Six stats, take 2.

[Almafeta]

Just taking an old idea another step. This is more complex, but I like it, and I hope I can explain it.

 

First, to reduce the number of stats, and reduce their cost to 2/+1, like in my old idea.

 

* STR is 2/+1

* DEX: Remove Speed from the equation, make Speed start at 2 and be 20/+1, and DEX is reduced to 2/+1.

* INT/PRE: Combined into one stat, Int, at 2/+1.

* BOD, CON, EGO: Stay the same.

* COM: Dropped.

 

Then, to reduce their 'resolution': make one pip of a stat under this system be worth 2.5 pips over the normal system -- that is, close to the value for CV/ECV, and an even multiple of the skill base value. So, a base stat of 10 in normal HERO becomes 4 in this sytem.

 

Since every stat costs 2 points, and every pip in this system is worth 2.5 under the normal system, that means +1 to a stat costs 2 x 2.5 = 5 points. (The same as +1 DC, but that's accidental.) So, you have six stats, STR, DEX, CON, BOD, INT, EGO, that start at 4; +-1 to a stat is +-5 points.

 

Finally, to change the skill system to work with the new scale. Combat and skills both work like so: (AV/Skill) + 3d6 verus (DV + 10)/Difficulty. One of the problems I see with the HERO system is that, for a system that's supposed to be scaled and not have absolutes, anyone can have an absolute skill for ~20 points; no automatic failure rules, so if you buy an 18-, you can't lose. With Skill+Dice v Difficulty, you don't have this automatic success problem; difficulty scales with compence. Skills are bought like before, but instead of being based on a formula, they're based directly on the stat. Unskilled rolls are at -8, a Familiarity is at -4, and everything else is Stat Plus X.

 

However, there are some problems with this setup:

 

* Problems with body points, and minor problems with PD/ED. You just can't get an average value of 10 from an average value of 4 with any simple math.

* Perception is 5 points/+1. However, under this new system, so would be INT, which it is based on...

* The influence of stats on skill rolls is doubled. This might not be a problem since the 'target number' would also be doubling in the same ratio as the stat.

 

Just thinking out loud. Maybe I'll write more cohesively after sleep.

[Reneshat]

Re: Six stats, take 2.

 

Why would you want to do all that when the current system works just fine?

[Kristopher]

Re: Six stats, take 2.

 

RE: The Six Stats...

 

No.

[proditor]

Re: Six stats, take 2.

 

I gotta agree, I'm not a fan. My main issue is combining PRE and INT as I just can't see that one at all. Heck, I know tons of people RL with one of those two high and the other almost unfunctionably low.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Six stats, take 2.

 

Biggest problems I see are having to backtrack to get the 5/3 divisors that are the foundation of the current system.

 

Looks very GURPY too.

 

HM

[Katherine]

Re: Six stats, take 2.

 

Just taking an old idea another step. This is more complex, but I like it, and I hope I can explain it.

 

First, to reduce the number of stats, and reduce their cost to 2/+1, like in my old idea.

 

* STR is 2/+1

* DEX: Remove Speed from the equation, make Speed start at 2 and be 20/+1, and DEX is reduced to 2/+1.

* INT/PRE: Combined into one stat, Int, at 2/+1.

* BOD, CON, EGO: Stay the same.

* COM: Dropped.

 

Strength: I'm new here, don't wanna get into the great Strength debate

 

Dex: Why drop Speed from Dexterity?

 

Don't like combining Intelligence and Presence. The two stats aren't linked either in "Real Life" or the source material (Action oriented fiction). Hero, IMO, needs one or two more "social" attributes not less.

 

I like Com. I think it should have more game value though. Currently it almost worthless.

[Netzilla]

Re: Six stats, take 2.

 

My first question is: what is the purpose of this rule change? Is there a problem it is attempting to solve?

 

Other questions would depend upon the answer to this one.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Six stats, take 2.

 

Hmmm...the big case against it is merging PRE and INT. Why not separate these into two again.

 

To keep 6 stats, we'll drop BOD and just use something else to track character life force. Let's call that "hit points".

 

Let's also rename EGO to be "Wisdom" and PRE to be "Charisma".

 

A few more changes and we could have a brand-new, original gaming system here - or am I missing something

[MitchellS]

Re: Six stats, take 2.

 

Hmmm...the big case against it is merging PRE and INT. Why not separate these into two again.

 

To keep 6 stats, we'll drop BOD and just use something else to track character life force. Let's call that "hit points".

 

Let's also rename EGO to be "Wisdom" and PRE to be "Charisma".

 

A few more changes and we could have a brand-new, original gaming system here - or am I missing something

Yep. Might as well play d20 then. If that's his thing then M&M will be more to his liking.

[Rapier]

Re: Six stats, take 2.

 

I just don't see the point at all.

 

Why are you doing this? Is something broken? Does something not work the way you think it should? Plus, it seems that you have left off all the figured characteristics. You are also neglecting the value of certain characteristics (PRE, for example).

 

I will give you that COM is a little swishy. I've, at time, abolished COM entirely and replaced it with MysticDef or something else (or just left it out entirely). COM is the appendix of Hero, but PRE has definite uses within the game and has nothing, at all to do with intelligence.

 

A lion has a very large presence. If it walks into your bedroom and roars (PRE attack of 6d6 or 30 PRE), I would be very surprised if when this wakes you out of a sound sleep you don't wet the bed. By the same token, I don't know of any lions with a PhD (a 30 INT in your example).

 

You should put a halt to the Characteristic Retirement Society for a bit and go back to the basics. Lay it all out for us. What started this thought? Why bother? What's broken? What doesn't work as well as it should? I would wager that there is something else you could/should be doing to your Hero games that would fix the problem better, easier, simpler and more evenly than hacking out base blocks of the Hero foundation.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Six stats, take 2.

 

I will give you that COM is a little swishy. I've' date=' at time, abolished COM entirely and replaced it with MysticDef or something else (or just left it out entirely). COM is the appendix of Hero[/quote']

 

I use COM rolls as complimentary to interaction skills where attractiveness could sway the result. If that were simply added to the rules, COM would serve a purpose which should justify its cost.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Six stats, take 2.

 

I happen to like COM as a characteristic. I do wish it had more direct game effect, but it works even as a supplemental roll to various social Skills such as Seduction or Persuasion. In reality people tend to be nicer to good looking persons even if they're not of the opposite sex. That may not be fair, but it's real. Perhaps we'll see additional rules for COM in future editions or supplements, but even as is it's not useless unless you play it that way. It may not be as useful as any other stat, but that's why it costs less than any other stat.

 

If COM is so pointless, why do so few players sell it back on their PCs? I've never run a PC with a 10 COM; even my brick had a 12 COM, my supermodel/ninja had an 18, and my current character has a 20 COM (Cute as a button!). Cyberknight's wife Kathy Ireland has a 24 COM. Only 3 of 8 PCs on our team have a 10 COM; the male team leader has a 15.

[Mark Taylor]

Re: Six stats, take 2.

 

I use COM rolls as complimentary to interaction skills where attractiveness could sway the result. If that were simply added to the rules' date=' COM would serve a purpose which should justify its cost.[/quote']

 

It is in the rules, at least as a suggestion. 5E page 23, under the heading COM Rolls: "COM Rolls are almost unheard of. However, in some instances you can use them as Complementary Rolls to some Interaction Skills."

[Almafeta]

Re: Six stats, take 2.

 

Hmmm...the big case against it is merging PRE and INT. Why not separate these into two again.

 

To keep 6 stats, we'll drop BOD and just use something else to track character life force. Let's call that "hit points".

 

Let's also rename EGO to be "Wisdom" and PRE to be "Charisma".

 

A few more changes and we could have a brand-new, original gaming system here - or am I missing something

 

Are you calling me an Action! player?

[Rapier]

Re: Six stats, take 2.

 

Are you calling me an Action! player?

If the Foo shits....

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Six stats, take 2.

 

Are you calling me an Action! player?

 

I have to side with those who have commented that they'd like to see a description of the perceived "problem" that this is the "solution" for. In other words, what's broken and needs to be fixed?

[proditor]

Re: Six stats, take 2.

 

I have to side with the "Show me why" group as well. In addition to my personal belief that you are working from a flawed premise on some of the changes, mainly the INT/PRE thing, I also just don't understand why we need less stats. Let me take an example. World of Darkness through 3rd ed. ( I haven't looked at 4th yet). 9 stats. 9. And even then I know a lot of players who felt that there was "Something missing". I'd argue that D&D has even more stats because sure, you only have 6 characteristics, but that and a buck fifty might get you a coffee. You also need to know Hit Points, Saving Throws, BAB to be able to answer simple character questions. So even with D&D, we're really up to something like 11 or so stats that we need to know most of the time. And again, I know folk who think that's too few for some instances. d20, like say Starwars, you also need your Vitality, though since wounds is in fact based on a stat, that evens out...unless you use the force, we're now up to 12 stats.

 

My point is that less is not always better, nor is it even desirable or applicable. Just because it is not a characteristic does not mean it is not a stat that needs to be known to run your PC. The major difference here is that most of the info you need on a HERO sheet can be gained from those stats without you looking elsewhere.