Equipment Pools?

[Darkhope]

I was curious on how other GM's handled this. I don't like my players having to pay points for items that can be destroyed/stolen/traded away and losing the points. (i.e. Independant limitation) So I just use equipment pools. The characters are allowed to cary and weild items based on how powerful they are. The more points the total character the larger the power pool. I built it as

100pt Equipment Pool

20pt Control Pool (OAF-1

only change at base -1/2)

 

So they could have a 3D6 HKA AP+1 magical sword, 10PD/ED Full Plate, a Ring of Protection 5pd/ed forcefield IPE All +1, a Cloak of Displacement +5 DCV vs all attacks, and Rod of Lighting Blast which is a 8D6 EB AE 4" Line +1

 

Thats a total of 98pts filled into their Equipment Pool. The player wouldn't be able to put much more on his person unless it was a very small item (i.e. less than 2 real points)

 

Was just curious as to what other GM's thought of this type of playstyle.

[Mike W]

Re: Equipment Pools?

 

What level/type of campaign are you playing? Heroic level characters do not have to pay for equipment, supers do. Also, is this only one character using the pool or several?

[Darkhope]

Re: Equipment Pools?

 

all the players have a equipment pool. I gave it to them based on point total. Every 25 points = 5pt equipment pool. They started out as heoric i guess but through time and so much power its superheoric. Some of them still have the Normal Characteristic Maxima however.

 

EDIT: its fantasy genre, around 700 pts

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Equipment Pools?

 

The new 5E Dark Champions sourcebook introduced a new mechanic called Resource Pools which is very similar to what you propose, although broader. There's no real reason why it couldn't be applied to any other genre as the GM prefers. I'll quote the appropriate section from a review of DC by arcady, since he summarizes it better than I could:

 

These are used to manage equipment, contacts, and a number of related elements. This idea gives you a couple different point pools - equipment, bases, contacts, and misc. You get a value for what you have access to in an adventure, and a value for your total resources. The total resources is somewhat unlimited after start of game, but the on hand pool is governed by the GM and/or spending character points to increase it. Instead of buying resource items with character points or money you buy them with your resource pools. In some ways you could think of it as a Variable Power Point Pool that can only be changed out between adventures or via the actions of the character in the game (stealing a car for example).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Equipment Pools?

 

That's an interesting idea Darkhope. I'm not sure if I'd every use it, especially for a fantasy campaign. Then again, I can't conceive of 700 points character in a game where no one pays for equipment and is supposed to be normal (just what did they spend those points on anyway?).

[Darkhope]

Re: Equipment Pools?

 

Spending the points for some was very hard. The fighter based classes mainly I had problems with. But some of them have up to 200 points spent on followers, the clerics and wizard have 150pt power pools, One character is a vampire mage so he has nice stats, power pool, vampire power elemental control and multipower, skills/levels. One fighter is the race of LeShay. (like an ascended godlike Elf) So he has a racial multipower with dispel vs entangle, missle defelection/refelection only vs magic, telepathy, mind control and teleportation. One character is a psion, so she has a 120pt mental multipower and a elemental control of psionic defenses. No one in the party has over 200 pts in characteristics except the vampire. Most have the NCM and have paid double for points over 20. But theres only 2 with a stat above 20. a couple have a 5 speed. It's really not that outlandish or hard to picture if you compare them to the powerful people in the world. Remember its Fantasy based, D&D world with magic and special abilities. Even in the real world extreme skill can be turned into powers. A Navy Seal is a normal human worth about 4-500 points easy.

[The Hyborian]

Re: Equipment Pools?

 

A Navy Seal is a normal human worth about 4-500 points easy.

 

Wow.

 

Unless everyone in the SEALs has Genius level intellegence, the body of the greatest athleat in human history, and dozens of areas of skill foucs brought to up to world class mastery, no they dont cost that much.

 

Your "normals" are spending more on their stats than some supers do. Saying all but one are under 200 points in characteristics is like saying your car only goes 180mph. The point totals for the power frameworks that you are listing are staggering. A 5 speed is better than Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee smashed together into one little butt kicking body. By definition it is superhuman. Either you have the least effective character builds EVER, or you guys are playing cosmic level supers without knowing it. Im not sure Conan would cost 700 points, even you built the entire Army of Aquilonia as followers.

 

Now, Im not getting down on anything here. Your campaign is your campaign. If it works for you its none of my buisness. But these kind of numbers boggle the mind. Personally, I would make them pay for the gear out of points. If a 700 point fighter needs another 100 points in magic items to make it through the day, well, I cant image what they are going up agaist. Unless they are killing alien gods and knocking off ancient dragons 12 at a time, this seems a little over the top.

 

Just my $.02. Ignore at will.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Equipment Pools?

 

No one in the party has over 200 pts in characteristics except the vampire.

.....

Remember its Fantasy based, D&D world with magic and special abilities. Even in the real world extreme skill can be turned into powers. A Navy Seal is a normal human worth about 4-500 points easy.

I just checked the Hero System Besiary, and the Greater Vampire has under 200 points in Characteristics (216 with Normal Characteristic Maxima). Most character is a superhero campaign don't have more than 100-150 points spent on characteristics and they are superhuman.

 

I can understand the fanastic, even epic, but that's a LOT of points. Not saying it's a bad thing or that it doesn't work (if obviously does for you), it's just unusual, especially in the fantasy genre.

 

I have to disagree about the Navy Seal. I've built a fairly accurate one on less than 150, not counting equipment. I've seen a Superman write-up on less than 300 points and I doubt a Seal is more powerful. Then again, I also saw a write up of Superman on over 3000 points, so it's all in the keys of the calculator, so to speak.

[Tywyll]

Re: Equipment Pools?

 

I'm not sure those point values are out of line, if you are looking at something like the equivalent of a really high level DnD characters. I converted one of my friends 16th level characters to FH. Granted, the campaign used a lot of 3rd party material (things like buying fighting styles/special abilities with xp, PrCs and trading levels for racial templates) and the character came out to around 450 pts. His stats were still NCM and he only had two above 20 (body and ego). Some feats in DnD are really expensive powers when converted (depending on how you convert them of course). I know back in 3rd/4th ed a level in DnD was considered to be 15 pts, but I /really/ don't agree with a static level amount for characters in 3rd ed (at higher levels their power gain increase is exceptionally dramatic).

 

So it seems to me that this game is Epic level in comparison.

 

Granted, I agree that it would be a bit much for me, but not so over powered that I can't see where he's coming from.

 

Oh, and I disagree that a 5 speed is beyond Bruce Lee and Jachie Chan. I think it would be easy to ascribe a speed of 5 to either of them, possibly a 6. Just my opinion though.

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Equipment Pools?

 

The new 5E Dark Champions sourcebook introduced a new mechanic called Resource Pools which is very similar to what you propose' date=' although broader. There's no real reason why it couldn't be applied to any other genre as the GM prefers.[/quote']

 

Between the Super Skills and Resource Pools, Dark Champions is by far one of my better HERO investments, and I don't intend to run much in the way of DC campaigns.

[The Hyborian]

Re: Equipment Pools?

 

I'm not sure those point values are out of line' date=' if you are looking at something like the equivalent of a really high level DnD characters. [/quote']

Quite possible true, but that just points out that high level DnD characters are basically superheros, especially the spell casting classes. I once was invovled in a DnD episode where a 10th level wizard killed about 100 soldiers. It involved an narrow pass, a cloudkill spell, a couple of fireballs, a summoned elemental, and several pre-cast defensive spells. Admitedly, the wizard was more or less done for the day after that, but he flew in, droped all kinds of hot death on the enemy formation, and flew away mostly unharmed. And thats only 10th level. High level DnD characters are basically Demigods. As I said before, cosmic level supers.

 

Once again, I will reapeat my "But if it works for you, its ok by me" mantra.

 

Back to the topic of the thread, Resource Pools, they are an good idea for some genres. Sort of like James Bond popping down to Q branch early in the first act and seeing what gadgets they have for him this time out. But I still think that I would make these kind of charcters pay points for items, even if some sort of house rules had to be devised to support it. The casters are paying for their magic with points, the fighers should have to do the same for their magic items.

 

 

BTW, what level did you start at point wise Darkhope, and how long has it taken the characters to get to where they are?

[Darkhope]

Re: Equipment Pools?

 

Hmm.. First off I guess I was just raised differently on champions than you guys. Cause 400 points is NOT outrageous for a skilled normal. Bruce Lee has a 5 speed easy imo. I myself Have a 15 str according the the book on how much I can bench press. The stats aren't outrageous at 200 pts. In the big champions game thats been running for.... 15 years or so one character is 1900 points, Lady D ( D stands for Death). She has 700 pts in stats. That character started out at book 250 super hero. But back to topic.

 

These characers for years of in game life have been adventuring and developing skills and powers to help them survive. They have been to the abyss, fought demigods, other demi planes with mad wizards and psions. Seen powers that affected them serioulsy in the head like Cythulu stuff. So the fighter having a 15 ego and pre isn't outragous. Him having a 14 con and 18 str isn't ridiculous. A skilled swordsman and shield user he has a 14 dex, he's 6'4" and 250 pounds of muscle, a 14 body and 6pd/ed. Experienced combat veteran he is so he's got a 4 speed. He's got some battle scars so a 8 com. His body is used to pain and healing wounds so 4 pts in recover, 2 in endurance and 1 in stun. Theres 80 pts in stats for a normal fighter/navy seal. Seals have MASSIVE skills, levels and gear. Easily build one at 400 pts.

 

Now as for the FANTASY based D&D game. These guys have powers and abilities that must be addressed. The vampire mage has 240pts in stats and the ability to spend points on stats every game. If anyone has played World of Darkness: The Masquerade, they know vampires are incredibly powerful and limitless in potential. I would put Cain, the first vampire at 10,000 points easy. I think alot of people here look at disadvantages and limitations way to much as an excuse to make stuff cheaper. Take a plunge and crank up the points some. Your players will love it.

 

EDIT: I think this might make some more sense to some of you on the points of my game and why they are so high. I don't use the rule disads take away from point total. To me thats just ridiculous. Its a roleplaying game. Disads are your guide to how your character should be played. Its how you dish out exp on how well they played thier characters. You shouldn't reward them for picking out 150 pts in disads just so they can have a 300 pt character. And I dont use stupid limitations. Your only supposed to use limitations to define the power. If your playing a fire power super hero you can't use the limitation 'does not work in water -1/4'. I mean DUH HUH, its fire its not gonna work. Use common sense and realism and just make your characters and not worry about shrinking points. No where in any champions book does it say to stack on disads and limitations cause your normals can't go over 150 pts. Pshh.

[Tae Kwon Dan]

Re: Equipment Pools?

 

If the LeShay is anything like a D&D LeShay then it is an Epic level creature. Being in the Epic Level Handbook and all. So 700 points probably isn't that crazy go nuts.

[Darkhope]

Re: Equipment Pools?

 

Well he was actully just an elf fighter. But when I converted him to champions he was only 400 pts. lol Thats with a 80pt follower Griffon mount too. So I decided to make him an Ascended Elf, Leshay, to eat up the points. So now he's 880 which puts him on par with others. I just made 500exp in D&D = 1 exp in champions. Since he was lvl 31 at 440,000 that makes him 880pts. And he only has 231 in stats. Nothing outragous either, a 25 dex thats about it. But he's one of those dex based fighters, not str at a 13

[Darkhope]

Re: Equipment Pools?

 

I have to disagree about the Navy Seal. I've built a fairly accurate one on less than 150, not counting equipment. I've seen a Superman write-up on less than 300 points and I doubt a Seal is more powerful. Then again, I also saw a write up of Superman on over 3000 points, so it's all in the keys of the calculator, so to speak.

 

Dust Raven, just remembered this while making a sandwhich. You'd have to be NUTS to think Superman is built on 300 points. Dude he picked up a Techtonic plate! He flies from one side of the country to the other in seconds. He gets shot in the eye with cannons and smiles! I'de build Superman at 4000 points. Has a 300pt Variable Advantage Kryptonian multipower, a 60pt + Elemental control for Flight/defenses. Then a 200pt COSMIC power pool with limitation only to enhance his Krypton Powers. He's kicking like a natural 120 Str, 50 Dex, 12 speed, 30 Ego, etc... Superman is... well he's superman! 300 pts !?!!? your on crack !

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Equipment Pools?

 

The ad hominem attacks are a little excessive.

[GaryB]

Re: Equipment Pools?

 

Dust Raven' date=' just remembered this while making a sandwhich. You'd have to be NUTS to think Superman is built on 300 points. Dude he picked up a Techtonic plate! He flies from one side of the country to the other in seconds. He gets shot in the eye with cannons and smiles! I'de build Superman at 4000 points. Has a 300pt Variable Advantage Kryptonian multipower, a 60pt + Elemental control for Flight/defenses. Then a 200pt COSMIC power pool with limitation only to enhance his Krypton Powers. He's kicking like a natural 120 Str, 50 Dex, 12 speed, 30 Ego, etc... Superman is... well he's superman! 300 pts !?!!? your on crack ![/quote']

 

On Crack? No. People are just smarter with points when given limitations.

 

Dude he picked up a Techtonic plate!

With 100 Strength at maximum, and Pushing, you can do a great many feats. However, the Techtonic plate was due to the writer going nuts. The Superman of the Golden Age, and the Newer Breed of todays writers paint him in a more realistic light as to his abilities. He's still strong, but he's not world moving strong.

 

He flies from one side of the country to the other in seconds.

10" Flight, Megascaled. Easy to do.

 

He gets shot in the eye with cannons and smiles!

Cannon. Average of 4d6 RKA. With a good set of Armor 30/30, Cannon's still mean nothing. You're pretty much bullet proof at 12 rDEF as the larger guns may do 2d6 RKA.

 

Add in proper limitations, there is no need to spend something as uneeded as 4k points on ANYTHING save the most powerful beings.

 

With 350 points, you should be able to build anything within scale to a 0 point normal.

 

Of course...to each his own.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Equipment Pools?

 

Dust Raven' date=' just remembered this while making a sandwhich. You'd have to be NUTS to think Superman is built on 300 points. Dude he picked up a Techtonic plate! He flies from one side of the country to the other in seconds. He gets shot in the eye with cannons and smiles! I'de build Superman at 4000 points. Has a 300pt Variable Advantage Kryptonian multipower, a 60pt + Elemental control for Flight/defenses. Then a 200pt COSMIC power pool with limitation only to enhance his Krypton Powers. He's kicking like a natural 120 Str, 50 Dex, 12 speed, 30 Ego, etc... Superman is... well he's superman! 300 pts !?!!? your on crack ![/quote']

Not on crack, just reading a different era of comin than you. Superman didn't used to be able to do all those things, and when he does, he's often straining himself to do them. I know he doesn't have a 12 SPD, in any comic or source. He might have a Multipower speedster slot with extra SPD for performing quick actions, but there's too many times he just stands there and takes hit after hit without a chance to get in a shot of his one (and he is trying). I'm sure most of those villains wouldn't have a SPD of 12. And I've never seen him hit in the eye with a cannon, head maybe, but still. And perhaps my cannons don't do that much damage compared to what you use.

 

Nevertheless, Superman can be written up on 300 points. The current JLA Superman probably can't, but I think Clark from Smallville will definately fit under 400.

[Shocker]

Re: Equipment Pools?

 

"I myself Have a 15 str according the the book on how much I can bench press."

 

I don't mean to be contrary since I personally don't know you but as I read the STR chart 15 STR can lift 200 kg or 440 pounds. Now if you can BENCH 440 pounds you should be in the olympics, not gaming.

 

"If anyone has played World of Darkness: The Masquerade, they know vampires are incredibly powerful and limitless in potential."

 

Yet again...I hate to be contrary but I do Play WoD quite often. In WoD a Third Generation Vampire...that's one of Cain's grandchildren all of whom are supposed to be destroyed, can max out at a Strength of 10. As listed in the book a Strength of 10 can rip open a steel drum or lift about 1500 pounds which roughly equates to a Champions STR of 24-25. While this would be a lot in a Fantasy game IMO it would not burn up anything like 200 points for stats.

 

I agree with several other posters that it's your game so you can do what you want but I'd like to see one or two of these characters to see how they're built. I can understand building armies of Followers costing lots of points but sheesh!

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Equipment Pools?

 

I too would like to see some character posted. It might help clarify discrepancies among opinions of character builds.

[Constantine]

Re: Equipment Pools?

 

"If anyone has played World of Darkness: The Masquerade, they know vampires are incredibly powerful and limitless in potential."

 

Yet again...I hate to be contrary but I do Play WoD quite often. In WoD a Third Generation Vampire...that's one of Cain's grandchildren all of whom are supposed to be destroyed, can max out at a Strength of 10. As listed in the book a Strength of 10 can rip open a steel drum or lift about 1500 pounds which roughly equates to a Champions STR of 24-25. While this would be a lot in a Fantasy game IMO it would not burn up anything like 200 points for stats.

 

I agree with several other posters that it's your game so you can do what you want but I'd like to see one or two of these characters to see how they're built. I can understand building armies of Followers costing lots of points but sheesh!

 

True, that's a 10 strength, now add ten dots of potence to that. In fact, take their normal human max speed, and add 10 levels of celerity, 10 levels of fortitude, and all the tricks that elders seem to have, not to mention the presence, ego, and intelligence beings from before/during the beginning of history are likely to have, and you are talking 200 points of stats, easy. Remember, one of the 3rd generation elders (Ravnos) is seen taking a nuclear blast and surviving in official WOD history!!! 3rd generation vampires should never have character sheets, they are walking plot devices, and can do whatever the gamemaster needs them to do...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Equipment Pools?

 

Hello.

 

*DUCKS!*

 

Couple of interesting things about Superman. As originally written he couldn't fly (hence 'leaps tall buildings in a single bound') and could be wounded by artillery shells, and whilst I strongly disagree that 30 points of armour would let him smile at a 4d6 RKA, given the stun lottery, it would certainly let you ignore the Body damage. Mind you most artillery shells would do a lot more than 4d6 RKA...

 

(Also Batman originally carried a gun and killed people, but that is another story).

 

Everyone's take on what makes a character will be different, but, DarkHope, your character point levels are grossly in excess of the sorts of characters I would play, but if that is how you like it and your group all play the same way, well, no problemo.

 

I feel I must point out that human maximum characteristics across the board cost 162 points (or course if you are paying double for stuff outside normal maxima that couls explain the high characteristic costs)

 

Add in maximum running and swimming and you have somene who exceeds any 'real' human athlete: all for less than 175 points.

 

OK you'll need skills on top of that, but you'll be very hard pressed to exceed 250 points for anything resembling a realistic non-meta. You will pay more if you are paying points for equipment, but in most heroic campaigns, you don't.

 

Like I say though, we are not likely to be gaming together, so if it works for you and you enjoy playing those characters, that's cool.

 

Let's look at building Superman. Let us assume he is strong enough to actually lift the planet. Strength of 390 would do that, but that is way beyond what we've seen him do even at his strongest. From memory, in the movie, he didn't lift a tectonic plate, he stuck a huge rock in the San Andreas fault to stop the plates moving against each other. Pretty remarkable, but not 'benching continents'.

 

You suggest 120 STR. OK. Looking at reasonably proportional stats (nothing primary below 30. 80 pd and ed, 8 Spd etc I get about 600 points for characteristics. That is still way over what I'd say he's got but even so, most powerful on planet...OK.

 

So what then?

 

Damage resistant and hardened for his pd and ed, a decent VPP (HATE Vpps but there is so much contradictory history you'll need one.....) of maybe 100 points, cosmic, so 250 points there...enhanced senses, maybe 100 points, if you don't allow it in the VPP, 50 points for life support. Maybe 100 points on flight. Heat vision can definitely go in the VPP as can time travel and hyperflight.

 

Add in say 150 points of skills and...well you are struggling to top 1500 points, even if you were to go hog-wild and double the VPP pool size.

 

You can always spend more points, but you really do not need to in order to do practically anything from the films, comics or books and 70 years of different writers and approaches.

 

Anyway, equipment pools. Cool for (some) Superheroes, probably not bother for Fantasy Heroes. Any other questions?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Equipment Pools?

 

True' date=' that's a 10 strength, now add ten dots of potence to that. In fact, take their normal human max speed, and add 10 levels of celerity, 10 levels of fortitude, and all the tricks that elders seem to have, not to mention the presence, ego, and intelligence beings from before/during the beginning of history are likely to have, and you are talking 200 points of stats, easy. Remember, one of the 3rd generation elders (Ravnos) is seen taking a nuclear blast and surviving in official WOD history!!! 3rd generation vampires should never have character sheets, they are walking plot devices, and can do whatever the gamemaster needs them to do...[/quote']

 

....although I would be highly surprised if his character sheet supported the ability to survive a nuclear blast, should WoD ever stat one up, absent some deus ex type power 'survive nuclear blast'. I mean, its a small sun, y'know...

 

Actually by some tokens, I have survived nuclear blasts, simply by being far enough away, so it is doable....

 

You really can't rely to much on what they tell you, you know....

[Tae Kwon Dan]

Re: Equipment Pools?

 

I had quit buying WoD stuff at this point, but I could swear that the summoning of the Nuclear Elemental by the Technocracy was what finished Ravnos off. I remember the V:tM players being up in arms that the Mages dropped a Antedeluvian.

[Constantine]

Re: Equipment Pools?

 

I had quit buying WoD stuff at this point' date=' but I could swear that the summoning of the Nuclear Elemental by the Technocracy was what finished Ravnos off. I remember the V:tM players being up in arms that the Mages dropped a Antedeluvian.[/quote']

 

I believe that the nuclear detonation severly hurt Ravnos, and the Cathayans he was fighting were killed and/or escaped. At this point, the Cathayan that was keeping the cloud cover in place let it go, because she didn't have to worry about her comrades, and the orbital sats that were reflecting pure sunlight got through and fried him.