Impossible to abuse / Absolute Balance challenge.

[OddHat]

We've all heard how almost everything in Hero is completely unbalanced or terminally prone to hideous abuse, often followed by examples that assume the GM is dim, drunk, or mad. So, fellow Herophiles, a challenge. With no house rules, and no assumptions of sanity on the part of the GM, please:

 

1) List any skill, characteristic, maneuver, or power that could not possibly under any circumstances or in any combination become abusive or unbalancing.

 

2) Find some way to "prove" that a previously listed item is abusive and unbalancing, and list a rules fix that does not require the GM to exercise his own judgment.

 

So, what in hero is perfectly balanced and absolutely abuse proof?

 

[tesuji]

Re: Impossible to abuse / Absolute Balance challenge.

 

the value, usefulness, impact or "power" of any trait is absolutely linked to the specific challenges presented to the character and the gravity of those challenges.

 

so once you throw "under any circumstances" etc into the mix, your notion loses all meaning.

 

"1" gliding OAF parachute" is worth far more than "200d6 Eb NND AOE indestructable ray gun" when the circumstances are "your normal cop have just been tossed out an airplane at 5000 ft" for instance.

[OddHat]

Re: Impossible to abuse / Absolute Balance challenge.

 

the value, usefulness, impact or "power" of any trait is absolutely linked to the specific challenges presented to the character and the gravity of those challenges.

 

so once you throw "under any circumstances" etc into the mix, your notion loses all meaning.

 

Bingo. Amazing how many rules discussions on this board ignore that, eh?

[Fox1]

Re: Impossible to abuse / Absolute Balance challenge.

 

Bingo. Amazing how many rules discussions on this board ignore that' date=' eh? [/quote']

 

Not so amazing if you've hung out on gaming boards for a while. Sad perhaps...

[schir1964]

Re: Impossible to abuse / Absolute Balance challenge.

 

With no house rules' date=' and no assumptions of sanity on the part of the GM, please:[/quote']

Normally, this challenge would be impossible, but with the stipulation above and the further clarification in number two below, the challenge can be met.

 

Based on the stipulation, all portions of the rules that contain Caution Signs and Stop Signs may not be used at all, since by default, they require the GM to exercise his own judgement. This makes things much easier, since all Frameworks and Talents can't be used at all or in any combination with anything else.

 

1) List any skill' date=' characteristic, maneuver, or power that could not possibly under any circumstances or in any combination become abusive or unbalancing.[/quote']

Skills: Most non-combat related skills are balanced.

Powers: Clinging (Per the rules only), Energy Blast.

 

2) Find some way to "prove" that a previously listed item is abusive and unbalancing' date=' and list a rules fix that does not require the GM to exercise his own judgment.[/quote']

Not sure that the second item is referring to the first item information. I'll presume it doesn't since that would imply a paradox in the suggested challenge.

 

Powers: Drain vs Power Mechanic. Drain vs Power Mechanic affects an infinite number of SFX. Since there is a finite number of Power Mechanics, Drain can be purchased multiple times and cover All Possible SFX with a finite number of points. Add on Area effect and Personal Immunity if you want. Link them so they all must go off together or not at all if you want.

 

Fix: Drain affects one SFX by default. Advantages are required to expand the number of SFX affected.

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Ki-rin]

Re: Impossible to abuse / Absolute Balance challenge.

 

Let's see someone abuse Com...

[Zed-F]

Re: Impossible to abuse / Absolute Balance challenge.

 

Nah. Anything can be abused, everything requires GM monitoring.

 

Buy persuade up to 27-. You can convince anyone of anything, no matter how absurd, with a 99.5% chance of success, more if you take extra time. Ergo, skills are not balanced.

 

COM: Com adds to your PRE attacks, especially if you buy it negative. I'll take -200 COM, that gives me an effective PRE of 100 for making PRE attacks. Watch everyone run in fear the moment my character walks in the room. Ergo, COM is unbalanced.

 

Clinging: Add damage shield. With a high STR character. And 1000 extra limbs and stretching if you're feeling really evil. Look ma, I grabbed everyone in the entire scene at once, and I didn't even need to spend a phase to do it!

[OddHat]

Re: Impossible to abuse / Absolute Balance challenge.

 

Nah. Anything can be abused, everything requires GM monitoring.

 

Buy persuade up to 27-. You can convince anyone of anything, no matter how absurd, with a 99.5% chance of success, more if you take extra time. Ergo, skills are not balanced.

 

COM: Com adds to your PRE attacks, especially if you buy it negative. I'll take -200 COM, that gives me an effective PRE of 100 for making PRE attacks. Watch everyone run in fear the moment my character walks in the room. Ergo, COM is unbalanced.

 

Clinging: Add damage shield. With a high STR character. And 1000 extra limbs and stretching if you're feeling really evil. Look ma, I grabbed everyone in the entire scene at once, and I didn't even need to spend a phase to do it!

 

Well done.

[schir1964]

Re: Impossible to abuse / Absolute Balance challenge.

 

Obviously, I didn't get across what I was saying. Anything can be non-abusive since there will always be a counter of equal measure to oppose it, per the rules.

 

Buy persuade up to 27-. You can convince anyone of anything' date=' no matter how absurd, with a 99.5% chance of success, more if you take extra time.[/quote']

Obviously, to evaluate this properly, it needs to be compared against someone who has a comparable (not equal) increase in thier Presence stat, which by the rules, would be used to counter the effect. Therefore, you won't have a 99.5% chance of success. Therefore, non-abusive.

 

Clinging: Add damage shield. With a high STR character. And 1000 extra limbs and stretching if you're feeling really evil. Look ma' date=' I grabbed everyone in the entire scene at once, and I didn't even need to spend a phase to do it![/quote']

Please reread the posts above. All rules with Caution Signs and Stop Signs can't be used, since they require GM's judgment to allow. And since Damage Shield is a Caution/Stop Sign advantage, it can't be used. So you'r example is invalidated by the rules of the challenge.

 

And again, against someone who has a comparable increase in DEX, non-abusive. My statement stands. Clinging per the rules of the challenge and the rules of the book, is non-abusive.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Solomon]

Re: Impossible to abuse / Absolute Balance challenge.

 

...often followed by examples that assume the GM is dim' date=' drunk, or mad.[/quote']

 

Aren't most GMs like that?

[schir1964]

Re: Impossible to abuse / Absolute Balance challenge.

 

Aren't most GMs like that?

I thought it was a perequisite. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Dust Raven]

Re: Impossible to abuse / Absolute Balance challenge.

 

Nah. Anything can be abused, everything requires GM monitoring.

 

Buy persuade up to 27-. You can convince anyone of anything, no matter how absurd, with a 99.5% chance of success, more if you take extra time. Ergo, skills are not balanced.

 

COM: Com adds to your PRE attacks, especially if you buy it negative. I'll take -200 COM, that gives me an effective PRE of 100 for making PRE attacks. Watch everyone run in fear the moment my character walks in the room. Ergo, COM is unbalanced.

 

Clinging: Add damage shield. With a high STR character. And 1000 extra limbs and stretching if you're feeling really evil. Look ma, I grabbed everyone in the entire scene at once, and I didn't even need to spend a phase to do it!

 

Yessirrybobcat!

 

Breakfall can let you survive a fall from orbit, Disguise is just Shapeshift RSR, only the Power is the Skill so you save points, a group of characters only needs one with the Climbing skill and everyone effectively has it, Oratory is mass Mind Control... the list is endless!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Impossible to abuse / Absolute Balance challenge.

 

Obviously, I didn't get across what I was saying. Anything can be non-abusive since there will always be a counter of equal measure to oppose it, per the rules.

 

 

Obviously, to evaluate this properly, it needs to be compared against someone who has a comparable (not equal) increase in thier Presence stat, which by the rules, would be used to counter the effect. Therefore, you won't have a 99.5% chance of success. Therefore, non-abusive.

 

Well, let's check shall we?

 

Persuasion 27- (for a PRE 10 character) costs 35 points. Since you actually resist Persuasion with EGO (it's a will power thing), you'd need to boost EGO to counter. So you up your EGO to 28 (actually 36 points) for an EGO Roll of 15-. On an average roll on both, with the success of the EGO Roll being a penalty to the Persuasion Roll, the Persuasion Roll still has a success by 12, enough for an impossible result. Even if you go with PRE, the best you get is a 18-, and the Persuasion Roll still succeeds by 9, almost an impossible effect.

 

Non abusive?

 

Besides, let's get creative here. Let's not meddle in contest of spending points against points. Let's just buy Mimicry and a KS: All U.S. Politicians Direct Telephone Numbers. I wonder how far that can be taken by an inventive and intelligent player.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Impossible to abuse / Absolute Balance challenge.

 

1) List any skill' date=' characteristic, maneuver, or power that could not possibly under any circumstances or in any combination become abusive or unbalancing.[/quote']

 

After everything else I've just posted, there is one thing I feel cannot under any circumstances be abused. Actually, two things. PD and ED. They do actually do anything, as both are reactionary. When they react, they do what they do and that's it, and it's fairly easy to bypass them. You can't even abuse them by spending all your points on them because they are so easy to bypass.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Impossible to abuse / Absolute Balance challenge.

 

After everything else I've just posted' date=' there is one thing I feel cannot under any circumstances be abused. Actually, two things. PD and ED. They do actually do anything, as both are reactionary. When they react, they do what they do and that's it, and it's fairly easy to bypass them. You can't even abuse them by spending all your points on them because they are so easy to bypass.[/quote']

Ah, but I'm not sure they can't be abused in combination which was one of the criteria. So buying PD/ED that is Limited to only protect against some side effect (not necessarily Side Effect) of a Skill, Power, maneuver, etc. could get abusive.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Impossible to abuse / Absolute Balance challenge.

 

Ah' date=' but I'm not sure they can't be abused in [i']combination[/i] which was one of the criteria. So buying PD/ED that is Limited to only protect against some side effect (not necessarily Side Effect) of a Skill, Power, maneuver, etc. could get abusive.

 

How? Unless the Limitation is valued incorrectly I don't see how it can be abusive.

[tesuji]

Re: Impossible to abuse / Absolute Balance challenge.

 

What about PD & ED UBO So that you give everyone around you bonuses to defenses? if you assume a party of four or five, it should be cheapoer than them buying it individually.

 

UBO +1/2

up to 8 others +3/4

area effect +1

selective +1/4

x 4 radius +1/2

net advantage +3

 

so for 40 ap i can give myself and up to 8 allies +5 PD and +5 ED on top of their defenses as long as they stay within 16".

 

Each buying their own would have costed up to 90 cp.

 

is the group saving 50 cp abusive enough?

is the fact that its persistent and can be used to protect innocents and the like in addition to saving pts abusive enough?

[schir1964]

Re: Impossible to abuse / Absolute Balance challenge.

 

Well, let's check shall we?

 

Persuasion 27- (for a PRE 10 character) costs 35 points. Since you actually resist Persuasion with EGO (it's a will power thing), you'd need to boost EGO to counter. So you up your EGO to 28 (actually 36 points) for an EGO Roll of 15-. On an average roll on both, with the success of the EGO Roll being a penalty to the Persuasion Roll, the Persuasion Roll still has a success by 12, enough for an impossible result. Even if you go with PRE, the best you get is a 18-, and the Persuasion Roll still succeeds by 9, almost an impossible effect.

Sorry, nice try. I specifically said "comparable (not equal)", which means not real numbers but in effectiveness. Therefore, a comparable EGO, since that is what you use to resist it with, would be around the 60 - 80 range. Therefore, Persuasion is non-abusive in this respect.

 

 

Besides' date=' let's get creative here. Let's not meddle in contest of spending points against points. Let's just buy Mimicry and a KS: All U.S. Politicians Direct Telephone Numbers. I wonder how far that can be taken by an inventive and intelligent player.[/quote']

Pointless (8^D), since with every action an intelligent player makes an intelligent GM can make an equal and opposite reaction. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Impossible to abuse / Absolute Balance challenge.

 

Sorry' date=' nice try. I specifically said "comparable (not equal)", which means not real numbers but in effectiveness. Therefore, a comparable EGO, since that is what you use to resist it with, would be around the 60 - 80 range. Therefore, Persuasion is non-abusive in this respect.[/quote']

 

Are you actually saying "It's not abusive because someone with a 60 - 80 EGO would be able to resist"?

[David Blue]

Re: Impossible to abuse / Absolute Balance challenge.

 

I have never seen idiomatic Lithuanian, with a native accent (4 points) abused, and never expect to.

 

I have never seen someone abuse +8 COM (4 points), and never expect to.

 

I have never even seen someone abuse +2 BODY (4 points), and never expect to.

 

Of course, they can all be highly abusive in combination. You just buy some typical planet destroying munchkin power linked to any of them. Or indeed, to anything else.

 

The requirement "that could not possibly under any circumstances or in any combination become abusive or unbalancing" makes the challenge purely rhetorical.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Impossible to abuse / Absolute Balance challenge.

 

Pointless (8^D)' date=' since with every action an intelligent player makes an intelligent GM can make an equal and opposite reaction. (8^D)[/quote']

In that case, I will make the following flawless argument:

Absolutely no build at all can possibly be abusive, because the GM has abolute Power, and may counteract any Abuse completely, irreversibly, and even retroactively.

There. Refute that one.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Impossible to abuse / Absolute Balance challenge.

 

I think the lot of you are unbalanced...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Impossible to abuse / Absolute Balance challenge.

 

Sorry' date=' nice try. I specifically said "comparable (not equal)", which means not real numbers but in effectiveness. Therefore, a comparable EGO, since that is what you use to resist it with, would be around the 60 - 80 range. Therefore, Persuasion is non-abusive in this respect.[/quote']

 

While I like what Hugh said... I must also ask: Do you really thing an EGO of 60-80 (costing at least 100 points) is a balanced defense against something that costs 35 points?

 

 

 

Pointless (8^D), since with every action an intelligent player makes an intelligent GM can make an equal and opposite reaction. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Uh-hu. And here I was thinking that the GM was just the guy who plays the villains. [aside] Seems to be the core thinking of most abusive/broken rule threads. [/aside]

[Dust Raven]

Re: Impossible to abuse / Absolute Balance challenge.

 

I think the lot of you are unbalanced...

 

I'm not unbalanced! I'm top heavy!

 

or maybe just asymetrically enhanced...

 

[schir1964]

Re: Impossible to abuse / Absolute Balance challenge.

 

< Hahahahahah.... >

 

All right, time to stop this. (8^D)

 

Obviously, the challenge put forth was made in jest.

I couldn't resist playing along in taking up the challenge, which was meaningless.

 

The whole point of the Hero System is to be flexible enough to handle many different genre's and play styles. So the intent has never been to prevent players from building abusive constructs. That has always been the job of the GM. The system simply tries to set up a consistent way for the GM to measure how abusive any construct might be. (8^D)

 

All the constructs given so far would be abusive in a Heroic campaign, probably abusive in a Standard Superheroic campaign, but would they be abusive in a Cosmic Superheroic campaign? Probably not. It all depends on what the scale that the GM has decided to use and what he will allow to be abusive in his campaign.

 

Gotcha! (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins