How Much STR Do You Need...

[Black Rose]

... to lift yourself?

 

Now, before you start laughing, when I say "lift yourself", I mean lift yourself without having to worry about that nasty leverage thing. For those of you who say X-Men (and really, who among us hasn't?) when Mistique starts climbing up a wall-mounted pipe with her body parallel to the ground, she is showing off what I mean. How much Strength do you need to lift your body in all-but-complete defiance of gravity and inertia?

 

Now personally, I was thinking "enough Casual STR to lift your weight" but I'm not sure if that works. Alternately, I suppose I could go for some kind of Flight, only to allow for body suspension". Again, not really sure.

 

I'm working on this for two characters I'm converting (from an anime) and modding slightly: one is frighteningly strong, and needs to be able to "leap" 1 1/2" using only one arm, with another person sitting on his back; the other is a superbly-trained gymnast who hasn't actually shown this ability in the source material, but with some of the mods, it seems reasonable.

 

Help please?

[Sociotard]

Re: How Much STR Do You Need...

 

All you need to do is make a Str roll.

[HewhoisMatt]

Re: How Much STR Do You Need...

 

... to lift yourself?

 

Now, before you start laughing, when I say "lift yourself", I mean lift yourself without having to worry about that nasty leverage thing. For those of you who say X-Men (and really, who among us hasn't?) when Mistique starts climbing up a wall-mounted pipe with her body parallel to the ground, she is showing off what I mean. How much Strength do you need to lift your body in all-but-complete defiance of gravity and inertia?

 

Now personally, I was thinking "enough Casual STR to lift your weight" but I'm not sure if that works. Alternately, I suppose I could go for some kind of Flight, only to allow for body suspension". Again, not really sure.

 

I'm working on this for two characters I'm converting (from an anime) and modding slightly: one is frighteningly strong, and needs to be able to "leap" 1 1/2" using only one arm, with another person sitting on his back; the other is a superbly-trained gymnast who hasn't actually shown this ability in the source material, but with some of the mods, it seems reasonable.

 

Help please?

 

 

Enough casual STR and the right skills acrobatics, climbing etc etc. What the hero looks like when they do these things is up to you. The STR is not even required but I just think it sounds good.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: How Much STR Do You Need...

 

Well, let's look at this:

 

To do it with one hand is at -5 STR. So STR 15 (if I understand the suggestion correctly), which is what the gymanastics martial art suggested for a male gymnast to be able to support their own body weight on one hand.

 

If it's a lot tougher than is 'humanly' possible, because you're trying to support your entire weight without the leverage needed (which could be what you mean) I'd add 'you need casual STR' which would be 30. Less if they're lighter than average, of course.

[austenandrews]

Re: How Much STR Do You Need...

 

Cirque du Soliel played a show in town yesterday. I can tell you that many of the performers who did such tricks did not look anywhere near 15 STR (though a couple of them did). I give it an Acrobatics roll, and if I'm feeling really picky, maybe a 10 STR requirement. Maybe.

[gojira]

Re: How Much STR Do You Need...

 

I'm working on this for two characters I'm converting (from an anime) and modding slightly: one is frighteningly strong' date=' and needs to be able to "leap" 1 1/2" using only one arm, with another person sitting on his back; the other is a superbly-trained gymnast who hasn't actually shown this ability in the source material, but with some of the mods, it seems reasonable.[/quote']

LOL! Just curious: Ranma 1/2? I assume you are talking about Ranma and Ryöga. Considering your board name is "Black Rose", I'm guessing so.

 

Anywhoo, I'm not really sure, but I wouldn't do this as "normal" people, or using normal human maxima. Both Ranma and Ryöga are really, really strong when they need to be. They both can lift and throw huge boulders and chunks of ice. Ryöga can do martial arts leaps (scale maybe 6" to 10" or so) while hefting a boulder as big as he is. Even Akane can throw a chunk of ice as big as she is, and apparently one handed too. (I'm going by the manga here.) Ryöga might be STR 60, Ranma STR 50 and Akane STR 40. All with the special effect "Ki focused martial arts."

 

(Ice weighs a LOT. For Akane, I figured the small ice boulder she hucks might weigh around 1 - 2 tons. So figure about 30 STR to lift it, then 10 more STR to throw it 10" or so, as a roughly balaned object. Then I just made Ranma and Ryöga even stronger.)

 

I wouldn't worry too much about getting their strength down precisely, manga and anime are both highly cinematic. Some of this may be a power-boost to strengh in a multipower of some sort, with the special effect "must focus ki first" or some such.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How Much STR Do You Need...

 

Cirque du Soliel played a show in town yesterday. I can tell you that many of the performers who did such tricks did not look anywhere near 15 STR (though a couple of them did). I give it an Acrobatics roll' date=' and if I'm feeling really picky, maybe a 10 STR requirement. Maybe.[/quote']

 

I was going to mention Cirque, but you beat me to it...

 

When Varekai came through one of the local stage hands also happened to be at my wedding, his gift to us was passes to the show and a backstage tour .. the point of that story is we got to meet a few of the cast, They don't look nearly as strong on stage in costume as they do in person .. I'm betting the guy and gal we met could easily bench their own weight and then some. They were both SOLID muscle.

 

The trick to gymnasts is that their muscles are not built for dead-lifting like a body builders but for movement. Which means they show less bulk but can still lift quite a bit if they have some momentum to work with.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: How Much STR Do You Need...

 

Cirque du Soliel played a show in town yesterday. I can tell you that many of the performers who did such tricks did not look anywhere near 15 STR (though a couple of them did). I give it an Acrobatics roll' date=' and if I'm feeling really picky, maybe a 10 STR requirement. Maybe.[/quote']

 

That's 15 STR for a full grown man. For a female or boy you can get away with less; the key is full STR lift of twice youw own Bbody weight.

 

Considering 'Full STR lift' is 'I can make it move, just barely', I think that's about fair. (Incidently, by that scale, 15 STR isn't that exceptional).

[Black Rose]

Re: How Much STR Do You Need...

 

LOL! Just curious: Ranma 1/2? I assume you are talking about Ranma and Ryöga. Considering your board name is "Black Rose", I'm guessing so.

 

Anywhoo, I'm not really sure, but I wouldn't do this as "normal" people, or using normal human maxima. Both Ranma and Ryöga are really, really strong when they need to be. They both can lift and throw huge boulders and chunks of ice. Ryöga can do martial arts leaps (scale maybe 6" to 10" or so) while hefting a boulder as big as he is. Even Akane can throw a chunk of ice as big as she is, and apparently one handed too. (I'm going by the manga here.) Ryöga might be STR 60, Ranma STR 50 and Akane STR 40. All with the special effect "Ki focused martial arts."

 

(Ice weighs a LOT. For Akane, I figured the small ice boulder she hucks might weigh around 1 - 2 tons. So figure about 30 STR to lift it, then 10 more STR to throw it 10" or so, as a roughly balaned object. Then I just made Ranma and Ryöga even stronger.)

 

I wouldn't worry too much about getting their strength down precisely, manga and anime are both highly cinematic. Some of this may be a power-boost to strengh in a multipower of some sort, with the special effect "must focus ki first" or some such.

 

Actually it's Ryouga and Kodachi. You're right about the crazy levels of STR in Ranma 1/2; it gets silly after a while. I'm trying to focus on the early side of things, when it wasn't too weird; also, I'm a big believer in the "STR, only for 'pushing'" ability, and remembering that many feats of strength and skill are pushing the edges of their abilities... at least in the early volumes.

 

I have this Ranma 1/2 HERO document I found waaaay back in, like, '98 or '99, that actually set things pretty clearly IMO. It claims "This campaign uses by-the-book Hero 5th Ed rules, with a few minor changes.", but I think it was out well before FREd. If you take as a given that the people we're dealing with live in a normal world, even in they themselves are not, you get more mileage out of your points. Assume everyone around you, except for the various lunatic martial artists, are going to be Incompetant to Skilled Normals. The power level is pretty low (basic Heroic), and I really prefer a higher level of game play; not so much more power as more powers. Even at the Familiarity level, it amazes me the sheer number of skills you can give someone, especially one of the Nerima Wrecking Crew.

 

One of these days I should really get one of the characters fully written up and post it here for C&C....

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How Much STR Do You Need...

 

... to lift yourself?

 

Now, before you start laughing, when I say "lift yourself", I mean lift yourself without having to worry about that nasty leverage thing. For those of you who say X-Men (and really, who among us hasn't?) when Mistique starts climbing up a wall-mounted pipe with her body parallel to the ground, she is showing off what I mean. How much Strength do you need to lift your body in all-but-complete defiance of gravity and inertia?

 

Now personally, I was thinking "enough Casual STR to lift your weight" but I'm not sure if that works. Alternately, I suppose I could go for some kind of Flight, only to allow for body suspension". Again, not really sure.

 

I'd avoid the flight if you want this to be a pure feat of physical srength. To my way of thinking, Acrobatics or another balance skill could also reduce the STR required, but let's assume this is pure muscle power.

 

IIRC, a 10 STR means you can lift 100 kg (deemed to be human body weight), stagger a few feet and that's it. So 10 STR is not enough. A 15 STR should be enough to do this two handed (moving half maximum weight wuld be a bit encumbering, but not impossible to sustain for a reasonable period). Since one hand = -5 STR, that brings us to a 20 STR. Probably OK for Mystique - within the bounds of human, but at the high end.

[Dust Raven]

Re: How Much STR Do You Need...

 

After seeing several performers, such as those mentioned above plus many others, perform tricks like these (many perform in circuses), I'd have to say it's an application of the Acrobatics Skill, with a STR requirement of enough to lift twice the character's mass. A standard character standing 6'6" with a mass of 100 kg would need a 15 STR. A shorter, slimmer dancer/gymnist type with a mass of only 60 kg would only need a 12. For a more realistic application, I'd say enough STR to lift 2.5x or 3x their own mass though... for the trick of climbing parallel to the ground using only your hands puts all of your weight on the wrists... and you need to be quite strong to do that.

[austenandrews]

Re: How Much STR Do You Need...

 

If you're talking about climbing a pole with your body and arms horizontal using nothing but your hands, I'd agree a high STR is needed. I don't think I've ever seen that particular one done in real life. I've seen it done with one hand braced downward, which requires strength but not nearly as much.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How Much STR Do You Need...

 

If you're talking about climbing a pole with your body and arms horizontal using nothing but your hands' date=' I'd agree a high STR is needed. I don't think I've ever seen that particular one done in real life. I've seen it done with one hand braced downward, which requires strength but not nearly as much.[/quote']

 

I would agree with the 20-25 minimum STR range since a character with 10-15 STR and Clinging should be able to do most of what he describes for the same extra 10 points.

 

HM

[austenandrews]

Re: How Much STR Do You Need...

 

I would agree with the 20-25 minimum STR range since a character with 10-15 STR and Clinging should be able to do most of what he describes for the same extra 10 points.

 

HM

Actually, that's why in general I'd consider an Acrobatics roll to be sufficient. There are so many other circumstances in a comic-booky environment that would allow such an act without a minimum STR requirement. For instance I'd allow someone with "gravity boots" to stand horizontal on a wall with just Clinging. I wouldn't bother to calculate the STR of his ankles.

 

Sans an Acrobatics roll, though, I'd require a relatively high STR to pull off the trick.

[gojira]

Re: How Much STR Do You Need...

 

Actually it's Ryouga and Kodachi. You're right about the crazy levels of STR in Ranma 1/2; it gets silly after a while. I'm trying to focus on the early side of things' date=' when it wasn't [b']too[/b] weird; also, I'm a big believer in the "STR, only for 'pushing'" ability, and remembering that many feats of strength and skill are pushing the edges of their abilities... at least in the early volumes.

 

Well sorry for missing the mark then. I rather like the sillier stuff (the martial arts figure skating competition is hilarious) and since they all always seem to be really strong when they need to be, it didn't seem like they were pushing. (Plus, Shampoo is also hilarious and probably my favorite character, and she's REALLY strong.)

 

In the manga, Ryoga pulls his handspring stunt with Ranma on his back. It's Ryoga first fight with Ranma, as a matter of fact; Ryoga's introduction to the manga. I can't recall where he does this handspring trick with Kuno (or his sister) on his back, so I guess the mana and the anime are different.

 

Toodles.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How Much STR Do You Need...

 

Well, to do the walking up walls in defiance of gravity and inertia thing....

 

Clinging and extra running (equal to your normal running, only useable when moving vertically -1) would simulate the effect. I can see a shapeshifter being able to pull off clinging without much problem. The running means you don't have to slow down when you go up. If you wanted to make it into a skill, use RSR.

 

The problem is less one of strength than of having a decent point of attachment and really strong ankles. Someone who is STR 10 might have really strong ankles, and someone who is STR 30 might have comparatively weak ones.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How Much STR Do You Need...

 

The first question I would ask is, "How does it matter in terms of game mechanics?" If it turns out that it won't matter much at all, don't sweat it; it's part of the character's concept. This is basically the, "Whatever. It's Special Effects," attitude.

 

if it is likely to have game effect, I think how I would handle it would depend on the general feel of your game, whether it is herioc or superherioc, etc. The amazing acrobatics would depend entirely upon what the character want's to do with it, but could easily be handled with a few small Powers, skills, etc. Some ideas for the character who can jump with one arm are:

 

1. Leaping with the level of Indirect that allows you to choose different parts of your body for the Power's origin.
   
2. Dexterity, Strength, Acrobatics and/or Power skill rolls, with the difficulty depending on the level of realism in your campaign (in some cases it might be an extraordinary skill roll: -10, in some it might be handled like the Dive for Cover maneuver, and in some it might require a simple check with no modifiers).
   
3. I've never really liked jumping being based on Strength, but if you like this, I would say something like, "Well, you aren't using your base Leaping because you aren't using your legs. The jump has to be completely covered by your Strength," or, "Well, you aren't really jumping. You are actually throwing yourself. How far could you throw an object that has your weight (mass if we're on Earth)?"
   

[Black Rose]

Re: How Much STR Do You Need...

 

Well sorry for missing the mark then. I rather like the sillier stuff (the martial arts figure skating competition is hilarious) and since they all always seem to be really strong when they need to be, it didn't seem like they were pushing. (Plus, Shampoo is also hilarious and probably my favorite character, and she's REALLY strong.)

 

In the manga, Ryoga pulls his handspring stunt with Ranma on his back. It's Ryoga first fight with Ranma, as a matter of fact; Ryoga's introduction to the manga. I can't recall where he does this handspring trick with Kuno (or his sister) on his back, so I guess the mana and the anime are different.

 

Toodles.

 

No no, you're right about it being Ranma and Ryouga in the "push off with one hand" example. I meant that the other person I was working on was Kodachi. Frankly, I think the single most difficult person to write up is going to be Ranma; I'm seriously considering a Kick-Ass Martial Arts Moves VPP just to keep from pulling my hair out.

 

I also like the sillier stuff; frankly, Shampoo and her "Doors? Shampoo no need too too smelly doors!" approach to house entry is great. I just don't want to go "Okay, everyone is like a low to mid-range brick, with some speedster and blaster thrown in." It seems kinda cheap; besides, I like trying to figure out how to do up the moves in actual specific writeups.

 

As far as Pushing is concerned, HERO allows for some impressive Pushing, but it's more cinematic than Ranma-esque. I'm thinking more along the lines of, say:

 

+15 STR (15 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), Double Endurance Cost (-1/2), Requires An EGO Roll (No Active Point Penalty To Roll; -1/2). Active Cost: 15; Real Cost: 6.

 

Then you could perform an actual Push after that, if necessary.