rules from Silent Death and, both TUV and STK and the SH basic book

[Basil]

Re: Something Star Hero needs, but hasn't.

 

[snipping a lot, to get to the point I want to respond to]

{Warning. Numberchrunching example follows. If you are not interested in such things, move on to the next curly brackets}

 

For example, there is _no_ chemical rocket with an acceleration in the range of 0.1 g or above that can burn for a month. That is due to the exhaust velocities inolved, which are a function of the energy provided by fuel and oxidant. The best available chemical rockets use almost all of the energy provided, which allows for an exhaust velocity of perhaps 4500 meters/second.

 

To compute how much reaction mass we need for a given ship for a one-seconds-burn, we can use the simple formula:

 

shipsmass * velocitychangepersecond= reactionmassconsumptionpersecond * exhaustvelocity

 

For said Centauri class battleship, that is

 

100 000 tons * 5 m/s = reactionmassconsumptionpersecond * 4500 m/s

 

So

reactionmassconsumptionpersecond = 500 000/4500 tons

 

which is close to a hundred tons. For one second. A month has a _lot_ of seconds. (And one cannot simply multiply since the reaction mass for the last seconds has to be accelerated all the way until it is used, increasing the ship's initial mass and requiring a logarithmic equation for the actual computation.)

 

Even if one assumes that the exhaust velocity of Alien Wars rockets is much higher (which is actually not possible for a chemical rocket, simply because there is not more energy in that kind of propulsion system), there is no way a 100 000 tons ship can be in that range with its propulsion data if it uses chemical rockets.

 

{End of numberchrunching example}

 

Actually, it's a LOT worse than this. For any craft accelerated by "throwing stuff out the back" (BTW that "stuff" is known as propellent), there is a formula that relates the velocity the craft reaches, the velocity of the propellent, the total 'take off' mass, and the 'end' mass (that is, the mass of everything that isn't "thrown out the back").

 

Conventionally, the ratio (take-off mass/end mass) is called R.

Using e (the base of the natural logarithms), we take e^(end velocity/velocity of the propellant) = R.

 

Now, if the craft accelerates at 5 m/s for 30 days, it's final velocity is 12,960,000 m/s. Burning Be-H2 in O2 gives the fastest chemical propellent velocity (7050 m/s). Stick in the numbers, and you get R = 2 * 10^798. Which means, to get one picogram to do what the Centauri-class does, requires a f**king GAZILLION universes of propellent.

 

It is estimated that fusion rockets with have propellent velocities of 25,000 to 2,000,000 m/s. The slowest of those gives R=1.4 * 10^225, which is still impossible.

 

The fastest gives R=652; IOW the 100,000 ton craft needs over 65 million tons of propellent---the mass of a small asteroid. OTOH, if we assume the 100,000 tons is *starting mass*, then the end mass is about 153 tons; not useful at all.

 

And note: all of this is utterly fixed by the laws of physics. If you want a craft that isn't nearly-all propellent, you need a "rubber-(pseudo)-science" STL. Which would, it seems to me, work against the whole feel of Alien Wars.

 

Two technical notes: 12,960,000 is about 4.3% of the speed of light; although slight relativistic effects would occur at that speed, we can ignore it for this discussion (especially since relativistic rocket formulae are a pain).

Second, all the above facts & formulae come from The Starflight Handbook: A Pioneer's Guide to Interstellar Travel, by Eugene Mallove & Gregory Matloff. The authors are professors, and experts in rocketry. So yeah, this really is how rockets work.

[DrTemp]

Re: Something Star Hero needs, but hasn't.

 

Actually, it's a LOT worse than this.

[...]

Correct.

 

With chemical rockets, UES spaceships would merely remain in orbit, jumping from one system to another orbit-to-orbit and not maneuvering much at all. Using, for example, fusion rockets, would allow at least for some "free-fall" deep space operations, with short bursts at the begin and end of a projected interplanetary course.

 

But design mistakes like this one are just examples for the necessity of a well-grounded design system for the SF environment and genre. I restate: A vehicle design system for the Hero universe, maybe much like GURPS Vehicles (even though a bit simpler, I suggest...) is required- at least for the higher-tech Hero Universe timeperiods like Solar Hero, Alien Wars, Terran Empire and Galactic Federation.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Something Star Hero needs, but hasn't.

 

As an optional element, for SH gamers who want that level of realistic detail, I agree with you. Not everyone will be concerned about getting it that "right," as long as they have standards that work for them.

 

An article for Digital HERO is probably the most practical place for something like this for the time being.

[Bucky]

Re: Something Star Hero needs, but hasn't.

 

I think I even remember Steve or someone commenting on it. How do you determine how much space/size/weight is required for a space folding engine that can accelerate a 1m MTon spacecraft to .3c while covering distance at a ration of 257:1?

 

Wabbida, you say? Exactly.

 

Hmmm. First off, How do you fold space? Using EM as an analog [and recognizing the difference between EM and gravitation, specifically while EM is a vector force, gravitation is a tensor.] You could use something like constructive interference to create banded regions of, well, "compressed" and "expanded" space-time around the ship. Using Alcubierre's technique as well as later modifications, one could produce a warp drive that way.

 

Wabbida again?

 

The point is you need a working model of the physics first. From that, you can design the equipment and arrange it as needed. You can look at power requirements (Does the theory allow for something analogous to catalytic or resonance reactions? You don't need that much energy to produce the effect, you just needed it directed to the correct zone, or using the correct material) and energy densities as well as efficiencies. This is really what determines the space, size and weight of your starship engine.

 

Most of the tech for a starship is already available. Life support, hull materials, navigation, computers, a lot of this stuff is already here. What we don't have is the engine, the actual propulsive device. Once you have that, you know how much power/fuel it takes.

 

As "tech level" increases, equipment efficiency increases. Size, and weight decrease as does power and/or fuel requirements to produce the same effective speed. (This is true of almost all the components, not just the propulsion system.) Prices for new, state of the tech level, stuff may be more expensive, but lower tech items become less so. Or as Bucky Fuller once said, the entire direction of technology is to do more and more with less and less.

 

There may be also some key technologies or theoretical models that are applicable across a number of starship systems. For example, imagine being able to manipulate gravitation in an analogous way to EM. Not only will (might) gravitational technology allow you to create a warp drive. But also such things as pumps that are more efficient with greater capacities, higher flow rates. etc. Or note how in Star Trek, having transporters automatically gives you replicators.

 

So, for building a design system, you have to start off with a theoretical basis for the drive system. Once you know that theory, a lot of the other pieces are already built in the real world, or extrapolational (?) from real world technologies. The size, mass and weight, as well as power/fuel requirements fall out.

 

I spend waaaaaay too much time thinking about such stuff.

[Bucky]

Re: Something Star Hero needs, but hasn't.

 

There are really two issues here. I want to agree with DrTemp. That such a design system is necessary to avoid a breakdown in believablity, a rupture in that suspension of disbelief. And I want to put some thought into how that design system might work.

 

But the other posters are right in pointing out that Hero is based on the Characters, not the set or settings. Starships are sets, props, transportation systems. They provide Heros with abilities and possibly challenges, even something to fight. We may have a particular fondness for a particular prop, but that does not change the fact that it is, after all, a prop. Soemthing the Hero uses to accomplish a task.

 

Is a design system necessary? Well, that depends on how low your threshold of disbelief is. DrTemp provided a really good example of a broken ship, with chemical rockets that burned longer than they had fuel for. The simulationist in me would balk at that, and that would spoil my enjoyment of the game. But then, not everyone is like me, nor cares about such details. YMMV

 

(Okay, okay sentient ships are a whole other ball of soup.)

[shadowcat1313]

Re: Something Star Hero needs, but hasn't.

 

designing a construction system for Hero is going to be a lot more complex than with Traveller or GURPS, because there isnt one baseline technology to work from like in Traveller, and to a lesser extent GURPS. in Traveller you assume a jump drive using a lanthanum hull grid with liquid hydrogen fuel and a set maximum range. manuever capability is provided mostly with reactionless thruster plates.

 

do we establish a single base, or multiple base trees to extrapolate from?

with it really depending on the setting.

 

I understand the complete reluctance of the Hero folks to pin down anything on sizes/capacities etc... doesnt mean I am happy with it, but I can only suspend disbelief so far, I want something more concrete. which is my biggest disapointment with 5th edition Hero, I run Traveller and Hero both, but havent run a crossover game in years. without some kind of concrete system for size/mass etc you could easily build a fighter the size of an X-Wing or Colonial Viper and fit it with a Turbolaser and Star Destroyer shields.... nah that just doesnt quite work.

 

I am going to continue tinkering with my own ideas for making a system like this work, if folks want to see copies contact me off list, I would prefer not to ruffle too many feathers. I've already done a lot of work on some ideas that have been posted here and over at Star Hero Fandom.

[Rapier]

Re: Something Star Hero needs, but hasn't.

 

I just wanted to throw in this little tidbit.

 

We [as a society] know quite a bit about the universe. However, I think it would be a mistake to demand that all technology in your campaign have some kind of analogous relationship with current science and understanding.

 

600 years ago, everyone thought they knew quite a bit about the universe too...and they also thought the world was flat.