Fine Manipulation

[Dust Raven]

I just reread Telekinesis and Fine Manipulation and found out that Fine Manipulastion isn't automatic. It requires a roll (9+(Active Points in TK/5)).

 

Does anyone enforce/use this rule? I typically don't, or if anything require a DEX Roll (or INT or EGO Roll if appropriate for the SFX), but even that is rare.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

I usually have them make either a Dex roll or an Ego roll depending on the SFX of their TK power.

 

However, with the advent of the 5th edition, that is no longer necesary with the inclusion of the Power skill. One simply buys the skill "TK" and base it on either Dex or Ego and away you go....

[pinecone]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

I never knew that...so...No I've never enforced it... I guess I may have indirectly by saying something like "That sounds complex/hard, make a roll"

[prestidigitator]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

I forgot about that too, but I'd have to say that whether or not I would require a roll would, like usual, depend on the circumstances. If it were a complex task executed in a stressful situation, I would probably require a roll. If it were relatively simple (like locking a door), or done in a non-stressful situation, I would likely skip it.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

I just had a thought. Would you allow a roll to do a similar thing if the TK didn't have Fine Manipulation? I might treat it like a Familiarity, or give the same roll with a -5 (hmm...and allow "partial" Fine Manipulation by increasing the roll by +1 per 2 points in the Adder?). Just some thoughts.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

Good question.

 

Off the top of my head, I'd probably say that without Fine Manipulation, certain tasks cannot be attempted in combat, but out of combat a Roll is required (which the character can take extra time to get a bonus on). With Fine Manipulation, no roll is required out of combat, but that roll must be made to perform the task in combat.

 

What the skill is is still up for debate. I don't much like the Active Points/5 idea though. I think of Active Points in a Power as being just that, power. Not skill. I'd rather use a Characteristic or Skill Roll. of some kind.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

What the skill is is still up for debate. I don't much like the Active Points/5 idea though. I think of Active Points in a Power as being just that' date=' power. Not skill. I'd rather use a Characteristic or Skill Roll. of some kind.[/quote']

Good point. Active points in TK is the strength, which isn't what you need for fine manipulation. Why should someone with 100 STR TK be able to play virtuoso violin from across the room better than someone with only 10 STR TK? Strength shouldn't be the issue.

 

(I'd probably ignore the roll in most cases anyway.)

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

Good point. Active points in TK is the strength, which isn't what you need for fine manipulation. Why should someone with 100 STR TK be able to play virtuoso violin from across the room better than someone with only 10 STR TK? Strength shouldn't be the issue.

 

 

Agreed!

 

Which is why I base it on the Power Skill. Buy that skill and call it Telekinesis manipulation, or whatever, and this is the skill you use when doing Fine Manipulation (of course, you still have to purchase the Fine Manipulation adder in the TK power to use it in this fashion!)

I've always ignored that Active/5 rule. It just seems silly to me.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

Agreed!

 

Which is why I base it on the Power Skill. Buy that skill and call it Telekinesis manipulation, or whatever, and this is the skill you use when doing Fine Manipulation (of course, you still have to purchase the Fine Manipulation adder in the TK power to use it in this fashion!)

I've always ignored that Active/5 rule. It just seems silly to me.

 

I think a default DEX or other characteristic roll is better. I don't see why a character would need to pay for his Fine Manipulation twice.

 

Of course, if he wants to perform a particular Skill with his TK, whatever Skill he's using should be the roll (such as PS: Violinist, Disguise, Demolitions, etc).

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

The more I think about it, the more I think that Fine Manipulation is overpriced. TK is based on the cost of ranged strength. Normal strength has "fine manipulation" for free. Yes, I understand that ranged TKFM is a somewhat different thing. I'm thinking of house-ruling than there is no FM adder; buy a Power Skill for FM *instead*. It's three points, and based on EGO or DEX, depending on the source of the TK. If you buy it up to a really high level, say 20-, then you *can* play virtuoso violin from across the room.

 

Why you'd want to, I don't know.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

My rule-of-thumb:

 

Without Fine Manipulation, you can perform anything "an infinitely flat, infinitely flexible 2x4" could do without turning it. So you could hit the stereotypical "big button", but if you try to type on a keyboard you'll hit multiple keys. It's an imperfect but workable standard for me I've used for several years. It allows for Strike damage (slapping them with the board), Grabs (wrapping it around them), disarms, and most other generic tricks.

 

With Fine Manipulation -- you can do anything you could do with a hand, but you're still subject to any penalties or skill roll the hand would be subject to. In particular, I sometimes feel it is appropriate to enforce a ranged penalty, or to require a characteristic check if "feedback" is part of the skill -- although I void the later if the character buys "ranged touch" to represent the TK being able to give the feedback information.

 

So if you're using TK to disarm a bomb, you still have to make the Demolitions check. If I feel that the inability to feel what you're touching is a problem, there's either going to be a penalty to that check -- or a Power skill roll if there isn't an applicable skill.

[lemming]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

Good point. Active points in TK is the strength, which isn't what you need for fine manipulation. Why should someone with 100 STR TK be able to play virtuoso violin from across the room better than someone with only 10 STR TK? Strength shouldn't be the issue.

 

(I'd probably ignore the roll in most cases anyway.)

Much more comfortable with a Dex roll or Power Skill (player's choice) than basing it on points in TK.

Might penalize based on range, but unless it's something complicated I'd hand wave in most cases.

[Black Rose]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

The idea that more TK STR makes you better able to control it seems... odd. Could be me, but more power behind your actions ought to lead to less control, not more.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

My rule-of-thumb:

 

Without Fine Manipulation, you can perform anything "an infinitely flat, infinitely flexible 2x4" could do without turning it. So you could hit the stereotypical "big button", but if you try to type on a keyboard you'll hit multiple keys. It's an imperfect but workable standard for me I've used for several years. It allows for Strike damage (slapping them with the board), Grabs (wrapping it around them), disarms, and most other generic tricks.

I definately see this differently. Basic TK for me is just moving things. Doesn't matter how small, delecate, or whatever. The trick is doing complicated tasks, ones that require several motions to accomplish. Take playing the piano for example. You can push any key, but you can't play chords, and you probably can't push the keys fast enough to even play a simple song (not even Chopsticks). You could thead a needle, and even go and poke that threaded needle through some fabric, but actually making a stitch is beyond TK's ability. You could take a piece of chalk and draw a line on the blackboard, maybe even play tic-tac-toe, but to write your name you'd need Find Manipulation.

 

With Fine Manipulation -- you can do anything you could do with a hand, but you're still subject to any penalties or skill roll the hand would be subject to. In particular, I sometimes feel it is appropriate to enforce a ranged penalty, or to require a characteristic check if "feedback" is part of the skill -- although I void the later if the character buys "ranged touch" to represent the TK being able to give the feedback information.

 

So if you're using TK to disarm a bomb, you still have to make the Demolitions check. If I feel that the inability to feel what you're touching is a problem, there's either going to be a penalty to that check -- or a Power skill roll if there isn't an applicable skill.

 

Agreed on all acounts here. It's something I have to remind some players of when using TK. Somethings you can automatically sense, like the weight or resistance of an object when you try to move it. You can't necessarily tell if something is vibrating, and knowing it's temperature is not possible.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

FM as an adder is not there to make things difficult for the high-powered mob but to limit the utility for the low-power mob: having a 10 STR TK is of limited use without the FM - at least this way it costs a bit more.

 

I wouldn't let Power Skill substitute for FM except on a very occasional basis. Power skill seems to be used far more than (I believe) it should be.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

FM as an adder is not there to make things difficult for the high-powered mob but to limit the utility for the low-power mob: having a 10 STR TK is of limited use without the FM - at least this way it costs a bit more.

 

Limited to who? You can still open doors with it, grab a beer, tap a shoulder, pass notes in class, have an extra pair of "hands" when accomplishing nearly any simple task, and intimidate the bully by lifting him three feet off the ground from across the room. Granted, I doubt anyone will beat up Mechanon withit... but I would never say it's of limited use.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

The idea that more TK STR makes you better able to control it seems... odd. Could be me' date=' but more power behind your actions ought to lead to less control, not more.[/quote']

I think this is more of a cost issue than a realism one ("I spent 30 points on my TK, including Fine Manipulation, but I can't even type a letter with it?! I need to spend another 3 points?!").

[prestidigitator]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

Limited to who? You can still open doors with it' date=' grab a beer, tap a shoulder, pass notes in class, have an extra pair of "hands" when accomplishing nearly any simple task, and intimidate the bully by lifting him three feet off the ground from across the room. Granted, I doubt anyone will beat up Mechanon withit... but I would never say it's of limited use.[/quote']

Agreed. TK actually feels incredibly under-priced for a Heroic game. But then again, so does Flight, and so does.... I'm not sure how to solve the problem. Minimum Cost basically requires you to buy a powerful version of the Power, which isn't right. Charging an inital connection cost for Powers that actually doesn't give you anything doesn't seem right (and could get ridiculous). Obviously there are campaign restrictions on how you can buy Powers in this kind of game, but costs also seem to need some kind of work.

[schir1964]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

Just A Suggestion

 

Why not make a Talent that simply grants the Character normal use with TK. If he can do it with his own hands, he can do it with TK.

 

Just An Idea

 

- Christopher Mullins

[prestidigitator]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

Just A Suggestion

 

Why not make a Talent that simply grants the Character normal use with TK. If he can do it with his own hands, he can do it with TK.

 

Just An Idea

Because Talents are built as Powers now, and what Power are you going to base it on other than itself....

[schir1964]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

Because Talents are built as Powers now' date=' and what Power are you going to base it on other than itself.... [/quote']

Actually, Talents are based on Skills, Perqs, Powers, and/or Disadvantages. So the GM can do pretty much whatever he wants with Talents. By making a Talent the GM can decide exactly how much such an ability is worth.

 

The whole point of the suggestion was to offer one more option for those whom seem to run out of ideas otherwise.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[JmOz]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

On the original question:

 

I only use it in "High Stress" situations.

 

If TK Man wants to type his article by TK, or pop a beer, that's cool, if he wants to disarm the bomb when he only has 30 seconds then dex or ego or int rolls will be being made

[Dust Raven]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

I think this is more of a cost issue than a realism one ("I spent 30 points on my TK' date=' including Fine Manipulation, but I can't even type a letter with it?! I need to spend [i']another[/i] 3 points?!").

 

Which is why I never charge additional for control of Fine Manipulation. You buy it, you have it. You want to use it under stress (i.e. combat), then you have to make a Char Roll.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

Agreed. TK actually feels incredibly under-priced for a Heroic game. But then again' date=' so does Flight, and so does.... I'm not sure how to solve the problem. Minimum Cost basically requires you to buy a powerful version of the Power, which isn't right. Charging an inital connection cost for Powers that actually doesn't give you anything doesn't seem right (and could get ridiculous). Obviously there are campaign restrictions on [i']how[/i] you can buy Powers in this kind of game, but costs also seem to need some kind of work.

 

In one of the many heroic level games I worked up but never ran, I came up with a Talent called Psion. I based it loosely on a Perk, as it didn't actually do anything, other than act as the minimum cost of any Power that was defined as being psionic. It cost 10 points. With it a character could then spend 3 points for TK STR 2 and he didn't look unbalanced in cost for being able to lift 50 lb pound of flour and toss it a short distance.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fine Manipulation

 

Limited to who? You can still open doors with it' date=' grab a beer, tap a shoulder, pass notes in class, have an extra pair of "hands" when accomplishing nearly any simple task, and intimidate the bully by lifting him three feet off the ground from across the room. Granted, I doubt anyone will beat up Mechanon withit... but I would never say it's of limited use.[/quote']

 

Maybe I play up the difference between TK with and without FM more: you can grab or hit something, fine. I basically treat TK as if you had no hands, and FM sticks the hands on. If you want to pick up a key from across the room with (non-FM) TK, you need a roll or you drop it. The beer you could grab, but you'd likely spill it. You'd have no problem intimidating the bully by picking him up and shaking him, but if you wanted to be subtle and undo his pants so his trousers fall down and he's humuliated you definitely need FM. TK will always be noticed if you use it on someone's clothing - FMTK, with a decent roll, wont'. I basically treat non-FM TK as always needing an attack roll: it is not subtle. I'm not saying that low str TK is no use, I'm saying that the reason that you'd (generally) wasnt to buy low str TK would be to use it in a delicate way, and so you'd want FM and having it as a (quite) expensive adder prevents the sort of monkey business you get with 1 STR TK for 1 point - the way I play it that would be virtually useless without FM. You may do it differently, but I wouldn't recommend it: FM is worth 10 points, which isn't chicken feed: it SHOULD be worth that if you use it in your game, which mena that base TK has to be clumsy.