"So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

[Southern Cross]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

True enough,but I remember an old vampire story ("The Mysterious Stranger" I think it was called) where it was stated that anybody who had their arm gripped by a vampire would have a weakened arm that would be rarely (if ever) recovered from.So there IS precedent in the literature for having Superman vulnerable to vampiric strength.

[Catacomb]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

I think you missed my point though...Diana by her origin is pretty much as mystical a being as you can get' date=' and her fists don't do any more damage to Supes than to say, Captain Marvel. Yet, we have this badly applied "Vulnerability to Magic" thing. So I'm supposed to believe that being a vampire is somehow more magical than gaining sentience after the queen of the amazons breathes on a lump of clay?[/quote']

 

Thor's own attacks via fist would not count as magical damage to Superman either even though he is a god. Mjolnir, Dr Fate's blade, The Black Knight's sword all would IMO because the weapons themselves are mystical weapons meant to do mystical damage.

 

Superman DOES have a vulnerability to magic. Some writers have made this an actual detriment, some have made it a quirk. Unfortunately Superman is the single most inconsistantly written hero in all of comics so its hard to find any kind of solid ground to stand on when talking about this, but my view has always been that Supes originally had the magical weakness way back when he was juggling planets and it WAS a weakness back then so just leave it that way. The guy is ridiculously overpowered as it is so at least some writers try and make him beatable without having to break out some new planet-buster each issue.

[proditor]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Thor's own attacks via fist would not count as magical damage to Superman either even though he is a god. Mjolnir, Dr Fate's blade, The Black Knight's sword all would IMO because the weapons themselves are mystical weapons meant to do mystical damage.

 

Superman DOES have a vulnerability to magic. Some writers have made this an actual detriment, some have made it a quirk. Unfortunately Superman is the single most inconsistantly written hero in all of comics so its hard to find any kind of solid ground to stand on when talking about this, but my view has always been that Supes originally had the magical weakness way back when he was juggling planets and it WAS a weakness back then so just leave it that way. The guy is ridiculously overpowered as it is so at least some writers try and make him beatable without having to break out some new planet-buster each issue.

You do realize that he has also been MASSIVELY depowered since Crisis and that the "new power a week" Superman and juggling planets is a thing of the past right? Otherwise, wouldn't Thor be just as "ridiculously overpowered" by your definition?

 

EDIT: The most recent "Supes vulnerable to a vampire" arc was the -at best- execrable Byrne arc. And while I still like his art, he wouldn't know continuity if it smacked his butt and called him Sally. After all, they spent 5 years fixing Supes after his initial run post crisis.

[keithcurtis]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Catacomb has nailed the essence of why Superman would win. It has nothing to do with stats or powers, and everything to do with their position in their companies.

 

I'd like to add IMHO, it also has much to do with their place in the comic book mythology. I've said this before, and I'll say it again: Superman would win because that's what he does. He wins. He's the defintion of winner. It's his biggest power.

 

Keith "Sitting in the Kryptonian seats" Curtis

[TheImperialKhan]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

That tends to be true of any Superhero. Particularly in their own comic.

[Catacomb]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

You do realize that he has also been MASSIVELY depowered since Crisis and that the "new power a week" Superman and juggling planets is a thing of the past right? Otherwise' date=' wouldn't Thor be just as "ridiculously overpowered" by you definition?[/quote']

 

Believe it or not Thor has been consistantly the same level of power from the get go. He's rarely used anything 'new' and he can actually be hurt by many things that Superman can't(High velocity armor piercing slugs are an example...Thor's been shot), he needs to breathe, has never juggled a planet to my knowledge, and has been beaten down without the help of a convoluted storyline.

 

Yes I am also aware that Superman has been powered down but since day one he has had at the very least an aversion to magic and that, along with kryptonite are two of the things that have stayed consistant.

 

 

Now Thor also has 'levels' of power but again these never change regardless of the writer. He has "Thor knows he can take you so he's playing with kid gloves." which Superman also has. Then he has the "I say thee nay" level of power which you see quite often where he rathcets up the fight which Superman also has to a degree(But its wildly inconsistant.), and finally Thor has a level of power that he does have that is rarely tapped but it has been used on about five occasions.

 

The "I'm passed I say thee nay and have reached the, Ultron we would have words with thee its time to open a can of grade-a Asgardian whoopass." which is again consistant in its use. Its where Thor uses all of his power and has no fear for his opponents safety whatsoever, in fact, I would say he's trying to corpsify said opponent. On top of that you have two items which again have been through the years part of the storyline but Thor only uses them when he's hit that last stage. The gauntlets and the belt. Thanos got to see them, so did the Destroyer, and Surtur as well as the Celestials, and Mephisto got a taste as well. Again though the power levels are very consistant, almost gears in a Thor storyline and the writers seem to stick to the formula as far as his powers go, but Superman...mother of all I hold holy. He can go from being on an even footing with Lobo to utterly wiping him out in three panels in a span of less than ten ISSUES and there are no gears there, no explaination, no reasoning behind the souped up powers...maybe the yellow sun was just closer that day . Superman's powers just seem to fit the situation while Thor's powers have been pretty much the same since we first saw him.

 

If I'm wrong point that out but I totally disagree with the Thor is way overpowered comment just because of who's beat him(Hawkeye and gas arrows...'nuff said.) while Superman's powers just seem to fit whatever issue he's in.

[proditor]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

If I'm wrong point that out but I totally disagree with the Thor is way overpowered comment just because of who's beat him(Hawkeye and gas arrows...'nuff said.) while Superman's powers just seem to fit whatever issue he's in.

Oh, I'm actually a huge Thor fan, I have the run from Beta Ray Bill through the birth of a celestial.

 

His powers in general stay about the same, though now he tends to bounce bullets off his chest now (And you are 100% right, he used to make a shield by spinning his hammer when there was gunfire before). His strength fluctuates greatly though, and I don't just mean "Cursed by Hela Thor" vs. "Turned into a Frog by Loki" Thor, I mean every day Thor. I've seen him work to lift 100 tons, (Battling Mongoose) I've seen him strain to hold up a planetoid with a mass equivalent to Earth's (The birth of a celestial arc).

 

I like both of the characters, and I think they both have stabilized in terms of what powers they have, at least in the last 20 years, but it's the details of how powerful those powers ARE that is a PITA.

 

In the end though, ya root for who you like/think will pull it out. And as much as I like Thor, I think Big Blue is too much for him.

 

Back to the original discussion though....

 

Is it possible to give someone a "Does not work vs. Magic" and then break down the definition? Like magic meaning spells but necessarily a spork enchanted to make potato salad 3/day?

[David Blue]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Having just read (the brilliant) A League of One, starring Wonder Woman ...

 

Superman is still an unusually powerful character, only mildly less powerful than a god, and beyond Wonder Woman's power to do more than slow him down.

 

It would not even be possible for her to do that in a Champions game, as far as I can see. Starting with a sucker punch, or rather kick, she would accomplish exactly nothing in a Champions game.

 

I think you can be a perfectly good high powered magical character, as Wonder Woman is, as Thor is, and not be able to beat even the Superman of A League of One.

 

Sure, Thor should be tougher than Wonder Woman, but basically ... (bounce)

[Hermit]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58&page=1&pp=15

 

But... but Thor did so well in the polls.... *sniffle*

 

[OddHat]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Is it possible to give someone a "Does not work vs. Magic" and then break down the definition? Like magic meaning spells but necessarily a spork enchanted to make potato salad 3/day?

 

Sure it's possible, if not looking at the Superman question (or even if, depending on write-up).

 

Myself, I'd build a Superman clone with campaign max rPD and rED, hardened, 3/4 DR versus PD and ED, full Life Support, moderate Power Defense, no Mental Defense, Regeneration at 1 Body per Turn, and a very high CON, BOD, and EGO. He might also get innate Regeneration with Resurection, 1 Body per day, or that could just be written off as his genre package.

 

The Damage Reduction would not work on Magic SFX. Neither would the hardened advantage on his PD and ED, or his Power Defense. -1/2 limit for that in the DC verse.

 

AP or Penetrating magical attacks are a real threat, as are any sort of Magic NND, Magic based Drain, or high power raw magic attacks that can pass his PD and ED. Punches and Kicks from a magic based Captain Marvel or Wonder Woman might be a threat, but he still has that high PD and ED to protect him, and the CON and BOD to soak a lot of damage.

 

Just imo, natch.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Ah, I knew this would happen.

 

Both characters have wildly varied in power levels. Sometimes, bullets hurt Thor. Sometimes he survives hydrogen bombs without a scratch. Sometimes Supes can lift planets, sometimes he struggles with 70 ton weights (a few years ago--the WWIII story arc, a 70 ton satellite falls to Earth, and Supes has trouble keeping it from burning up in orbit). Both seem to have an "average" level of power, and I'd say they're pretty close to each other at that level. Each can ramp up to extreme levels of power, but they go in different directions at that point.

 

Superman gets faster and stronger. He stops holding back, and he doesn't really seem to have a ceiling on how fast or how strong he can get. I think Supes probably could pull off a lot of that Pre-Crisis stuff now. I don't really think he's any less powerful than he was. He just has to get mad now to do it.

Thor gets stronger to a point, and then he starts pulling out the nasty powers. He starts using that retributive strike, and the life-drains, and the god-juice. In effect, he starts using Omega Beams and other nasty crap.

 

All in all, it depends on the writer. Superman is probably built a bit better as far as straight-up "hit-you-fall-down" powers. Thor's better at pulling off jaw-dropping "WTF?" powers at his highest levels.

[Catacomb]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Ah, I knew this would happen.

 

Both characters have wildly varied in power levels. Sometimes, bullets hurt Thor. Sometimes he survives hydrogen bombs without a scratch.

 

I would like to point something out about this. Regular bullets have never 'hurt' him as I stated earlier. It has to be ramped up, some sort of armor piercing job to do the trick and most of the time he uses Mjolnir to block bullets as a reflection power to keep them from harming anyone else. I don't know exactly how the bomb thing would work either but again to split hairs its usually the shrapnel that gets Thor, not the concussive force or explosion. He can survive immense heat and cold (Not the sun like Superman) and has walked away from bombs in the past yes. That having been said though he seems to have a weakness to the AP type attacks, something that penetrates and makes him bleed so again its pretty consistant on that level.

[Southern Cross]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

So obviously Thor doesn't have hardened defenses.

[Starlord]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Photographic evidence?

[Catacomb]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

So obviously Thor doesn't have hardened defenses.

 

I'm actually breaking out the comics today to see if his lack of hardened defenses is only against objects like bullets and swords or if it extends to energy as well.

[Catacomb]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Photographic evidence?

 

Never liked that pic because in all fairness Superman should be able to lift Mjolnir...that's another thread though, and we've discussed it(About a year ago, can't find it though.).

[Woodside Kid]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

The problem is, there really isn't a way to stage this fight without seriously gutting Superman's powers (or, indeed, those of most of the DC A-list heroes). The difference between them is so great that every crossover in recent years has had to scale down the DC heroes' abilities in order to keep the conflicts from ending up in the "blink and you'll miss it" category.

 

Assuming you ignore the occasional hiccups both Thor and Superman have shown over the years, stick to the average power level they display (and if you go by the companies' own character guides published back in the 80s), the fight is a no-brainer. Marvel's guide gives Thor Class 100 strength; he can lift (press) in excess of 100 tons. How much over 100 tons is never stated, but, seeing as he's never been able to run rampant over the whole Marvel Universe, it's probably not all that much over. As for the Man of Steel, DC's guide (which, before you ask, had the John Byrne reboot taken into account) stated that "he could easily lift the weight of the Great Pyramid of Egypt, were it possible to do so without destroying the structure." (Yes, that's a direct quote.) The key word in that sentence is easily; it implies that such a weight (on the order of 6 million tons) is nowhere near Superman's limit. A few years ago I made a conservative guess that that weight was 10% of his limit; that would make Superman something on the order of half a million times as strong as Thor.

 

To me, that seemed to nail the lid shut on Thor's "superior battle skills." At that level, it's like asking the greatest martial artist in the world to stop a 5,000 ton freight train going 60mph; your skills ain't gonna matter one bit.

 

As for whether or not Mjolnir or Thor's innate magic would affect Superman more than a normal person, in all the years I've read Marvel I've never seen anything that would lead me to assume that was the case. The damage that Thor and/or his hammer does only seems to be related to how tough the object is; I don't recall seeing anything where a character took more damage due to a vulnerability to magic. (Then again, if the Earth X miniseries is valid, the Asgardians aren't magical at all. ) If I were running a DC vs. Marvel campaign, I woudn't give Superman any extra damage from a magic attack. Of course, given his power levels, it would have to be one hell of an attack to hurt him. To be perfectly honest, I would avoid the issue completely and not do a DC/Marvel campaign at all.

[Bazza]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Photographic evidence?

That picture still cracks me up.

[Starlord]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Never liked that pic because in all fairness Superman should be able to lift Mjolnir...that's another thread though' date=' and we've discussed it(About a year ago, can't find it though.).[/quote']

 

Awww, let's do it. I think you have to have a 'warrior-type' quality to lift it, which Supes doesn't have. Wonder Woman, maybe.

 

Still, it's just a joke pic.

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

The problem is, there really isn't a way to stage this fight without seriously gutting Superman's powers (or, indeed, those of most of the DC A-list heroes). The difference between them is so great that every crossover in recent years has had to scale down the DC heroes' abilities in order to keep the conflicts from ending up in the "blink and you'll miss it" category.

 

Assuming you ignore the occasional hiccups both Thor and Superman have shown over the years, stick to the average power level they display (and if you go by the companies' own character guides published back in the 80s), the fight is a no-brainer. Marvel's guide gives Thor Class 100 strength; he can lift (press) in excess of 100 tons.

 

(snipped rest)

 

Ah. You're an OHOTMU disciple. See, the problem with that guide is, well, it's friggen wrong. Completely. It's not even close to being correct. Marvel's people have as much as admitted it. Back on the old boads, several years ago, we had a quote from the guy who wrote the thing, that basically said that Marvel had given him an editorial decree to limit everybody to 100 tons, no matter what. Thor's lifted the St Louis Arch (and carried it behind him in flight), which is on the order of a million tons.

 

So basically, you have to decide if you want to use Marvel's "official" ruling on the subject, or if you want to look at what actually happens in the comics. You know, just like how the Democratic Republic of Korea is neither democratic, nor a republic.

[CBikle]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Ah. You're an OHOTMU disciple. See, the problem with that guide is, well, it's friggen wrong. Completely. It's not even close to being correct. Marvel's people have as much as admitted it. Back on the old boads, several years ago, we had a quote from the guy who wrote the thing, that basically said that Marvel had given him an editorial decree to limit everybody to 100 tons, no matter what. Thor's lifted the St Louis Arch (and carried it behind him in flight), which is on the order of a million tons.

 

So basically, you have to decide if you want to use Marvel's "official" ruling on the subject, or if you want to look at what actually happens in the comics. You know, just like how the Democratic Republic of Korea is neither democratic, nor a republic.

 

Gruenwald later said that, in hindsight, they should have classified it as an ESTIMATED strength level instead of making it absolute.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

OTOH, in the DC Heroes Role Playing game entitled Superman the Man of Steel, which is an extensive treatise on Superman (post crisis) his origins, powers, weaknesses, and villians, Superman is estimated to be able to lift 500,000 tons with out pushing himself.

 

In Champions terms that is a heck of a lot, 500ktons or about 120-125. I prefer the 1DC=1AP conversion for damage and effect related conversions (Energy Blast STR Darkness etc) which places Superman at about 125.

 

Thor would have 90-100 STR if I stated out his PC from the Marvel Superheroes game. Not bad and places him at the Grond, Durak and Ripper level. And if I converted him once again into DC Heroes he would have a STR of 18-20 or about as strong as Captain Marvel and stronger than Martian Manhunter and Wonder Woman.

 

Sorry to derail....

[keithcurtis]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

All "offiicial" lift amounts for comic characters are bogus. There are any number of examples where they conflict with the observed material. Comics are not an rpg. The needs of a story are far different from the needs of a game. I posit that you can only classify characters by relative strength.

Thor is stronger than Spider-Man

Hercules is stronger than Thor

An enraged Hulk is stronger than Hercules.

Nobody is stronger than Superman.

 

Keith "Stronger than Aunt May" Curtis

[GTAgamemaster]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Hey folks,

 

This is another side note but it goes back to people's reference to Kingdom Come. (If this has already been stated I apologize for adding to the clutter!)

 

I have seen where numerous folks talk about Superman's confrontation with Captain Marvel in Kingdom Come but what I want to talk about is where Superman and Wonder Woman are speaking aboard the space station and Supes is fiddling with Wonder Woman's sword and it cuts him. It is just a nick and thats all but he is cut and I presume it is a magic blade. It is not Excalibur or the Sword of Roland, Its not the Power Sword or the Star Sword but it is a magical sword and it can slice right through and make Supes bleed.

 

Now Mjolnir is an epic weapon!! It is defining weapon in the Marvel Universe. It is an artifact!! It is unique and awsomely powerful especially in the hands of Thor.

 

If the nick on his finger from a magical blade sometimes wielded by Wonder Woman can make him bleed then what does happen when he is hit by the full force of a hammer Strike deliverd by The Thunder God.

 

"So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..." I assume it hurts like hell and probably injures him....lets hope he took it on the arm or shoulder cause he was moving or blocking. If that be the case, then I think Superman has a fracture and he works harder to avoid contact and uses his many other gifts to best Thor.... the fight last several months and we the fans are incredibly entertained. (happy ending for us??)

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: "So, Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir..."

 

Ok, this whole "vulnerability to magic" thing has gotten completely out of hand. Look, there's one reason and one reason only that he has this so-called vulnerability: Mr. Mxyzptlk

 

Superman once was bulletproof. Then he was The Man of Steel. Then he was invulnerable. Problem with invulnerability-it's boring. He can't be hurt...so what if we can screw with him a little? Mxyptlk was the villain intended to offer weird challenges without having to throw a punch. If he wants to make Supes into a hedgehog, he can. "But he's invulnerable! He can't be harmed. and changing him into a hedgehog qualifies as harm," the fans point out. "Ah," say the writers, doffing their tap-dancing shoes, "but that invulnerability doesn't work against magic. He's vulnerable to magic." "Oh," note the mollified masses. "Ok, we get it." The writers exhale a sigh of relief, not realizing the monster they've unleashed, and go about exploring new colors for kryptonite.

 

That's it. End of story. In the old days (you know, before 1996) even mystical foes needed red sun radiation or kryptonite to cause actual harm. ("That viking warrior doesn't know it, but his magic sword has *gasp* red sun radiation!")

 

 

 

There. Now you may continue ranting.