Avenger/Justice League in the "real" world

[Rubric]

Re: Avenger/Justice League in the "real" world

 

But what if your sword swinging opponent batted the bullet out of the air?

 

He can't because they're... ummm... "magic" bullets.

 

Ok, I'm derailing my own thread.....never mind.

 

Didn't mean to hijack anything. Just to reiterate my answer to the original question: Guns are much more EFFECTIVE in the real world, than they are in comic books. People hardly ever get shot in comics, unless they're bullet proof.

 

Does anyone remember the Image comic Wild Cats? I don't know if it's still around. There was a character called Spartan, who could regrow his limbs if he lost them. As a result, his arms got hacked off in EVERY issue. And yet, no other character ever ever got injured. Cool character hook, yes. But not too realistic.

 

My point is, real world supers would encounter death and injury a LOT more than comic book characters do.

 

One last thing on this whole subject: Perhaps the best way to analyze this subject is to look at the real world and ask yourself, "Why aren't there more vigilante crime fighters in real life?"

[Iuz the Evil]

Re: Avenger/Justice League in the "real" world

 

The Authority is a prime example of what to fear.

 

Another dystopia would be: Kingdom Come: the nuke worked. The next generation of supers, after everyone including the best and purest of the old school were killed off, would see mankind as a deadly enemy: it would be an established fact. Without Superman (and some other extraordinary paladins), there is no forgiveness or stopping point in that conflict.

 

I've been thinking about the Authority a lot this past week, given their recurrence as a topic in several threads. While I'm not very thrilled with the level of escalation which seems to have happened in the comic, now that I've considered it for a while I can absolutely see any group of PCs I've ever gamed with doing just about exactly the same thing given the same circumstances. Their response is over the top, but it is extremely logical. If a government, even my own government, tortured & mutilated me and my loved ones I would take it personally. I wouldn't be much in the mood to listen to a lot of rationalization about it either. Add in the fact they have clear proof of complicity in world-wide atrocities, and the power to pretty much put a stop to it (they're in the "godlike and ridiculous" range point wise I would think), and honestly who wouldn't do exactly what this comic super group has been depicted as doing? I'm pretty much in agreement with them after much reflection... would very much prefer not to be an innocent bystander in such a circumstance however, or a citizen of the offending government.

 

I was pleasantly surprised by the end of Kingdom Come, and to me that was another example of ways in which Superman is an Iconic character that consistently exceeds the norm in his actions. I daresay most people would be exterminating the UN and halfway to "Authority-esque" behavior before they bothered to listen after watching (what they thought to be) the death of pretty much all their friends. Successful nuclear strike would be a recipe for exactly what you indicated, future supers would be considering themselves (accurately) in a fight to the finish with no holds barred. Ugh, that would suck.

[The Owl]

Re: Avenger/Justice League in the "real" world

 

Rubric wrote: Perhaps the best way to analyze this subject is to look at the real world and ask yourself, "Why aren't there more vigilante crime fighters in real life?"***

 

This might be more a look into my own mental health than anything else, but my own concerns would revolve a whole lot less around my getting shot/killed, and a whole lot more about what negative press would do to my family and about having to pretty much give up my family to protect them.

 

Then there's forensic evidence and our lovely legal system. I doubt a mask or sunglasses would go as far in a real world setting.

 

"Well, we're looking for a Caucasian woman, 5'1", bright red hair, about 15-25 years old, waving a shotgun and wearing Wranglers and a tee shirt, but we'll never find her, 1/3 of her face was covered! Damn her vigilante brilliance!"

[Iuz the Evil]

Re: Avenger/Justice League in the "real" world

 

Then there's forensic evidence and our lovely legal system. I doubt a mask or sunglasses would go as far in a real world setting.

 

"Well, we're looking for a Caucasian woman, 5'1", bright red hair, about 15-25 years old, waving a shotgun and wearing Wranglers and a tee shirt, but we'll never find her, 1/3 of her face was covered! Damn her vigilante brilliance!"

 

You have so exactly clarified the reason why I am not kicking the crap out of innumerable child molesters/abusers and abusive spouses whose information I come across on a daily basis. "Damn, the Counseling Crusader is a caucasian male, about 6'6" and weighing approximately 250-275 lbs. with blue eyes and facial hair. Curse him and his clever knowledge of psychotherapeutic principles, if only he wasn't wearing a half-mask we'd track him to his lair!!!"

 

That is so damn funny, rep for you.

[Iuz the Evil]

Re: Avenger/Justice League in the "real" world

 

On further reflection, there are approximately four things which I think would be crucial to be a "real world vigilante"...

 

1) Indeterminate Ethnic Origin - hispanic/african american/asian/caucasian/unkown ethnicity which would not be easily identified, or a really good level of skin/hair coverage. Don't look arabic at all. Right now, it just would be impossible to be operating outside the law as a violent vigilante if someone was a representative of that particular ethnic group (much like a Japanese-American would struggle with this during WWII).

 

2) slight build/middling physical size - would need to be between 5'8" and 6' as a male, between 5'4" and 5'6" as a female, neither over nor underweight, with no obvious tattoos or piercings.

 

3) Don't speak at all, ever

 

4) Not be a "secreter" so that blood type cannot be identified from sweat, tears, spit, etc. (that'd be about 20% or less of the population)

 

With those in place, you'd have a solid chance of not being picked out by the police after your first one or two vigilante operations. That's barring a random cop in the wrong place, at the wrong time (from your perspective).

[nexus]

Re: Avenger/Justice League in the "real" world

 

To be fair, the abilities of Forensics is exxagerated in TV shows such as CSI and Law and Order. There are more than enough career criminals and serial killers that have forensic clues left yet are on the loose for years until the police get a lucky break.

 

People have surprisingly bad memories for faces, particularly under stress for example. Eye witneses are notoriously inaccurate sometimes. Ethinic features aren't a dead give away in most major city unless your ethinicity is something exotic.

 

Even if you do leave traces, unless your in a criminal database somewhere it is not going to lead the cops straight to you. It will be used to convinct you if you are caught at some later data.

 

Edit: As I undestand it.

 

I think there are few vigilante crimes fighters in reality mainly because..its reality. No script immunity. You're not Batman and most people know that. You'd quickly be shot, stabbed or something by some random "thug". Most people with training to pull it off are already cops or in the military or appropriate professions such bounty hunter. Normal Citizens that take the law into their own hands are usually avenging something done to them and don't go a general spree. Real people just aren't that "dramatic".

[The Owl]

Re: Avenger/Justice League in the "real" world

 

Heh, that's a great list, Iuz. Unfortunately my first reaction to the first two rules is "But I ****ing hate Halle Berry!"

 

You should probably use only weapons stolen from criminals. And don't train at the range or go to a dojo. And, this is very important, do NOT have a cool skill-giving or useful-to-crimefighting job.

[Southern Cross]

Re: Avenger/Justice League in the "real" world

 

Actually,the rule about using only weapons stolen from criminals is not a good idea.The police might think that you're a criminal then....

Of course,if you are playing an actual superbeing,then you might not need a weapon (or make do with improvised weapons,if you're a brick).

[Wanderer]

Re: Avenger/Justice League in the "real" world

 

Tactically, I don't think you can rely too much on pre-emptive surprise attacks, otherwise everyone gets very paranoid about what the global guardians will do next (or who they will attack next). I'm not saying: abstain from pre-emptive acts of war, that would be ridiculous. They're a staple of the genre, for good reason. If it seems reasonable to go to the Island of Doctor Destroyer and pre-empt the bad guy, so on. But try not to habitually present national governments with faits accomplis, successfully completed sneak attacks and "facts on the ground." Don't let this become your usual way of doing an end run around tedious human politics and diplomacy. If the Canadian government insists you can't chase crooks over their border, accept that.

 

In the long run, the laws will probably change to let the global guardians do things that national governments want done - provided the team doesn't let the politicians condemn them as law-breakers while having full confidence that the team will solve their problems for them anyway.

 

You cannot jerk people around and do this job right. If the team issues a warning or says something has to be done, it can't be a trick.

 

Even though such a team will in effect be above the law, it can't act like it. Here's an example. If a team member attacks/injures/kills someone for insulting or defying them, and the team holds a trial and takes an excuse for that, or assigns a penalty that's a slap on the wrist, then they may feel they've been compassionate, moderate, fair etc., but from the point of view of almost anybody not in the team, they will have awarded themselves the samurai's right of "killing and going away," and everything about how they interact with the rest of the world will change, it will be tainted by feat and resentment. I think it's much, much better to rely on ordinary courts when possible, and to be just, even when it seems harsh and ungrateful to team-mates who may once have saved your lives.

 

It's much better if the most reliable "boy scout" members of the team are also known to have long life-spans. People will put up with a lot if they can see that the long term is likely to be better, not worse. If people can see that the team has an immortal, regenerating Psycho-Killer (which I would very much not recommend), who'll outlive Commander Justice, Princess Prudence, Doctor Temperance and Lord Fortitude, then your problems don't arise when that happens, they arise when people start to think about that happening, which means immediately.

 

Sorry, super-powered guys with real-world psychologies meekily submitting to the vagaries of ordinary courts, and people being like they are, being flooded with specious and politically-laden criminal charges and vicious punitive lawsuits is completely, totally unplausible, barring the kind of near-psychotic boyscout mindset the supers seem to be burdened in comics. Just look at what people with similar separate mindsets do in RL: military get their own criminal court system (and the current US administration is more than willing to undergo uphill diplomatic crisis to ensure their armed forces never ever risk to be liable to be judged by international tribunals they don't control), police officials run by an irontight code of stonewalling and mutual support vs. chrges to one of them, clergy fought viciously for centuries to keep their right to be judged by their own peers. There's simply no way realistic superhumans would submit to the kind of vicious litigation and specious criminal charges RL celebrities are saddled with.

 

They would either: a) run by ironclad Secret Identities (you cannot enforce litigation on them) arm-twist the government on passing laws extempting them from litigation and allowing them to be tried by their peers only for criminal charges c) simply declare themselves above human laws and daring governments to risk superpowered war to oppose.

 

The way I see it, realistic superhumans would divide among "Super-agents", the ones that would set up themselves as high-payed, special operations supersoldiers in service to major governments, with ample national-security legal immunities (Think "Avengers", but without the four-color stuff), "Sponsors", the ones with ties to corporate interests, media, and entairtaintment, who would act as celebrities, mercenaries, athletes, spokespersons, and rely on their powers to manipulate/intimidate others into giving them legal immunity (think "Aberrant"), and "Crusaders", the ones who would feel a moral imperative to use their powers to change the world and pursue a political cause (think "Authority"). They would be the ones most resembling classical superheroes, since they would act selflessly, from a moral imperative. But in all likelihood their mindset and modus operandi would resemble much more the Authority (even if they would be likely many more different crusader superbeings and supergroups, figthing for different ideals, like environmentalism, vigilantism, fascism, socialism, anarchism, etc.) in deeds and acts. Crusaders superbeings would just deem, or openly decalre, themselves unbound from normal laws, and challenge anyone to defy their status.

[Wanderer]

Re: Avenger/Justice League in the "real" world

 

On lawsuits - I think any country where heroes get sued a lot would be declaring itself a hero-free zone, and effectively an international haven for villains. Given the American legal system, you could see a situation that reversed what we see in the comics, where the heroes stand in America, debating if they can go to Third-Worldistan, where the villains have free run. It might be heroes in their own base or in some small country that had put an end to super-crime by licensing one hero team to do pretty much anything they want, and the discussion would be about the growing power of villains in the United States of America, who we can't touch because if we go there we'll get our costumes sued off, and have to fight the police force and the army (neither of which we would do of course) if we refuse to pay up.

 

But - every time people talk about the law and supers, especially in America, I think of illegal immigration. The law there is totally not in force, because for different reasons people on both sides of politics want it not to be in force. If wealthy contributors who benefit from cheap (illegal) labor won't contribute to any politician who is going to do something about illegals, that has its effect. And if letting villains have a free run is bad for business, which I think it would be, then in the same way, anything that gets in the way of super crime fighters is going to be totally vitiated. The government may be able to gather information that will bust your secret identity and sling you in the pokey, but politicians acting on the wishes of their donors may make gathering such information practically impossible or even illegal. I'm reminded of a sign in an Indonesian businessman's window during a crime wave that was put down by extra-legal violence: "Mysterious gunmen welcome here."

 

Besides this, I think it shouldn't be too difficult to persuade giving the supers a lawsuit-break, given the proper incentive, like:

 

Mr. Incredible "Hello, this the HQ of the Cosmic Legion, how may we help us ?"

 

U.S. President "We need your help, the Jihad Army of the Blessed of Allah is about to blow up Detroit"

 

Mr. Incredible "Sorry, Mr. President, after the last onslaught of frivolous lawsuits and sexual harassment charges, we have voted to ban operating on US soil. Maybe a people that deems acceptable to sue the ones who have just saved their butts does not deserve keep saving..."

 

U.S. Prez "Don't hang up, dammit. O.K. I'll get Congress to pass emergency legislation banning punitive lawsuits to superhumans, and supers will get juries made up of supers."

 

Mr. Incredible" What about legal immunity when operating in liason with US government in matters of national security, too?"

 

US Prez "£$%&. Oh, well, OK. But help us"

 

Mr. Incredible "Ahh, I was sure you were coming to understand our viewpoint. Cosmic Legion to the Rescue!"

[Wanderer]

Re: Avenger/Justice League in the "real" world

 

I've been thinking about the Authority a lot this past week' date=' given their recurrence as a topic in several threads. While I'm not very thrilled with the level of escalation which seems to have happened in the comic, now that I've considered it for a while I can absolutely see any group of PCs I've ever gamed with doing just about exactly the same thing given the same circumstances. Their response is over the top, but it is extremely logical. If a government, even my own government, tortured & mutilated me and my loved ones I would take it personally. I wouldn't be much in the mood to listen to a lot of rationalization about it either. Add in the fact they have clear proof of complicity in world-wide atrocities, and the power to pretty much put a stop to it (they're in the "godlike and ridiculous" range point wise I would think), and honestly who wouldn't do exactly what this comic super group has been depicted as doing? I'm pretty much in agreement with them after much reflection... would very much prefer not to be an innocent bystander in such a circumstance however, or a citizen of the offending government. [/quote']

 

While the level of evil and corruption in government and corporate echelons in Authority is just a bit unrealistic (OTOH, the comic was written before Abu Grahib existed...), one of the things that endaer me the most to the comic is that the actions of the main character supershumans look quite realistic. That's how people with godlike superpowers and the "crusading" mentality likely undepinning a "superhero" career would in all likelihood behave. Where the comic again becomes unrealistic is where it assumes only one small groups of people, with compatible worldviews, would have that kind of power. If you assume that multiple groups with incompatible views exist, then Kingdom Come becomes a more plausible scenario.

 

I was pleasantly surprised by the end of Kingdom Come, and to me that was another example of ways in which Superman is an Iconic character that consistently exceeds the norm in his actions. I daresay most people would be exterminating the UN and halfway to "Authority-esque" behavior before they bothered to listen after watching (what they thought to be) the death of pretty much all their friends. Successful nuclear strike would be a recipe for exactly what you indicated, future supers would be considering themselves (accurately) in a fight to the finish with no holds barred. Ugh, that would suck.

 

The end of Kingdom Come is only made remotely plausible by Superman's near-psychotic committment to law, notwithstanding normal emotions, like love, hatred, regret, and rage. Normal people would bring down the UN building and exterminate the bastards after they'd have launched a nuclear strike on all of their close friends and loved one. Then proceed to summarily abolish human governments for sure. The day governments would dare use nuclear weapons against superhumans would be the day supers would committ to total war until mankind would be enslaved.

 

Do you remember the "Animatrix" movie piece, the one where the origin of the machines' dominion is told? The way originally well-meaning machines are moved to separatism, then to war, eventually to enslaving human race from persistent human prejudice, persecution, and unprovoked armed attacks? That's the way it would look.

[assault]

Re: Avenger/Justice League in the "real" world

 

"Crusaders"' date=' the ones who would feel a moral imperative to use their powers to change the world and pursue a political cause (think "Authority"). They would be the ones most resembling classical superheroes, since they would act selflessly, from a moral imperative. But in all likelihood their mindset and modus operandi would resemble much more the Authority (even if they would be likely many more different crusader superbeings and supergroups, figthing for different ideals, like environmentalism, vigilantism, fascism, socialism, anarchism, etc.) in deeds and acts. Crusaders superbeings would just deem, or openly decalre, themselves unbound from normal laws, and challenge anyone to defy their status.[/quote']

 

That's assuming a complete lack of subtlety, and a "hit it until it stops moving" approach to problem solving. While that's very four colour, it's not necessarily the best approach in a "realistic" world.

 

I suspect most supers would simply avoid the problem by keeping a fairly low profile.

 

(Personally, I would use a mixture of that and a discreet "understanding" with a friendly government or two.)

 

We should note, though, that the Authority option is very strongly connected to a particular set of assumptions. A quick glance at both the (early) JLA and other "realistic" titles like Zenith and Marvelman/Miracleman show that other options are possible.

 

The JLA had a bunch of characters that simply weren't interested in meddling in human politics. The Martian Manhunter and Aquaman simply didn't care. Wonder Woman was on a mission, and Green Lantern was a subordinate. That really only left Flash, Batman and Superman as potential world changers. Batman, of course, had his own obsessions, which only left the Flash and Superman.

 

It's easy enough to sneer at Superman, but he has had experience with a whole bunch of world conquerors, some of whom, no doubt, every bit as benevolent in their intentions as any "pro-active" superhuman you care to imagine. And he's seen where this leads to...

 

Superman's philosophy is not necessarily naive. It is, in part, the result of experience. As such, it compares favourably with many of the alternatives, especially those of a more testosterone fuelled variety.

 

And, quite frankly, it would be good to have someone like him around to keep the more "realistic" psychos in line.

[David Blue]

Re: Avenger/Justice League in the "real" world

 

Wanderer: "Sorry, super-powered guys with real-world psychologies meekily submitting to the vagaries of ordinary courts, and people being like they are, being flooded with specious and politically-laden criminal charges and vicious punitive lawsuits is completely, totally unplausible, barring the kind of near-psychotic boyscout mindset the supers seem to be burdened in comics."

 

This is where we part company. I don't consider the "boyscout mentalities" we see in some comic characters "near-psychotic". Rather, I consider them admirable and possible, and I admire them. I certainly wouldn't bar them. Go, go the big blue boy scout!

 

I think OddHat already said this, but the problem with "real world" adventures is that we have different opinions on what the real world is like. This applies to all sorts of things.

 

I partly agree with you and partly disagree with you about what things might happen. But there's no way to resolve this. All we can do is politely make clear what we think - and then plunder everything for gaming purposes, because that's ultimately the point.

 

"They would either: a) run by ironclad Secret Identities (you cannot enforce litigation on them) arm-twist the government on passing laws exempting them from litigation and allowing them to be tried by their peers only for criminal charges c) simply declare themselves above human laws and daring governments to risk superpowered war to oppose."

 

a) and c) might suit only some members of the world-wide guardian team. If one of the aliens is twelve foot tall all the time, he might want a solution that works for those who can't comfortably remain disguised. And if you go with the classic hero types, there are bound to be at least some members of the team that will say c) is no solution as far as they are concerned.

 

(Of course if you bar the boy-scout types and anyone else who would object to option c) from being player characters, then that's not a problem. This is why it's good to spell out some of our assumptions about what kinds of people there can be in the game or in the comic world.)

 

I also think option c) is politically inept to say the least, since it neglects the advantages of legitimating the way you need things done, regularising relations and easing tensions.

 

I pick option , though I think the arm-twisting could and should be as polite as possible. Like I said, I don't think the super-team should or in the long run would cooperate with people who wanted to condemn and even attack them as law-breakers for doing merely reasonable things, while being sure that the team supreme would always pull their chestnut out of the fire anyway.

 

Wanderer: "Besides this, I think it shouldn't be too difficult to persuade giving the supers a lawsuit-break, given the proper incentive, like:" [snip, all good stuff]

 

If the politicians don't get their own affairs in order, which they might well not, I agree with this. You can do it off-panel or on-panel depending on what tone you're going for in the game. Or you can make it more or less subtle. And it doesn't have to come early in the game (though it might), or in one big package. But if the politicians are that crude about not moving till they hear the ultimatum, then there yes will be a conversation like that. And the bottom line is that the law will come to reflect that sort of understanding.

 

Mr. Incredible "Ahh, I was sure you were coming to understand our viewpoint. Cosmic Legion to the Rescue!"

 

Just so.

[The Owl]

Re: Avenger/Justice League in the "real" world

 

Actually,the rule about using only weapons stolen from criminals is not a good idea.The police might think that you're a criminal then....

 

My thought was that in the real world, a vigilante is a criminal. So you might as well have something that gets traced to Capone and not you.

 

Unless you are Jackie Chan, and can kill people with Bubble Yum, in which case you should definitely do that, just to encourage gum control.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Avenger/Justice League in the "real" world

 

I think if people with superpowers of any sort started appearing publicly, there'd be a collective global "freak out period" lasting anywhere from several weeks to several years. Once it was determined not to be a sign of the Apocalypse, and that not all supers were murderous sociopaths, there'd be a scramble to adapt to the situation: governments would try to coopt/control/contain them, corporations would try to endorse/exploit them, terrorists and tyrants might try to kill or subvert them, fans might stalk or worship them, ministers might cast aspersions on them or convert them, media and paparazzi might hound them, and celebrities might "attach" themselves to them.

 

Supers operating at an Avengers/JLA level could probably withstand external pressures from governments and corporations, and determine their own relationship to the rest of the world. Anybody who might survive a direct hit with a nuclear bomb is going to be dealt with veeeery carefully.

 

edit--and in a superpowered world, world leaders might have the mortality rate of convenience store clerks in rough neighborhoods...

[David Blue]

Re: Avenger/Justice League in the "real" world

 

Megaplayboy: ". . .there'd be a scramble to adapt to the situation: governments would try to coopt/control/contain them, corporations would try to endorse/exploit them, terrorists and tyrants might try to kill or subvert them, fans might stalk or worship them, ministers might cast aspersions on them or convert them, media and paparazzi might hound them, and celebrities might "attach" themselves to them."

 

I think that's right.

 

It could limit your effectiveness in dealing with people if you let that get out of hand, because you'd be smothered in efforts to manipulate you into doing other people's jobs for them. People would strive to monopolise access to the superpowered "assets".

 

I think the solution is: don't be too "interesting". That's tough to do for extreme superheroes, but with character and restraint, possible.

 

Draw bright lines, or as bright as you can. If you don't endorse anything, sooner or later adverting guys with a brilliant idea to coopt the global hero team would be told to stop wasting the company's money, because we all know those guys never go for that. (grin - "Go back to trying to arrange for our company's logos to be in the background every time the team is filmed giving a message or doing anything.") Much more importantly, prove consistently, without exceptions, that you won't intervene in politics, you won't do invasions and so on, and eventually every schemer and politician in the world is no longer trying to get you to intervene (probably unwittingly) on their side.

 

Just lots of them. You can never end this, but with discipline you can keep it down to a dull roar.

 

Or, alternately: freely endorse, intervene, adopt causes that aren't your business and pick sides in local political/ethnic/nationalist disputes, speak on religion, race and and all sorts of things (especially with vague implications that you might do something) - and the effects will be like answering every piece of span you get with a friendly expression of interest, confirming to all the spammers that there's a live sucker at that address.

 

It could be fun to play out team debates on what is "our business". Heroes with different agendas and personalities would have very different views on that. (If the whole point of your being on Earth is to promote the Amazon way, you can't really agree to shut up on that.) The only common ground might be that everything can't be our business.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Avenger/Justice League in the "real" world

 

Megaplayboy: ". . .there'd be a scramble to adapt to the situation: governments would try to coopt/control/contain them, corporations would try to endorse/exploit them, terrorists and tyrants might try to kill or subvert them, fans might stalk or worship them, ministers might cast aspersions on them or convert them, media and paparazzi might hound them, and celebrities might "attach" themselves to them."

 

I think that's right.

 

It could limit your effectiveness in dealing with people if you let that get out of hand, because you'd be smothered in efforts to manipulate you into doing other people's jobs for them. People would strive to monopolise access to the superpowered "assets".

 

I think the solution is: don't be too "interesting". That's tough to do for extreme superheroes, but with character and restraint, possible.

 

Draw bright lines, or as bright as you can. If you don't endorse anything, sooner or later adverting guys with a brilliant idea to coopt the global hero team would be told to stop wasting the company's money, because we all know those guys never go for that. (grin - "Go back to trying to arrange for our company's logos to be in the background every time the team is filmed giving a message or doing anything.") Much more importantly, prove consistently, without exceptions, that you won't intervene in politics, you won't do invasions and so on, and eventually every schemer and politician in the world is no longer trying to get you to intervene (probably unwittingly) on their side.

 

Just lots of them. You can never end this, but with discipline you can keep it down to a dull roar.

 

Or, alternately: freely endorse, intervene, adopt causes that aren't your business and pick sides in local political/ethnic/nationalist disputes, speak on religion, race and and all sorts of things (especially with vague implications that you might do something) - and the effects will be like answering every piece of span you get with a friendly expression of interest, confirming to all the spammers that there's a live sucker at that address.

 

It could be fun to play out team debates on what is "our business". Heroes with different agendas and personalities would have very different views on that. (If the whole point of your being on Earth is to promote the Amazon way, you can't really agree to shut up on that.) The only common ground might be that everything can't be our business.

 

Well, I note that the Avengers/JLA rarely deal with plain old organized crime, perhaps because it wouldn't be a very good storyline. But I could see in the real world that some superhuman might make the argument that there are more important things to deal with(supervillains, tyrants, terror groups with WMD et al) than getting rid of the Bonanno family.

 

It'd be interesting to have a team with "endorsements" from unorthodox sponsors ("Team Unity, sponsored by Amnesty International, America's Most Wanted, and United Way")

[Red Knight]

Re: Avenger/Justice League in the "real" world

 

As depressing as this statement is....

 

I don't think that such a team could exist. I'm not saying beings with superpowers couldn't operate on Earth but with the political landscape and legal system(s) as it/they are... they simply could not function.

 

First of all... there would be the nay-sayers that would claim that the team would have a secret agenda. Then their would be the politicians who would be afraid of beings with super powers. Laws would be enacted and sanctions placed. The government would start and all-out mission to "control" these "Threats to national security".

 

Secondly, You'd have special interest groups begging for help or crying foul.

 

 

The only way such a group could function would be to willingly and knowingly operate outside of the law and hold themselves above all laws. Do you do the RIGHT thing or the LEGAL thing... and Yes.. there is a difference.

 

Simply stated..... our society... our world could not and would not tolerate a team of Superheroes...

 

What I can see happening is each major government would race to create theor own team... for National Defense. The Supers would become the next atomic bomb.....

 

Sorry but I deal with human nature too much to avoid these observations.

[assault]

Re: Avenger/Justice League in the "real" world

 

Simply stated..... our society... our world could not and would not tolerate a team of Superheroes...

 

What I can see happening is each major government would race to create theor own team... for National Defense. The Supers would become the next atomic bomb.....

 

Well, you are right that governments would seek to establish their own teams.

 

But... that would be one of the loopholes that a non-government team could seek to exploit.

 

They would make a deal: "we will make ourselves available to defend your country when required, as long as you don't interfere with us the rest of the time."

 

In effect, they become reservists in that country's military, subject to call-up in an emergency, but carrying on their civilian lives the rest of the time.

 

This would, of course, place them in direct opposition to the Wanderer-style world conquerors.

 

Obviously they would only be authorised to operate in certain countries. Crossing borders would be a bit tricky, but it could be manageable. Sometimes they might cross borders without permission...

 

It is quite likely that there will be rival groups of this kind, working with and for different allies/patrons, and it's probable that they would end up in conflict sooner or later, unless they established some kind of arrangement.

[David Blue]

Re: Avenger/Justice League in the "real" world

 

Megaplayboy: "It'd be interesting to have a team with "endorsements" from unorthodox sponsors ("Team Unity, sponsored by Amnesty International, America's Most Wanted, and United Way")"

 

That could be fun, and it could happen.

 

There's a story-line waiting to happen if one of your endorsements is wrapped in serious scandal. You'd have to clear it up even if that wasn't the kind of challenge the team usually accepted. (Which spells opportunity for the gamemaster to do something different.)

 

But it wouldn't be realistic - or fair play from the gamemaster - to have unexpected scandals be a regular problem, year after year.

[David Blue]

Re: Avenger/Justice League in the "real" world

 

What assault said looks right to me.

 

You would need flexibility and common sense, or very carefully worded written understandings.

 

I'm thinking of heroes with strong or total psychological limitations. If everybody knows in advance that Water-man has a total psychological limitation to defend the bubble-city he's building, and it's threatened while he's on, say, the Queen of England's military business, the U.K. military can't regard him as a deserter. If Cosmic Hippy-Chick will not kill no matter what, she can't be subject to orders that would make her kill. There has to be enough "conscientious objector" flexibility for the armed forces to gain all the good that supers can do for them, without throwing a fit when gaudily costumed super-idealists don't act like regular soldiers.

 

(Of course the superheroes would have to be reasonable too, or at least spell out their limits well in advance and do their best to be useful within them.)

 

I think such flexibility would be forthcoming. Most military people I've known have been practical and down to earth. It's not a good job for people who aren't results-oriented and willing to work with others.

 

Compared to Norman Schwarzkopf working with his Arab allies in Desert Storm, this should be easy.

[zornwil]

Re: Avenger/Justice League in the "real" world

 

I know some hate them' date=' but the classic "alien ends up adopting Earth as his new home" bit would work great. It lets you get an excuse for really advanced Tech, and the character in question often adopts the team as his or her new family which leads to some good cohesion.[/quote']

First, our superheroes are slowly becoming exactly an Avengers/Justice League sort of group. So it's an interesting evolution to watch, particularly as the PCs really are shaping this. It was the consequence of my (for the first time for me) setting up a "mutants vs non-mutants" kind of mentality in the world and having some heavy political stuff behind this. It seemed to encourage the PCs to "think big" and want to fix/bridge that gap. So their agenda is very much "global" in thinking, they are concerned not so much with whether some particular singular political philosophy is "better", they are concerned with making mankind (emphasis on "kind") live and work together. To do this, they are bit by bit stretching their wings and involving themselves in affairs to better the world. Interestingly, they've had plenty of arguments on just what that entails. They are strong advocates of free will and of not imposing power, in the end, so they are sort of being the opposite of what I understand the Authority to be. Instead, they work bit by bit, reaching out to organzations, and in the background.

 

Of course a big reason this works is that the personality types have some interesting tendencies that work towards this. There is a "mad scientist" type with an inner rage who has already (during the game in fact) had his inner demons overtake him briefly and seen the dark side; he has avowed to become a much "lighter" type and is working very hards towards reforming himself as much as what's around him. Personally, his political/philosophical background is very societally-oriented, too, and he enjoys the old pulp hereos and early superhero comic books.

 

There is a slimey nonhuman lifeform of indeterminate origin who is extremely affable and friendly. He is compelled to be social by his very nature. Of course he could have ended up with bad guys just as easily (he simply tends to emulate the sentients around him) but he didn't, and as such is a good guy in his ongoing education/training in the human world. So he doesn't force any sort of agenda, really, and tends to go along with the crowd, though his character/nature is towards a more open/societal view.

 

There's a mentalist who is more of the "normal" sort of heroes than the others, and she is from a very "good home" and all that and very integrated into society. She's a somewhat reluctant heroine in terms of combat and glory, but very much has a righteous indignation at evil and (particularly) injustice. She is a strong person on the law and what is right in terms of balancing power for the weak (the two sometimes collide of course) which makes her a very positive influence on the group.

 

There's an interesting character who is a robot programmed to help. There's a bit more of a backstory here but it's not time to get into that. The important thing in terms of being a "save the world" supergroup is that his very nature is to help and not to harm life as much as possible in helping - it's the basic Asimov Laws of Robotics.

 

Finally, and the reason I quoted Hermit's post, is that we do have the "alien who adopted Earth" but we've done it very much in reverse. The PC started as simply a mutant type with strange powers, but the player decided to take this in another direction as we progressed, one that seems to work very well. The PC had originally been a sort of enigma, someone not always acting predictably humane or straightforwardly moral and with many eccentricities but underlying this a very strong sense of wanting the world's various powers/interests balanced and ultimately for people to live free. The player figured finally that the character's past and strange attitudes are the result of the fact he is really an alien. So in-game he encountered this truth. He's already thought of himself as human, more or less, in the past, and his values tie him to Earth, but he is not human actually and his extreme intellect (>150, kind of similar to the mad scientist's, but the scientist boosts his INT to extreme levels and isn't naturally THAT extreme) is the result of that. The combo of his human-bred values, his discovery of not being human, and his extreme INT all breed him to be in the bottom line a very pro-mankind, pro-liberty sort of being, even though among the group he is the most devious and under-handed in how he executes this. It makes for good drama among the characters, too (a lot of "you did what?" and "you suggest we do WHAT?") moments.