Seeking Magic Systems for the following Fantasy Settings

[TheQuestionMan]

Greeting HEROdom, I am seeking you Hero System Wisdom on Magic Systems for these Fantasy Settings.

 

The Denai Saga by David Gemmel

The Drenai Series ; Legend , The King Beyond the Gate , Waylander , Quest for Lost Heroes , Waylander II - In the Realm of the Wolf , The First

Chronicles of Druss the Legend, The Legend of Deathwalker , Winter Warriors , Waylander III - A Hero in the Shadows , White Wolf (new) , and The Swords of Night and Day (new) . ( all currently being reprinted in three book Compendiums as Drenai Tales 1 , 2 , and 3 . )

 

The Stones of Power Series ; Lion of Macedonia , Dark Prince , Ghost King , Last Sword of Power , Wolf in Shadow ( aka "The Jerusalem Man" ) , The Last Guardian , and Bloodstone .

 

The Rigante Series ; Sword in the Storm , Midnight Falcon , RavenHeart , and StormRider .

 

Other Books ; Knights of Dark Renown and Morningstar .

http://members.tripod.com/~Dace23/Gemmell.htm

http://www.davidgemmell.com/

http://www.dodgenet.com/~moonblossom/legendof.htm

 

 

The Black Company by Glen Cook (d20)

http://www.shout.net/~bburgner/blackco.html

 

The Khavren Romances by Steven Brust (None)

The Tales of Vlad Taltos by Steven Brust

The World of Drageara by Steven Brust

http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix/brust/

 

Chronicles of the King's Blades by Dave Duncan (None)

Tales of the King's Blades by Dave Duncan

The King's Daggers by Dave Duncan

http://www.daveduncan.com/books.html

 

Artesia: Adventures in the Known World by Mark Smylie (Fusion Light)

Artesia: The Known World Sourcebook by Mark Smylie

http://www.daradja.com/

http://www.angelfire.com/ar2/artesia/

 

Cheers

 

QM

[Curufea]

Re: Seeking Magic Systems for the following Fantasy Settings

 

It's times like these that I confess to reading more science fiction than fantasy. Mainly because it seems fantasy is inundated with slush publishing, which I don't want to wade through

 

I've not read any of those books - last fantasies I read were L.M.Bujold and G.R.R.Martin.

[Eosin]

Re: Seeking Magic Systems for the following Fantasy Settings

 

The Rigante & Denrai are simple systems but with some complex individual applications.

 

i.e. The Thirty or the Ravageing Crows

 

Most of the magic work is simple spirit form with some enhanced travel. The shaman/mage MIGHT also have a little combat ability while ghosting. Couple that with some "spirit sight" and you have 90% of both systems.

 

It has been too long since I read the Stones of Power to make any significant comments.

[MordeanGrey]

Re: Seeking Magic Systems for the following Fantasy Settings

 

Ironic timing.

 

I'm reading through the various David Gemmel series now, and a friend just picked up the d20 Sourcebook for the Black Company. That book is amazingly detailed with information about the Black Company and modifying the normal AD&D magic system to fit the style better. I would recommend buying it as a sourcebook, and using it to create your own versions for Fantasy Hero.

[Tywyll]

Re: Seeking Magic Systems for the following Fantasy Settings

 

Ironic timing.

 

I'm reading through the various David Gemmel series now, and a friend just picked up the d20 Sourcebook for the Black Company. That book is amazingly detailed with information about the Black Company and modifying the normal AD&D magic system to fit the style better. I would recommend buying it as a sourcebook, and using it to create your own versions for Fantasy Hero.

 

It doesn't so much modify the D&D magic system as it does away with it entirely and replaces it with something that fits the setting so very well. Granted, you couldn't really use it alongside a normal, high fantasy D&D character, but it works great within the mythos of the world.

 

And that source book is about the best d20 product to come out in the last two years I think. Its a wonderfully done job of how to handle a licence property. It would function great as a FH source book because it is so detailed.

[Savinien]

Re: Seeking Magic Systems for the following Fantasy Settings

 

Bump.

 

I'm trying to combine Blood Stone and the David Duncan King's Blades magic systems.

 

Anybody read them now and possibly have thoughts?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Seeking Magic Systems for the following Fantasy Settings

 

Greeting HEROdom, I am seeking you Hero System Wisdom on Magic Systems for these Fantasy Settings.

 

The Denai Saga by David Gemmel

The Drenai Series ; Legend , The King Beyond the Gate , Waylander , Quest for Lost Heroes , Waylander II - In the Realm of the Wolf , The First

Chronicles of Druss the Legend, The Legend of Deathwalker , Winter Warriors , Waylander III - A Hero in the Shadows , White Wolf (new) , and The Swords of Night and Day (new) . ( all currently being reprinted in three book Compendiums as Drenai Tales 1 , 2 , and 3 . )

 

The Stones of Power Series ; Lion of Macedonia , Dark Prince , Ghost King , Last Sword of Power , Wolf in Shadow ( aka "The Jerusalem Man" ) , The Last Guardian , and Bloodstone .

 

The Rigante Series ; Sword in the Storm , Midnight Falcon , RavenHeart , and StormRider .

 

Other Books ; Knights of Dark Renown and Morningstar .

http://members.tripod.com/~Dace23/Gemmell.htm

http://www.davidgemmell.com/

http://www.dodgenet.com/~moonblossom/legendof.htm

 

 

The Black Company by Glen Cook (d20)

http://www.shout.net/~bburgner/blackco.html

 

The Khavren Romances by Steven Brust (None)

The Tales of Vlad Taltos by Steven Brust

The World of Drageara by Steven Brust

http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix/brust/

 

Chronicles of the King's Blades by Dave Duncan (None)

Tales of the King's Blades by Dave Duncan

The King's Daggers by Dave Duncan

http://www.daveduncan.com/books.html

 

Artesia: Adventures in the Known World by Mark Smylie (Fusion Light)

Artesia: The Known World Sourcebook by Mark Smylie

http://www.daradja.com/

http://www.angelfire.com/ar2/artesia/

 

Cheers

 

QM

 

Well, as it happens, Duncan, Gemmel, and Brust are my favorite fantasy authors more or less in that order.

 

Having said that, none of them feature a magic system that I really care for per se from a gaming perspective, though I did really like the system behind A Man of His Word series by Dave Duncan.

 

 

Here are my initial thoughts on the matter...

 

 

The "magic" presented in Gemmels Drenai books and what I think of as the stripstrassi-verse are very strange. In many ways its much more like psionics, with some weird psi-tech devices / foci that awesomely magnify effects. Source users usually only seem to have a handful of abilities, so I'd probably handle it either w/ an EC based system or some other high-cost few ability approach.

 

The stripstrassi users...im not even 100% sure if literally ANYONE can use it or if a user needs some inborn trait as (its been years so pardon me if in error) I don't recall the books being super-clear on that point. But my leanings would be to encapsulate all of the effects of that magic into Independent items rather than as something paid for by specific people. I don't really consider it playable however since most of the abilities of stripstrassi are essentially reality hacks. They basically rewrite the setting at various fundamental levels.

 

The Rigante setting didnt have much of magic in it, and what it did have was very loosely defined. It really didnt seem much different from the magic in the other series -- particularly the Ironhand series. Actually, I think there were allusions that all of the series were somehow interrelated. OddHat would probably know.

 

I also recall another series you didnt mention...or maybe it was a one off...Echoes of the Great Song or something like that, which had a life-force based magic system.

 

 

The Kings Blades magic is more gameable, but unfortunately we havent seen enough of actual users of magic to draw many conclusions. As memory serves we've seen the 8 "elements" ritual based casters of the primary nation, the magic gadgetry of the secret police of the same nation, some weird necromantic ritualistic magics, the ritualistic battle magic of a militant order, and uh...oh yeah the aztecy beast form magic system which IIRC was empowered by items. So either way you slice it, magic in this setting is rarely directly castable in combat; it seems to work best via rituals, and investing vessels (people or items) with permanent / semi-permanent enchantments, The Blades themselves is really just a package deal w/ a configurable fighting style, some mild benefits like extra CON, LS: reduced sleep, a detect oriented around their ward, and a host of disadvantages. There are also some optional abilities that some Blades have like specialized Danger Sense and ability to keep going for a few minutes even when technically dead in pursuit of their mystically driven mandate to protect their ward.

 

 

The magic in Brust's series is also not very well defined. The Psionics aspect is more thoroughly detailed, and basically we know that there is a kind of codified McMagic provided by filtering chaos magic thru the Orb which is used by the general populace, who largely are unversed in the true nature of magic, and a much more powerful and dangerous kind of magic that relies on directly working with chaos energy practiced by the truly powerful and knowledgeable (though it is outlawed in later eras). Honestly, the way I would do it from a GAMIST perspective to have a playable system is via a VPP, with pool size limits derived from a Power Skill and a set list limitation, and provide a list of effects that are available via the Orb. Characters that wanted to work with the real thing can buy off the limitation, opening up their VPP to work with pure chaos stuff. However I would require all spells cast spontaneously in this fashion to take the Side Effect limitation; wizards could spend the time to research and develop "safe" versions but I would require some suitably long R&D time like 1 week per active point (Draegarens live for centuries anyway), and I would require a skill roll at the end to successfully create the spell -- failure means you start over. We've seen various kinds of casters in the various books and a close reading would probably provide ideas for various specific magic oriented skills, but it's been too long since I've read them to recall.

[Opal]

Re: Seeking Magic Systems for the following Fantasy Settings

 

Wow, I have never heard of any of those. I feel very un-nerdy.

 

 

I've noticed that magic in literature tends to fall in three broad categories:

 

A magic-wielder can do one or a few 'signature' things, fairly dependably. Much like a super-power, really. Easily done in Fantasy Hero.

 

All magic-wielders can do a couple of rather broadly-defined things, with some effort. The hero though, somehow thinks of 'new' (but, realy pretty obvious) things he can do based on those abilities, even though people have been using magic for eons. Doable, the hero's just built on more points, but it won't have the same feel as in the books.

 

Magic-wielders can do just about anything, but usually don't, unless the plot demands it. This last is hopeless, you might just as well use an established system and not worry about trying to model it - there's nothing to model. No matter how cool it may have seemed in the story, there is no system.

[Savinien]

Re: Seeking Magic Systems for the following Fantasy Settings

 

The Kings Blades magic is more gameable' date=' but unfortunately we havent seen enough of actual users of magic to draw many conclusions. As memory serves we've seen the 8 "elements" ritual based casters of the primary nation, the magic gadgetry of the secret police of the same nation, some weird necromantic ritualistic magics, the ritualistic battle magic of a militant order, and uh...oh yeah the aztecy beast form magic system which IIRC was empowered by items. So either way you slice it, magic in this setting is rarely directly castable in combat; it seems to work best via rituals, and investing vessels (people or items) with permanent / semi-permanent enchantments, The Blades themselves is really just a package deal w/ a configurable fighting style, some mild benefits like extra CON, LS: reduced sleep, a detect oriented around their ward, and a host of disadvantages. There are also some optional abilities that some Blades have like specialized Danger Sense and ability to keep going for a few minutes even when technically dead in pursuit of their mystically driven mandate to protect their ward. [/quote']

 

This is what I'm really interested in. So, if you can't cast spells during combat it isn't worth building? I'm not trying to offend you, but I'm curious in how this ritual magic might be modeled. it isn't even required to see it all written up, but a discussion would be awesome.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Seeking Magic Systems for the following Fantasy Settings

 

This is what I'm really interested in. So' date=' if you can't cast spells during combat it isn't worth building? I'm not trying to offend you, but I'm curious in how this ritual magic might be modeled. it isn't even required to see it all written up, but a discussion would be awesome.[/quote']

 

I said nothing of the sort ("that its not worth building"). I'm merely commenting that the magic systems presented don't seem to be combat oriented.

 

 

The two most direct ways to do "ritual" effects in Fantasy HERO are Extra Time and the appropriately named "Ritual" limitation. Window of Opportunity is also useful if you want a "stars are aligned" effect as well.

 

Of the magic systems I present on my own site, Magic Systems , the only one that really has a built in "ritual" feel to it is the Derwydda variant of Spellweaving. This is primarily because though I find long term casting models to be interesting from a conceptual point of view, my experience is very few players are as keen on them and such systems end up going unplayed.

[Savinien]

Re: Seeking Magic Systems for the following Fantasy Settings

 

I'm not necessarily looking at it from a playing perspective. I'm trying to nail down what IS known about it so I can detail it for a sword and sorcery/ Age of Reason type of game.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Seeking Magic Systems for the following Fantasy Settings

 

I'm not necessarily looking at it from a playing perspective. I'm trying to nail down what IS known about it so I can detail it for a sword and sorcery/ Age of Reason type of game.

 

Are there _specific_ questions you have? Why does some combination of the Extra Time, Window of Opportunity, and Ritual lims (plus the usual spell lims like incant and / or gesture and / or foci material components, etc) not cover it sufficiently for you? Be more forthcoming with what you want please.

[Savinien]

Re: Seeking Magic Systems for the following Fantasy Settings

 

It is probably the wrong place, but I don't want to talk about ths system game mechanically as much as nail down how the system works metaphysically.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Seeking Magic Systems for the following Fantasy Settings

 

Ah; Ok, I'm tracking now. We're coming from two different directions. I'm really not the right person to help with the metaphysical side of it; too much of a gear head.

 

 

What I recall about the blades is that they are invested with some or all of the "8 elements" the magic users of their nation use as part of the binding ritual (which culminates with the ward ramming a sword thru the would be Blade's chest) with a very specific intent {which mechanically sounds like a transform or even just background flavor}. That's about as much as I recall.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Seeking Magic Systems for the following Fantasy Settings

 

As an aside, for those who are wondering wth we're on about, The King's Blades series is written by Dave Duncan, a very under recognized and IMO brilliant author. There are three related trilogies of books dealing w/ the King's Blades -- Tales of the, Chronicles of the, and the King's Daggers (a more young adult leaning companion series). They're all pretty good; my personal faves are Paragon Lost and the Gilded Chain (the first book of the franchise). However, the King's Blades series isn't my favorite Duncan work; for me his best work is the classic Seventh Sword series and A Man of His Word series. They are hard to find, but if you get a chance to, read them.

[Guest Admiral C]

Re: Seeking Magic Systems for the following Fantasy Settings

 

As an aside' date=' for those who are wondering wth we're on about, The King's Blades series is written by Dave Duncan, a very under recognized and IMO brilliant author. There are three related trilogies of books dealing w/ the King's Blades -- Tales of the, Chronicles of the, and the King's Daggers (a more young adult leaning companion series). They're all pretty good; my personal faves are Paragon Lost and the Gilded Chain (the first book of the franchise). However, the King's Blades series isn't my favorite Duncan work; for me his best work is the classic Seventh Sword series and A Man of His Word series. They are hard to find, but if you get a chance to, read them.

 

I'll keep those recomendations in mind. I love Duncan's King Blades series. The idea of an ultra-elite cadre of super bodyguards has shown itself to me in subtle and not so subtle ways over the years to become annoying cliche and oftentimes two dimensional, especially presented in an RPG. But Duncan for some reason does a great job making is seem so real and believable.

 

I'd love to see a HERO write up the magic of Chivial, I agree it would make a for a great Swashbuckling Fantasy setting. I only have read Ravenheart of the Rigante series though and the others mentioned I have never read.

[Tungsten Shephard]

Re: Seeking Magic Systems for the following Fantasy Settings

 

VPP should do the work for the Black Company just emphasis the aspect of "theme" for your VPP powers. If you can remember the "Taken" were all theme based magic.

 

The ten that were taken....

* Soulcatcher

* The Limper

* The Howler

* Shapeshifter

* Stormbringer

* Bonegnasher

* The Hanged Man

* Nightcrawler

* Moonbiter

* The Faceless Man

 

Each of the ten had something in their magic ability that gave them their names. Then you can apply naming magic as suggested in Fantasy HERO p.268.

 

One other aspect to keep in mind. The Magic system used in Glen Cook's world was very very very powerful. Id also suggest you pick up a copy of The Black Company by Green Ronin publishing.

 

Green Ronin's Mythic Vistas: The Black Company Campaign Setting

(Green Ronin Publishing, 2004, ISBN 1-932442-38-3)

yeah its d20 but the information contained within is very valuable.