Teleportation Usable As Attack

[fredrik_nilsson]

I have a question that I want to have your oppinion on. A NPC in my Champions campaign (Tachyon) has the following power:

 

Aportation: Teleportation 12", Ranged (+1/2), Usable As Attack (+1) (60 Active Points)

 

Would you allow this power to be used as a limited form of Telekinesis, and if you do what kind of Telekinesis would you allow?

 

For example, would you allow the press of a button?

[SirViss]

Re: Teleportation Usable As Attack

 

Could you give a few examples of what you mean by limited? That often changes from individual to individual.

[Blue]

Re: Teleportation Usable As Attack

 

So yer asking, can he, say, teleport a button further in on a console across the room? I'd say no. TK is relatively cheap. I'd make them buy that too.

 

If you were generous you could make it a "Power trick" and have them buy the power skill. I just know that if I had bought TK and someone else hadn't, but they could do TK things, I'd be a little irritated as a player. So as GM, I tend to make people pay for the powers.

[McCoy]

Re: Teleportation Usable As Attack

 

I don't think so. but could depend on the SX. Does he have the "must pass through intervening space" limitation? Then I might allow it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Teleportation Usable As Attack

 

I don't think so. but could depend on the SX. Does he have the "must pass through intervening space" limitation? Then I might allow it.

Agreed.

 

For the Power as shown, I probably wouldn't allow it at all, but that is just me. I like to see such potentially unbalancing Powers at least take a few mitigating Limitations.

 

Do you realize a TK which can be used to press a button can be bought for like 1 CP? Besides, if you really want a Movement Power that acts like TK, why not use Flight that is Usable as Attack? Flight moves things through space. Teleport places them at another point in space without movement.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Re: Teleportation Usable As Attack

 

Thanks for all your comments, they are of great help. In this specific case the guy with the power is a NPC, so I can just change (or add) the power. The main reason I asked was that the power (as presented) intrigued me.

 

How would you use the power?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Teleportation Usable As Attack

 

Thanks for all your comments, they are of great help. In this specific case the guy with the power is a NPC, so I can just change (or add) the power. The main reason I asked was that the power (as presented) intrigued me.

 

How would you use the power?

Oh. Right! Sorry about that! I rather missed it. Now that I know it's an NPC: just torch the PCs. A UBO Teleport should be enough to destroy the world. All good!

 

Seriously, if this is an enemy, and not a friendly NPC, I think I would probably use the Power most to pop the PCs into disadvantageous positions. Zoink them outside the building, over a cliff, into a jail cell (provided those things are nearby, of course). Hold your action, and bounce someone right in front of their friend when they charge you for a Move Through. Have them appear right in front of a speeding diesel or freight train.

 

Also, zap heavy objects over them (provided you have UBO bought to affect an appropriate mass). If they have physical ranged attacks, you might even use it as a limited kind of Missile Deflection, teleporting the projectile somewhere else (I wouldn't go too far with this one, as it shouldn't really simulate another Power, but if someone throws something at the character or something...).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Teleportation Usable As Attack

 

I have a question that I want to have your oppinion on. A NPC in my Champions campaign (Tachyon) has the following power:

 

Aportation: Teleportation 12", Ranged (+1/2), Usable As Attack (+1) (60 Active Points)

 

Would you allow this power to be used as a limited form of Telekinesis, and if you do what kind of Telekinesis would you allow?

 

For example, would you allow the press of a button?

 

As a form of limited TK... no. It just doesn't work that way. Teleportation is when you take something, make it disappear, and have it reappear someplace else. If you do that to a button it just reappears back to where you got it, and if it's had any affect on the machine the button was on, I'd say the machine is now broken because a button has just been teleported inside of it.

 

However, you can always teleport that screwdriver over there directly above the button so that it falls on the button, pushing it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Teleportation Usable As Attack

 

Thanks for all your comments, they are of great help. In this specific case the guy with the power is a NPC, so I can just change (or add) the power. The main reason I asked was that the power (as presented) intrigued me.

 

How would you use the power?

 

It looks like you're talking about Tachyon from the Champions genre book. I love that guy!

 

Personally, I've used this power best in conjunction with other villains. There are two general tactics here: Teleport a good guy into a disadvantagous possition (so that a villain can do something nasty and unexpected), or teleport a villain into an advantagous possition (behind a hero, onto higher ground, behind cover, etc.). It's great for setting up a target for an attack from a villain. Have a villain speedster run at full speed, but not aiming for a move through or anything, and have Tachyon teleport a hero directly in his path (the villain should expect this tactic or should receive some warning). Better yet, teleport the hero right in front of a hero speedster running at full speed (neither will expect and both take full damage!).

 

When he's solo, this becomes an ace in the hole power. It's great for getting someone out of his way (or into the way of something else). He can use it to teleport things closeby directly to him (like those jewels in that case 10" away over there). A great overall tactic to use in any fight is to take away a target's foci. When it's being teleported away, the target doesn't get to resist it, it's just gone (but it only works on accessible foci like guns, hats or sunglasses...nothing inaccessible like armor).

 

Of course, when he's back home or at the lab, Teleport UAA is a wonderful tool. He doesn't have to get up to grab a beer (so long as he can see it). He can teleport a piece of trash dirctly into the can, he can get that beeker of unstable liquid across the lab safely and he can play all kinds of practicle jokes on his family and coworkers (though I don't think that's actually Tachyon's style).

[McCoy]

Re: Teleportation Usable As Attack

 

Seriously, if this is an enemy, and not a friendly NPC, I think I would probably use the Power most to pop the PCs into disadvantageous positions. Zoink them outside the building, over a cliff, into a jail cell (provided those things are nearby, of course). Hold your action, and bounce someone right in front of their friend when they charge you for a Move Through. Have them appear right in front of a speeding diesel or freight train.

 

Also, zap heavy objects over them (provided you have UBO bought to affect an appropriate mass). If they have physical ranged attacks, you might even use it as a limited kind of Missile Deflection, teleporting the projectile somewhere else (I wouldn't go too far with this one, as it shouldn't really simulate another Power, but if someone throws something at the character or something...).

Rather than teleporting the projectile, teleport a PC to block it.

 

Team up with a gadgeteer, teleport PC's into individualy designed deathtraps.

 

Teleport non-fliers straight up.

 

Can the Brick swim? Only one way to find out.

 

Someone preforming a Move Through? Teleport them into a crowd of bystanders.

 

If your CV is high enough, teleport away accessible foci.

[Saxondog]

Re: Teleportation Usable As Attack

 

I had a character who used teleport as a weapon. Area effect, teleport, use as attack, etc... favorite trick was to teleport speedsters directly in front of a concrete wall as they whip along at top speed. Was also fond of teleporting bricks or martial artists directly away from him 20 or so inches, over and over, just as they got close. Just to annoy the crap out of them.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Teleportation Usable As Attack

 

...he can get that beeker of unstable liquid across the lab safely....

Unless he misses his attack roll and doesn't have that Advantage that gives you safe teleport. Then he might just put the beaker 2m in the air, or fuse it with the lab bench.

 

I had a character who used teleport as a weapon. Area effect' date=' teleport, use as attack, etc... favorite trick was to teleport speedsters directly in front of a concrete wall as they whip along at top speed....[/quote']

One of my big gripes with movement (see my Alternate Turn Modes thread, if you are feeling adventurous) is that this strategy wouldn't technically work (you can make it effective with a dramatic ruling as the GM, as I would do, but according to the system mechanics...) because Running has no Turn Mode, so as soon as you pop the speedster in front of the wall, (s)he can immediately and completely reverse direction.

 

EDIT: Without a dramatic ruling, in fact, you would technically have to Stun the target at the same time to cause him/her to run into the wall and take damage.

[nexus]

Re: Teleportation Usable As Attack

 

I generally let the Teleporter and the Speedster dex off (with the speedster at a penalty based on how surprised they are. My discretion, but the using the same trick over and over shouldn't work as well). Speedster can get some bonuses for cool stunts like running straight up the wall, but I like cinematic fights in superhero games.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Teleportation Usable As Attack

 

Unless he misses his attack roll and doesn't have that Advantage that gives you safe teleport. Then he might just put the beaker 2m in the air' date=' or fuse it with the lab bench. [/quote']

It wouldn't work like that. Without SBT, if you miss your attack roll, the object never moves. If you make your attack roll, it disappears and reappears up to the Teleport inches away from where it started. If that location is in LOS of the attacker, there are no further rolls needed. Only it would reappear someplace the attacker cannot see would there be a need for a blind teleport roll, because otherwise it's not a blind teleport.

 

 

One of my big gripes with movement (see my Alternate Turn Modes thread, if you are feeling adventurous) is that this strategy wouldn't technically work (you can make it effective with a dramatic ruling as the GM, as I would do, but according to the system mechanics...) because Running has no Turn Mode, so as soon as you pop the speedster in front of the wall, (s)he can immediately and completely reverse direction.

 

EDIT: Without a dramatic ruling, in fact, you would technically have to Stun the target at the same time to cause him/her to run into the wall and take damage.

 

Not necessarily. If you go by the strictest rules, yes the runner can just reverse direction, but the question is, will he react in time? When you are in charge of your movement, you can make decisions like this easily. You can run superast up to a wall, tag it, and turn around and run back without slowing down. However, when that wall just appears in your path you don't have the time to think about such moves. Suddely there is a wall there. At the start of your Phase, make a DEX roll (I use RMods as bonuses to this roll, but if the wall is less than 4" away, I impose a penalty of -1 per inch less than 4: -1 at 3", -2 at 2" etc.). If you make the roll, you can move normally, if you don't make the roll, you run into the wall.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Teleportation Usable As Attack

 

It wouldn't work like that. Without SBT' date=' if you miss your attack roll, the object never moves. If you make your attack roll, it disappears and reappears up to the Teleport inches away from where it started. If that location is in LOS of the attacker, there are no further rolls needed. Only it would reappear someplace the attacker cannot see would there be a need for a blind teleport roll, because otherwise it's not a blind teleport.[/quote']

Hmm. I guess so. When you Teleport or Leap, I guess it is up to the GM whether you have to make a roll to hit the target hex. I'd probably require it if the destination were further than the target's initial position (i.e. the final position is "harder" to hit). Seems a little different to teleport something other than yourself from a remote location to a remote location, than to just worry about where you are going to wind up when you Teleport yourself. Eh. I'd probably change my mind based upon the circumstances and importance of the action.

 

Not necessarily. If you go by the strictest rules, yes the runner can just reverse direction, but the question is, will he react in time? When you are in charge of your movement, you can make decisions like this easily. You can run superast up to a wall, tag it, and turn around and run back without slowing down. However, when that wall just appears in your path you don't have the time to think about such moves. Suddely there is a wall there. At the start of your Phase, make a DEX roll (I use RMods as bonuses to this roll, but if the wall is less than 4" away, I impose a penalty of -1 per inch less than 4: -1 at 3", -2 at 2" etc.). If you make the roll, you can move normally, if you don't make the roll, you run into the wall.

Which I consider to be, as I said, a dramatic ruling. There's nothing wrong with that (I do it all the time), but nothing in the basic system accounts for such a situation.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Teleportation Usable As Attack

 

Do you realize a TK which can be used to press a button can be bought for like 1 CP? Besides' date=' if you really want a Movement Power that acts like TK, why not use [i']Flight[/i] that is Usable as Attack? Flight moves things through space. Teleport places them at another point in space without movement.

 

 

Hmmn. 10 ACTIVE points.

 

0 for a STR of 0 or less (I'd never allow anyone to 'buy back' points by having a -9 STR: the minimum cost for any element of the power would be 0 and for the whole power 1) then 10 for fine manipulation.

 

Of course you could add all kinds of limitations. Maybe 'only to push THAT button -9'?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Teleportation Usable As Attack

 

Hmmn. 10 ACTIVE points.

 

0 for a STR of 0 or less (I'd never allow anyone to 'buy back' points by having a -9 STR: the minimum cost for any element of the power would be 0 and for the whole power 1) then 10 for fine manipulation.

 

Of course you could add all kinds of limitations. Maybe 'only to push THAT button -9'?

I don't think it takes Fine Manipulation just to smack a button. Would you need a finger to press a button? I mean, I guess it depends on what kind of button we are talking about. I was thinking of hitting the big red safety button at the gas station or something. Obviously you couldn't type at a keyboard without Fine Manipulation.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Teleportation Usable As Attack

 

Hmm. I guess so. When you Teleport or Leap' date=' I guess it is up to the GM whether you have to make a roll to hit the target hex. I'd probably require it if the destination were further than the target's initial position (i.e. the final position is "harder" to hit). Seems a little different to teleport something other than yourself from a remote location to a remote location, than to just worry about where you are going to wind up when you Teleport yourself. Eh. I'd probably change my mind based upon the circumstances and importance of the action. [/quote']

 

Yes, different, and twice as expensive. Normally you don't have to make an attack roll to hit yourself to teleport yourself, and you only have to make an attack roll to teleport yourself to a location you can't see. The same should apply to Teleport UAA, only because it's now an attack, you must make an attack roll to affect the target (but no other roll to put the target where you want it, unless you want to put it someplace you can't perceive).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Teleportation Usable As Attack

 

Hmmn. 10 ACTIVE points.

 

0 for a STR of 0 or less (I'd never allow anyone to 'buy back' points by having a -9 STR: the minimum cost for any element of the power would be 0 and for the whole power 1) then 10 for fine manipulation.

 

Of course you could add all kinds of limitations. Maybe 'only to push THAT button -9'?

 

You don't need Fine Manipulation to push a button, and you can type without it also. You will only be pushing one button a Phase, however, making things like typing very very slow (a SPD 4 character could only type about 8 wpm, averaging 5 letter words). Granted, you can't type in combat even at this speed without Fine Manipulation, but you can do so out of combat.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Teleportation Usable As Attack

 

You don't need Fine Manipulation to push a button' date=' and you can type without it also. You will only be pushing one button a Phase, however, making things like typing very very slow (a SPD 4 character could only type about 8 wpm, averaging 5 letter words). Granted, you can't type in combat even at this speed without Fine Manipulation, but you can do so out of combat.[/quote']

Hmm. I tend to think of TK without Fine Manipulation as what you could do if you didn't have fingers (and didn't have thumbs, for those of you who really want to insist they are not included under the general umbrella of "fingers"). If you think of it that way, I guess you could type at a keyboard very slowly. I might require Dex/attack rolls for accuracy if you were in a stressful situation.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Teleportation Usable As Attack

 

Hmm. I tend to think of TK without Fine Manipulation as what you could do if you didn't have fingers (and didn't have thumbs' date=' for those of you who really want to insist they are not included under the general umbrella of "fingers"). If you think of it that way, I [i']guess[/i] you could type at a keyboard very slowly. I might require Dex/attack rolls for accuracy if you were in a stressful situation.

 

I think of it as a pair of tongs or tweezers. You can pick up, turn, crush, toss, etc, but go ahead and type with a single pair of tongs... You can do all sorts of stuff though. You can still thread a needle, fit coins through a slot, push buttons, pull levers, etc.

 

With concentration, and sometimes multiple uses of TK, you can additionally pop open a can of soda or twist the cap off a bottle, operate the controls of a car, braid someone's hair, etc... Each of these will take an almost wasteful amount of time (and I wouldn't recomend making sudden turns in that TK car), and cost END for apply TK to each and every surface you need to move or keep from moving. Almost all of these activities you have no chance of performing in combat. There are even some questionable ones, like buttoning a shirt, tying a not (or untying one) that you just can't do at all.

 

Fine Manipulation allows you to do all of these tasks with a single use of TK and as single Actions rather than a Phase for each part of the action. You can also perform these actions in comat, and perform all of those delecate things that you can't without Fine Manipulation.

 

Now that I think of it, Fine Manipulation sounds over rated. I think the cost is appropriate though, but it's not needed for a lot of things, at least not in my opinion.

[zornwil]

Re: Teleportation Usable As Attack

 

To me, this depends on the character, and I would specifically interrogate CV levels and see if there's a "natural" balance based on that. We had a teleport-others character but he wasn't ranged, he had to touch the person. It worked fine, largely because he was a bit slower than most and not so DEXy, thus inhibiting the attack's abuse potential (this teleport moved people forward or back in time - to any extent - or into the PCs' prisoner hold).