Eiditic Memory, Speed Reading and Cramming ?!?

[Hyper-Man]

Hi Everyone,

 

I know that Skills, Skill Enhancers and Talents don't often come into play in most games but this particular combination has always made me wonder since the combination of ALL 3 is never mentioned.

 

1. What if a character is born with the Talents: Eiditic Memory and Speed Reading and later learns the Skill: Cramming? FRED suggests that Eiditic Memory can provide the same or better effect (8- or 11-) than Cramming (8- with any one skill till end of adventure).
   
2. Would you just treat it as Cramming 8- usable twice or would you say the combination instead gives you Cramming 11- usable once?
   
3. What does Speed Reading actually give you by itself beyond the time saved? An INT roll to recall any fact from whatever you just read? How is this different from Cramming?
   

Inquiring Minds Want to Know !

 

HM

[TaxiMan]

Re: Eiditic Memory, Speed Reading and Cramming ?!?

 

Cool question!

 

If a character has all three, I'd say that

 

a) Speed Reading allows PC to Cram really fast

 

Eidetic Memory allows the PC to use Extra Time on a Crammed skill, simulating using Eidetic memory to recall pages then think about what it says to gain a bonus to the 8- roll

 

c) All three might let the PC Cram in-game if it makes dramatic sense blah blah blah (normally it has to be done between adventures, I think).

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Eiditic Memory, Speed Reading and Cramming ?!?

 

I've always figured that if a character with Eidetic Memory also has Cramming, then he logically shouldn't forget the Skills he crams for! So in other words, he should have to/get to spend XP from the adventure on buying an 8- version of whatever he Crammed for.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Eiditic Memory, Speed Reading and Cramming ?!?

 

I've always figured that if a character with Eidetic Memory also has Cramming' date=' then he logically shouldn't forget the Skills he crams for! So in other words, he should have to/get to spend XP from the adventure on buying an 8- version of whatever he Crammed for.[/quote']

EEK!

It sounds like you are almost punishing the player for spending 10 points. Plus, the description of Eiditic Memory in FRED mentions the combo with Speed Reading and suggests that it works in a virtually identical fashion to cramming for book-learnable material without spending XP (If no XP is spent, it still goes away at the end of the adventure though).

 

The way I understood Eiditic Memory to work in real life is that a person's Short Term Memory just has a much larger capacity than the average person. They can still forget things with time but what they can remember will contain enourmous amounts of detail compared to the norm of society. Sounds like a computer with a very large amount of RAM to Hard-Drive capacity ratio with the HD being represented by an INT roll for basic rembering of knowledge.

 

HM

[Edsel]

Re: Eiditic Memory, Speed Reading and Cramming ?!?

 

EEK!

It sounds like you are almost punishing the player for spending 10 points.

Perhaps the character could quickly read a book with a completely opposed viewpoint on the subject in question and thereby confuse himself back into a state of blissful ignorance and save the XP.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Eiditic Memory, Speed Reading and Cramming ?!?

 

Perhaps the character could quickly read a book with a completely opposed viewpoint on the subject in question and thereby confuse himself back into a state of blissful ignorance and save the XP.

I think that happens in the political threads of the NGD on a near daily basis!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Eiditic Memory, Speed Reading and Cramming ?!?

 

I wonder which, if any, of these abilities Zornwil has?

 

HM

[Edsel]

Re: Eiditic Memory, Speed Reading and Cramming ?!?

 

I think he has speedposting, based on his post count.

[Rapier]

Re: Eiditic Memory, Speed Reading and Cramming ?!?

 

I think he has speedposting' date=' based on his post count.[/quote']

Lightning Reflexes 30- (-1 Only to Post)

[Silbeg]

Re: Eiditic Memory, Speed Reading and Cramming ?!?

 

What if a character is born with the Talents: Eiditic Memory and Speed Reading and later learns the Skill: Cramming? FRED suggests that Eiditic Memory can provide the same or better effect (8- or 11-) than Cramming (8- with any one skill till end of adventure).

Would you just treat it as Cramming 8- usable twice or would you say the combination instead gives you Cramming 11- usable once?

I would handle it a little differently... I would not treat Eiditic Memory as cramming... if the player can adequate provide a reason why the character would remember something (a KS-type skill), they would be able to get a roll... however, having a KS paid for would still provide more insight into the subject.

 

Cramming can also be used for things that Eiditic Memory cannot... like gaining a temporary familiarity with a language, or other skill (say, he crams by reading an automotive repair manual, getting a crammed 8- Mechanics roll... the best E.Mem. would give is KS: Auto Repair (8-, whatever))

 

As for interaction with speed reading, there are several in game effects...

• Cramming can happen faster
  
• Filter through large stacks of paper to find information
  [*}Learn a skill faster, generally, that can be learned by reading (depends on how you allow XP to be spen
  

 

Eiditic Memory does have certain uses as well... especially when the character is processing what happened at an event... "Oh, wait, now that I think about it, the license plate on the getaway car was 856 KYJ, which I recall seeing parked in front of my realtor's office last week..."

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Eiditic Memory, Speed Reading and Cramming ?!?

 

EEK!

It sounds like you are almost punishing the player for spending 10 points.

It's more a matter of not being able to believably envision how a person could have Cramming and Eidetic Memory, and not have to buy every Skill they Cram for. I mean, Cramming is supposed to give you the Skill temporarily, after which time you forget it. But since you have Eidetic Memory, you don't forget it.

 

I don't mean to punish anyone... as a GM, I would probably encourage most characters to take either Cramming or Eidetic Memory... not both. But if you wanted a great rationale for having a character whose skill set just kept growing exponentially, comboing Cramming and Eidetic Memory would fit the bill.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Eiditic Memory, Speed Reading and Cramming ?!?

 

It's more a matter of not being able to believably envision how a person could have Cramming and Eidetic Memory' date=' and [i']not[/i] have to buy every Skill they Cram for. I mean, Cramming is supposed to give you the Skill temporarily, after which time you forget it. But since you have Eidetic Memory, you don't forget it.

 

I don't mean to punish anyone... as a GM, I would probably encourage most characters to take either Cramming or Eidetic Memory... not both. But if you wanted a great rationale for having a character whose skill set just kept growing exponentially, comboing Cramming and Eidetic Memory would fit the bill.

Actually, according to an article at http://www.memory-key.com/MemoryGuide/faq.htm

Is there such a thing as a photographic memory?

 

While one cannot completely discount the possibility of a photographic memory, since there have been some very rare individuals with truly extraordinary powers of memory, those examples of outstanding memory that have been studied have all turned out to be due to the use of powerful memory strategies.

 

The lesson we can draw from most examples of "photographic memory" is that there are truly effective memory strategies, and anyone who wants to put in the requisite time and energy can achieve such a powerful memory. However, the point that most so-called "memory trainers" don't make, is that to achieve such levels of mastery requires a great deal of practice. Moreover, their accomplishments are specific to the memory task they have practiced. That is, achieving a high level of skill at remembering names doesn't mean you'll be any better at remembering things you've read, or things you have to do.

 

Practicing a particular strategy leads to skill at that strategy, it doesn't lead to a "good memory". There is no such thing as a good memory, and no such thing as a bad one. You may be good at remembering some things, and poor at remembering others.

This seems to suggest to me that Cramming is just the learnable skill and that the HERO Talent Eidetic Memory is the 'savant' version. You are just born with it or not*. Cramming sounds like a mnemonic technique that is used to organize information to help remember it longer.

 

*Similar to the comparison of people who posses Perfect Pitch who can pick out a specific note without first hearing a reference pitch like middle C. I personally have pretty good relative pitch. I can tell if a melody is in tune as a pattern of notes (like Do Re Me) but I cannot tell what any indivual note is without external reference.

 

HM

[zornwil]

Re: Eiditic Memory, Speed Reading and Cramming ?!?

 

This is an interesting question, Hyper-man.

 

And as to some messages above, do you think I'm really going to reveal the source of my rabid posting!? Hah!

 

Seriously, though, eidetic memory can definitely be tricky on its own,, but particularly with speed reading, even without cramming - as in "But remember, I read all the books on France 3 sessions ago, so I should know anything asked about France!"

 

I'm breaking this down, not that you all can't do/haven't done this, but for my own analytical purposes:

 

Cramming essentially is short-term learning that's forgotten later.

 

Eidetic memory is the ability to recall specific items in vivid detail and 100% accurately.

 

Cramming allows for a generalization and the ability to do "some" things with a skill (most often knowledge) you otherwise would have bought.

 

Eidetic memory allows for specific recall of things you've committed to memory.

 

Speed reading allows either/both of these to be done simply more rapidly,so for the moment, for simplicity, let's throw that out.

 

I would argue that the inherent difference in cramming versus eidetic memory is that the first allows you to PERFORM based on a smattering of knowledge, it allows you to execute. The latter alows you to recall a detail, to know something, but more like simply having a knowledge, as opposed to using a language.

 

So in execution, that which you have crammed you can simply perform on the fly, whereas while eidetic memory allows you to recall facts, it doesn't mean you understand how to put them together or perform the greater task they beg. Therefore, in cramming a language, I can actually speak it on the fly, think on my feet, at least to a rudimentary degree. If I only have eidetic memory of language books and tapes, I can figure out what is being said and I can even pronounce back words from a book, but that's my limitation, I can't really do it fluidly, and I'm always struggling, even though my depth of knowledge is probably better than with cramming.

 

Still, a fine line for many things, but that's my story and I'm stciking to it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Eiditic Memory, Speed Reading and Cramming ?!?

 

thanks for the input Zornwil (on this and several other threads),

 

Regarding Eidetic Memory, how do you determine what information gets the 100% recall garantee?

 

example case:

 

• Average-Shopper-Girl goes on a last minute christmas gift buying binge but has to make perception checks to find what she's looking for in a store. If after going down every aisle she still has not found what she's looking for she has to go down some aisles multiple times with no garantee that she has not missed an important gift.
  
• Eidetic-Shopper-Girl also goes on a last minute christmas gift buying binge. She walks down every aisle of the store and then pauses to use her eidetic memory to locate the items she wants in a mental map of the store.
  

Does Eidetic-Shopper-Girl still have to make a perception roll during her walk?

 

• It's a tough call either way since to say she does begs the question of what is benefit is she getting over Average-Shopper-Girl. I think she still has to make a perception roll to find something in her mental image but can use extra time after she has left the store to organize her mental picture of its on the shelf inventory.
  
• To say she doesn't implies that she has perfect perception of everything in her sensory field of veiw/hearing after the fact which begs the question of how much time after the fact? This seems like too much benefit for the 5 points spent.
  

Another silly question by HM

[zornwil]

Re: Eiditic Memory, Speed Reading and Cramming ?!?

 

I'm okay with 5 points for "Always finds what she wants when shopping."

 

Seriously, though, Eidetic Memory is a funny thing, I agree, a player can under-leverage it or make it more like a 40 point power.

 

Generally, I thik ESG should just go directly to where the item was, she should be able to memorize the store layout. But let's note that the store can change its layout (and this I realize mainly because my wife gets so mad when Fred Meyer changes their layout, which they do around 3 months after she has it down pat), so ESG will go straight to...the wrong place, unless she catches a (normal, no bonus) PER roll on her way in that things have changed. Whereas ASG will probably notice right off (after all, she never has a special power and is more likely to want to stay attuned to the signs).

 

To take your point where it really is going, EM is hard when we start talking about character studies or big thick text books on subjects or arcane spells or the like. It's doubly complicated as EM is the standard method of creating recording devices, which of course are precise and entirely accurate, so players (mostly rightfully) presume their EM should work the same way and about anything they've paused to commit to memory.

 

I think the reality just boils down to "does the player try to abuse it?" If they don't , no issue, and move on. But if they do try to abuse it, I think the measures the GM can take (aside of course from the most obvious and desirable first choice, which is to discuss it and try to find a mutually agreeable way to limit the EM as it is only 5 points) include that INT is an inhibitor to how the EM can really be applied. Making an INT roll becomes necessary not so much to remember the detail from page 5 of the Physics book, but to remember that page 5 is related to the corollary on page 237 that vaguely references page 5. And also, it can be that INT is necessary to remember the true details, not just that "this information is on page 162 of Gray's Anatomy", i.e., you can declare that EM gives you the "keys" to where info is but that to really remember in detail you still have to reference back if your INT can't hack it (usually demerits and bonuses for how recent the EM was committed or just how arcane or detailed the info is).

 

Lemme see what 5ER says...it does indicate that EM does NOT mean that a character remembers everything perfectly or that facts aren't forgotten over time. Although it then points out that if a character can remember anything he remembers "exactly."

 

I do think part of EM is the PC being very conscious about "I am now committing this to EM."

[Basil]

Re: Eiditic Memory, Speed Reading and Cramming ?!?

 

Hi Everyone,

 

I know that Skills, Skill Enhancers and Talents don't often come into play in most games but this particular combination has always made me wonder since the combination of ALL 3 is never mentioned.

 

1. What if a character is born with the Talents: Eiditic Memory and Speed Reading and later learns the Skill: Cramming? FRED suggests that Eiditic Memory can provide the same or better effect (8- or 11-) than Cramming (8- with any one skill till end of adventure).

No, what 5th Ed. says is "A character may spend Experience Points to retain any information...as permanent KSs or SSs.... GMs may wish to limit characters to 8- or 11- rolls for any Skills learned primarily through Eidetic Memory" IOW, Cramming gives an 8-, Eidetic Memory doesn't give a roll at all, and KSs & SSs gained with the reason "I remember what I EMed really well shouldn't get more than base-line rolls.
 

Would you just treat it as Cramming 8- usable twice or would you say the combination instead gives you Cramming 11- usable once?
What does Speed Reading actually give you by itself beyond the time saved? An INT roll to recall any fact from whatever you just read? How is this different from Cramming?

Inquiring Minds Want to Know !

Spead Reading just makes Cramming or E-memorizing faster. Not better.

 

My reading is that EMem lets the character stick a bunch of "pictures", including pictures of pages, into his head. (I put "pictures" in quotation marks, as it could be sounds, smells, etc.) Cramming, OTOH, is actually learning some subject, though only at the basic level (and not for Combat Skills). If anyone has read "Small Gods" by Terry Pratchett, you'll remember Brother Brutha and his never-forgets-anything skill/curse. That is an extreme form of Eidetic Memory.

 

Someone with both Eidetic Memory and Cramming would, IMO, be doing two different (though related) things when using his abilities in play. He might be able to use his EM to recall a particular fact relevant to the task he was trying to do with the Skill he Crammed; in that case a situational bonus to the roll might be appropriate. However, if the question was whether he could do a particular action, then IMO the EMem is irrelevant.

 

YMMV

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Eiditic Memory, Speed Reading and Cramming ?!?

 

thanks guys.

 

HM