Blocking and deflecting

[Sean Waters]

Howdy, folks. Question for you....

 

You can not use missile deflection for hth attacks: why?

 

Recent situation came up where The Scarab was using his shield to deflect some bullets and a villain half moves up later that phase and hits him with a club. The Scarab wants to deflect this too but the rules say no.

 

I let the character get away with it at the same penalty as if it had been another missile deflect, but wouldn't it make sense to have a 5 point adder to the power that lets you deflect hth attacks too?

 

It just makes no sense to me that, if you can get the shield in the way of a bullet you can't then get it in the way of a club...

[Trebuchet]

Re: Blocking and deflecting

 

Howdy, folks. Question for you....

 

You can not use missile deflection for hth attacks: why?

 

Recent situation came up where The Scarab was using his shield to deflect some bullets and a villain half moves up later that phase and hits him with a club. The Scarab wants to deflect this too but the rules say no.

 

I let the character get away with it at the same penalty as if it had been another missile deflect, but wouldn't it make sense to have a 5 point adder to the power that lets you deflect hth attacks too?

 

It just makes no sense to me that, if you can get the shield in the way of a bullet you can't then get it in the way of a club...

While I think that determination should to some extent be based on the sfx of both the attack and deflection, for the most part I agree with you. A medieval wooden shield might stop arrows and swords but it's not going to be much use against a light saber. A shield might be better bought as Armor or as a Force Wall to cover such situations as you described without changing the rules.

 

I think an Adder which allows blocking of HtH attacks should probably be more on the lines of +10 points or everyone and his brother will have Missile Deflection, because for only +5 points you've got a new defense against HtH attacks.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Blocking and deflecting

 

Or a +20 Adder to make it even more balanced and expensive since the SPEED chart and the limitations of full, half and 0 phase actions must be taken into account.

 

That said, you made a good call based on the SFX of the PC and the situation he was in.

 

Hawksmoor

[RDU Neil]

Re: Blocking and deflecting

 

Since Block is Missile Deflection vs. HtH... I've always allowed characters to buy Missile Reflection vs. HtH as a separate power than vs. Ranged attacks.

 

It has only come up once... and was vs. any attack, 20 points to Deflect HtH... vs. barehanded STR equal or less than your STR

+5 vs. with physical weapon at equal STR or less

+10 vs. physical weapon or greater STR

+15 vs. any physical effect HtH attack

+20 vs. any HtH attacks, including energy effects.

 

That's off the top of my head... so to REFLECT a light saber or Iron Fist's punch would be 40 points for the attempt. That sounds about right.

 

Again, fixed cost powers start to break at higher point level characters.

 

This is all just off the top of my head.

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: Blocking and deflecting

Howdy' date=' folks. Question for you....You can not use missile deflection for hth attacks: why?Recent situation came up where The Scarab was using his shield to deflect some bullets and a villain half moves up later that phase and hits him with a club. The Scarab wants to deflect this too but the rules say no.I let the character get away with it at the same penalty as if it had been another missile deflect, but wouldn't it make sense to have a 5 point adder to the power that lets you deflect hth attacks too?It just makes no sense to me that, if you can get the shield in the way of a bullet you can't then get it in the way of a club...[/quote']I think Block is intended as the HTH equivalent. No need to buy another power; just use a Block maneuver.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Blocking and deflecting

 

I think Block is intended as the HTH equivalent. No need to buy another power; just use a Block maneuver.

Actually I think you could make a pretty good case that since Missile Deflection is already a "Block" maneuver of sorts, that using it to stop an HtH attack after using it to block ranged attacks (with the appropriate modifiers, of course) within the same Phase would be perfectly legal, at least by the spirit of the law.

 

I would draw the line at allowing Reflection of HtH attacks, which would be far too powerful. (And for the life of me I can't even think of a precedent for that in comics.)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Blocking and deflecting

I think Block is intended as the HTH equivalent. No need to buy another power; just use a Block maneuver.

You are quite right, but as they are seperate manoeuvres, you can't do both at the same time, so in the situation described, technically someone who was missile deflecting couldn't block in the same phase as they are both attack actions.The reason I suggested 5 points as an adder rather than more is because everyone has block as a default anyway so I didn't think it added a huge amount to allow it to be used with missile deflect.

[GaryB]

Re: Blocking and deflecting

 

You are quite right, but as they are seperate manoeuvres, you can't do both at the same time, so in the situation described, technically someone who was missile deflecting couldn't block in the same phase as they are both attack actions.

 

The reason I suggested 5 points as an adder rather than more is because everyone has block as a default anyway so I didn't think it added a huge amount to allow it to be used with missile deflect.

 

But that is also the nature of the beast of balance. When making yourself block HtH attacks, this means something is in range to do so and the guy shooting you from elsewhere doesn't mean much at the moment. If you are not getting attacked with HtH, then you are free to deflect ranged attacks.

 

If you really want to do both at the same time, you're better off buying the 5 point per +1 DCV with a focus and activation or skill roll.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Blocking and deflecting

 

But that is also the nature of the beast of balance. When making yourself block HtH attacks, this means something is in range to do so and the guy shooting you from elsewhere doesn't mean much at the moment. If you are not getting attacked with HtH, then you are free to deflect ranged attacks.

 

If you really want to do both at the same time, you're better off buying the 5 point per +1 DCV with a focus and activation or skill roll.

 

Ah, balance....

 

A good point, but I don't think it comes up that often, DCV levels don't do a particularly good job of simulating the effect (the explosive bullet, for example). Blocking is quite balanced anyway as you have to end your phase to do it.

 

I mean you can buy missile deflect as trigegred by blocking so both turn on at the same time and that is quite cheap, but it would be neater to do it with an adder IMO.

[Doppler]

Re: Blocking and deflecting

 

I prefer Force Wall, 0 range, RSR: Dex or Use Shield as you determine for deflecting attacks with a shield/bracers/whatever.

[Mike W]

Re: Blocking and deflecting

 

Shields should(IMO) generally be bought as armor with a skill roll.

Missile deflect vs. hth is a bit abusive I think. You already have martial block, plus you can often apply two or three point combat levels. Also, HTH autofires are often limited by END cost as to how many times the attacker can use them. Ranged autofire attacks are much more likely to be built on charges(so they are limited more by the number of charges than by END and are usually easier to use multiple times in one fight).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Blocking and deflecting

 

Shields should(IMO) generally be bought as armor with a skill roll.

Missile deflect vs. hth is a bit abusive I think. You already have martial block, plus you can often apply two or three point combat levels. Also, HTH autofires are often limited by END cost as to how many times the attacker can use them. Ranged autofire attacks are much more likely to be built on charges(so they are limited more by the number of charges than by END and are usually easier to use multiple times in one fight).

 

Autofire counts as a single attack for MD and block, doesn't it?

 

I can't say I agree with you on the 'how shields should be built' point - missile deflection/block seems the obvious one for any attempt to prevent an attack hurting you using skill, and the shield the perfect focus. Matter for the individual, of course.

 

If you are going to go that way though, can I comment Doppler on an excellent suggestion - using force wall. Once something gets through it goes down, similar to block/MD (although based on damage not skill).

 

In practive I almost always build shields as multipowers - some armour on an activation, some MD, some offence too (for throwing it).

 

Point I make though is that block and MD are the same mechanic. If you can deflect a laser shot at you from an adjacent hex, it makes little sense to not be able to deflect a lightsabre attack from the hex next to that. Depends of SFX, of course, but, assuming the sost is right, I can not see any good reason not to include HtH attacks in the missile deflection power. Well, apart from having to change the name that is....

[badger3k]

Re: Blocking and deflecting

 

Howdy, folks. Question for you....

 

You can not use missile deflection for hth attacks: why?

 

Recent situation came up where The Scarab was using his shield to deflect some bullets and a villain half moves up later that phase and hits him with a club. The Scarab wants to deflect this too but the rules say no.

 

I let the character get away with it at the same penalty as if it had been another missile deflect, but wouldn't it make sense to have a 5 point adder to the power that lets you deflect hth attacks too?

 

It just makes no sense to me that, if you can get the shield in the way of a bullet you can't then get it in the way of a club...

 

That's why most shields have a bonus to DCV, and the block maneuver. Stopping something that is on a set trajectory is certainly different than stopping a club that is aimed and can change the direction and angle of attack, among other things.

[badger3k]

Re: Blocking and deflecting

 

You are quite right, but as they are seperate manoeuvres, you can't do both at the same time, so in the situation described, technically someone who was missile deflecting couldn't block in the same phase as they are both attack actions.

 

The reason I suggested 5 points as an adder rather than more is because everyone has block as a default anyway so I didn't think it added a huge amount to allow it to be used with missile deflect.

 

Well, let's shoot at someone with a bullet on the left side, while simulataneously attacking him with a club on the right, and see how he manages to block both in the same second. If both attacks were coming from the same angle, then I might allow such a use, otherwise, you're asking to do too much at once. Why not just make missile deflection a 0-phase action if you want multiple attacks to be blocked?

[Mike W]

Re: Blocking and deflecting

 

Three things: First, yes, you block an autofire all at once but I was noting all the bonuses you get to block it because most people buy LOTS of levels with the autofire so that they have a shot at getting all the hits - so you generally need a very high CV to block it.

 

Second, I can see building a shield as extra DCV to represent "cover". But it depends on the character too. Capt. America definitely has armor(or maybe damage reduction) in his shield. After all, he uses it to protect himself from blasts that would kill most people, and it clearly makes a difference.

 

Third, missile deflect and block would be somewhat different techniques, so I could see having to use missile deflect only for missiles. Kind of like martial grab and chokehold. They are similar techniques, but not quite the same thing. You can't use grab to do both.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Blocking and deflecting

 

Well' date=' let's shoot at someone with a bullet on the left side, while simulataneously attacking him with a club on the right, and see how he manages to block both in the same second. If both attacks were coming from the same angle, then I might allow such a use, otherwise, you're asking to do too much at once. Why not just make missile deflection a 0-phase action if you want multiple attacks to be blocked?[/quote']

 

 

...but you have no problem with being shot from both sides 'simultaneously' and still deflecting both? Hmmmm...Do you think that's air you're breathing?

 

And on your earlier post, yes a club can change direction, but a laser beam takes no measurable time at all to get from the gun barrel to you. If you can deflect something moveing at lightspeed, a club shouldn't be a problem. I know that you can look at the gun barrel and work out where the beam will go, but the gun can be re-aimed just before the trigger is pulled, can't it?

 

Your objections seem to be about the use of the power at all not extending its use to HtH.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Blocking and deflecting

 

Well' date=' let's shoot at someone with a bullet on the left side, while simulataneously attacking him with a club on the right, and see how he manages to block both in the same second. If both attacks were coming from the same angle, then I might allow such a use, otherwise, you're asking to do too much at once. Why not just make missile deflection a 0-phase action if you want multiple attacks to be blocked?[/quote']

 

I agree with you that a bullet from the left and a club from the right seems tough to block. I don't agree that it seems any tougher than a bullet from the left and a THROWN club from the right, which can be done under the existing rules.

 

Perhaps the better approach is to view Missile Deflection as "allowing block to apply against ranged attacks". You can then rule that, at its base level, the character must choose between ranged and HTH attacks with each use, and allow an adder (+5 or +10, say) to be able to do both at once, with the usual cumulative penalties, or simply allow that MD allows Block to add ranged weapons.

 

In other words, we could view the various Missile Deflections as Adders to the zero point Block maneuver, rather than as a separate power mutually exclusive from blocking ('deflecting") HTH attacks.

 

This dovetails nicely with adders which permit reflection of ranged attacks being allowed (at the same point cost) to reflect HTH attacks.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Blocking and deflecting

 

I agree with you that a bullet from the left and a club from the right seems tough to block. I don't agree that it seems any tougher than a bullet from the left and a THROWN club from the right, which can be done under the existing rules.

 

Perhaps the better approach is to view Missile Deflection as "allowing block to apply against ranged attacks". You can then rule that, at its base level, the character must choose between ranged and HTH attacks with each use, and allow an adder (+5 or +10, say) to be able to do both at once, with the usual cumulative penalties, or simply allow that MD allows Block to add ranged weapons.

 

In other words, we could view the various Missile Deflections as Adders to the zero point Block maneuver, rather than as a separate power mutually exclusive from blocking ('deflecting") HTH attacks.

 

This dovetails nicely with adders which permit reflection of ranged attacks being allowed (at the same point cost) to reflect HTH attacks.

 

 

Not a bad plan although I must admit I feel somewhat apprehensive at allowing reflection to extend to HtH attacks. Say a punch: doesn't seem to make a great deal of sense, although I can see you might have some sort of martial arts sfx going here. hmmm. Have to think aboutt hat one.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Blocking and deflecting

 

Not a bad plan although I must admit I feel somewhat apprehensive at allowing reflection to extend to HtH attacks. Say a punch: doesn't seem to make a great deal of sense' date=' although I can see you might have some sort of martial arts sfx going here. hmmm. Have to think aboutt hat one.[/quote']

 

My thinking with reflection is that you would have to buy it twice, once for ranged and once for HTH attacks. SFX need to justify the result. The best example I've seen is a warp field creating character - your hand disappears through his warp and comes out the other end to strike you in the face.

[lemming]

Re: Blocking and deflecting

 

I agree with how you handled it from the first post. And thinking things thru, I'd probably do the same. It's actually quite rare for me to see Missile Deflection, but that's just in the games I've been in.

 

I would probably just roll Deflection and Blocking into the same manuever class. Meaning if someone shot at Target, he missile deflects. Someone throws a punch, he blocks at -2. Another shot comes in, deflect at -4.

 

So no additional adder needed for HtH. Though that does ignore the possibility of the levels from Missile Deflection. I'd make them buy 3 points that could be used for both.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Blocking and deflecting

 

My thinking with reflection is that you would have to buy it twice' date=' once for ranged and once for HTH attacks. SFX need to justify the result. The best example I've seen is a warp field creating character - your hand disappears through his warp and comes out the other end to strike you in the face.[/quote']

 

That'd do it!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Blocking and deflecting

 

I agree with how you handled it from the first post. And thinking things thru, I'd probably do the same. It's actually quite rare for me to see Missile Deflection, but that's just in the games I've been in.

 

I would probably just roll Deflection and Blocking into the same manuever class. Meaning if someone shot at Target, he missile deflects. Someone throws a punch, he blocks at -2. Another shot comes in, deflect at -4.

 

So no additional adder needed for HtH. Though that does ignore the possibility of the levels from Missile Deflection. I'd make them buy 3 points that could be used for both.

 

 

Good point about the levels I hadn't thought of that (the roll was the same in the example I gave - no added levels). You could do it with different ability levels for HtH and missile but it would get messy quickly!

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Blocking and deflecting

 

 

I would draw the line at allowing Reflection of HtH attacks, which would be far too powerful. (And for the life of me I can't even think of a precedent for that in comics.)

 

Actually, characters can reflect HtH based attacks back at an attacker based on the Grab and Redirect maneuver described in the UMA. The defender can make a Grab Weapon attempt on an incoming attack (provided he has some Lightning Reflexes, or beats the attacker in an opposed DEX roll) which is effectively handled like a block (I believe its an OCV vs OCV roll) then after an immediate STR contest, can use the opponents own weapon to attack him with!

 

Hand to Hand Reflection!

 

You can even attack people adjecent to you at a penalty. Cool stuff.

 

Anyway, the best way to simulate a Hand to Hand reflection power is with a Mimic pool bought with the Damage Sheild advantage. The attacker hits your character and wham! gets hit back with their own attack! Expensive, yes, but ultimately very satisfying.

 

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Blocking and deflecting

 

I agree with how you handled it from the first post. And thinking things thru, I'd probably do the same. It's actually quite rare for me to see Missile Deflection, but that's just in the games I've been in.

 

I would probably just roll Deflection and Blocking into the same manuever class. Meaning if someone shot at Target, he missile deflects. Someone throws a punch, he blocks at -2. Another shot comes in, deflect at -4.

 

So no additional adder needed for HtH. Though that does ignore the possibility of the levels from Missile Deflection. I'd make them buy 3 points that could be used for both.

 

Thats how I do it!

 

Mind you, for more realistic/gritty campaigns, I don't allow this, but in more cinematic and Martial oriented campaigns, its no problem.

 

heck, I've been doing that since back in the 4th edition days....

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Blocking and deflecting

 

Expensive' date=' yes, but ultimately very satisfying.[/quote']

 

Your approach allows for an automatic reflection, no actions expended, and no chance of a miss, so it should be expensive. Why, however, should there not be a mechanic for reflection of HTH which is similar to Missile Reflection, with the requirement to use an action, make "block" rolls and successfully hit the target, at a commensurately reduced cost? Sure, you could apply a bunch of limits to your Damage Shield VPP, but we have a mechanic for doing this against ranged attacks already - why not just co-opt it for HTH?