Hiding from Detect

[spaceprincessecho]

Let us say that for a campaign I'm working on, some Detects are known in-game to be reasonably common, mainly detecting if a creature is a certain thing. Since members of these detectable groups know there are many out there who could easily sense them, some of them want to hide from this Detect. I think Invisibility versus the type of Detect would work, but I was looking for other opinions, confirmation that I'm thinking about the problem right, that sort of thing.

 

To help, here's an example:

Mordhek is a vampire. He knows that there are vampire hunters who can sense vampires (these vampire hunters have Detect: Vampires). Since Mordhek is a most consummate ninja, frequently infiltrating mortal society, he doesn't want Bob Belmont to use his vampire-sense to break Mordhek's cover. Is Invisibility to Detect: Vampires a reasonable way to counter this detect?

[Fox1]

Re: Hiding from Detect

 

Is Invisibility to Detect: Vampires a reasonable way to counter this detect?

 

It works mechanically....

 

However I wouldn't go that path. Rather I'd go with Images vs. the detect class (only to appear normal) with a decent perception modifier so that sensing him typically fails.

 

The advantage of this is that if the vampire exerts it's true power- it could provide enough PER bonuses to overcome the images advantage. Even better if it's in a MP with special vampire abilities so it has to be dropped.

 

Makes for a more cat and mouse game than pure Invisibility would and leaves up that more powerful representives of Good could easily see through the fake image.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Hiding from Detect

 

I'd go with Invisibility, because it is simple. I like simple. To each their own, but Images is a cumbersome power, IMO. Yes, it allows granularity, but it can get too crunchy... a matter of taste, really.

 

Also, depending on your interpretations, if the character knows he is being hunted, you could rule that Stealth or some such skill could act as "Skill vs. skill" to actively avoid being detected. I like this... but then I like to use skills as open ended abilities.

 

Also... if you have a world where things like Vampire detectors (or mutant detectors, or demon detectors, whatever) exist and are known, I'd suggest such characters get a Distinctive Features: Registers as Vampire... as a Disadvantage. Maybe only worth five points or so, but without it, they don't register as a Vampire.

 

Say a Vamp has found a way to change his DNA (or aura, or whatever is used) so that he does NOT register as a Vamp... then he loses the Disad, but now has no chance of being picked up as a Vamp by normally accepted means.

 

This is very campaign specific, but sounds like it would fit what you described above.

[Agent333]

Re: Hiding from Detect

 

If a Detect were common enough, I would think that a skill analgous to Stealth and/or Concealment might have been developed. A simple Skill vs. Perception roll and voila! Otherwise, I'd use a limited Invisibility as has been suggested.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Hiding from Detect

 

If a Detect were common enough' date=' I would think that a skill analgous to Stealth and/or Concealment might have been developed. A simple Skill vs. Perception roll and voila! Otherwise, I'd use a limited Invisibility as has been suggested.[/quote']

Yeah, or even Disguise if they conceal their nature in plain sight, as it were.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Hiding from Detect

 

If a Detect were common enough' date=' I would think that a skill analgous to Stealth and/or Concealment might have been developed. A simple Skill vs. Perception roll and voila! Otherwise, I'd use a limited Invisibility as has been suggested.[/quote']

 

This is what I was thinking. Or something like it.

 

For that simple granularity, have the Vampire buy the Power Skill: Mortality (based on PRE). He uses it for general interaction with mortals to blend in with them. He can also use it (spending a point of END per Phase) to make a Skill versus Skill contest with anyone with Detect Vampires. While using this ability, anyone with Detect Vampires has to suceed in their PER roll by more than the vampire makes his Power: Mortality roll. It costs 3 points for a PRE/5+9 roll, +1 to the roll for 2 points. This use of the skill might automatically fail depending on the SFX of the Detect Vampires (if the detect is based on analysing blood samples/DNA etc.), but for a supernatural-ish detect it works just fine.

 

For a more definate, superpower approach, Invisibility works. Assign Modifiers until it's use suits you (maybe even a RSR Power: Mortality).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hiding from Detect

 

For a disguise power I would have thought that invisibility could have disadvantages: if you can be seen but not detected then it seems to me that is going to ring some alarm bells.

 

I'd suggest shape shift to appear to be something else, possibly a human. That way you could avoid being detected as a vampire, appear as something else, so they can't cross check with a human detector, or just visually AND it's cheaper than invisibility.

 

Depends what you want, really.

[Fox1]

Re: Hiding from Detect

 

I really don't see a skill working.

 

First it would have to a new skill, disguise (and other skills) don't protect from magical (unusual group) detects by definition- so it would have to a newly created skill. IMO I'd rather do a slightly more complex build than introduce new skills/powers if possible.

 

Second, skill roll vs. skill rolls are highly random in outcome. I see one side roll a 16 and the other roll a 6 all too often. This means that the new skill will have to brought to levels that likely exceed campaign skill caps in order to be reliable.

 

If neither issues concern the GM, it would of couse work as the GM is adding new concepts to the core rules in order to make it work.

 

 

Then there's the whole issue of how common such avoidance is. If one can buy a three point skill here and evade the detect, or buy images then and perhaps create false positives- the whole concept of 'common detects' go out the window.

 

Methods that commonly fail and especially methods that prove false positives are methods that are general ignored. When was the last time you called the cops when you heard a car alarm?

 

If not by the campaign setting for some unknown and likely unlogical reason- then certainly by the players. Consider how they will feel when you basically say to them: those points you spent on that ability you have- worthless.

 

This is ground that shouldn't be approached except rarely IMO.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hiding from Detect

 

I really don't see a skill working.

 

First it would have to a new skill, disguise (and other skills) don't protect from magical (unusual group) detects by definition- so it would have to a newly created skill. IMO I'd rather do a more complex build than introduce new skills/powers if possible.

 

Second, skill roll vs. skill rolls are highly random in outcome. I see one side roll a 16 and the other roll a 6 all too often. This means that the new skill will have to brought to levels that likely exceed campaign skill caps in order to be reliable.

 

If neither issues concern the GM, it would of couse work as the GM is adding new concepts to the core rules in order to make it work.

 

 

Have to disagree there: the disguise skill works just fine against a detect: that's how normal vision is built, there's no reason a disguise super-skill couldn't work against an unusual sense group. OK, it may technically be a new skill but it mechanically identical to an existing one. I'm with you to the extent that I probably wouldn't allow it as there are more expensive ways to do it, but I don't think the principle is necessarily wrong.

 

Your skill v skill point is a good one, but it depends what you are after - skills will never be as reliable as true powers. That's why I suggested shapeshift: it can target whatever sense group you like. The problem comes if there are more than one sense groups that the detects work in and the monkey creating them did something odd. Mind you you have the exact same problem with invisibility, so there is no easy answer. The nearest I can get is to have the GM define a list of acceptable sense groups (including and especially unusual senses at the start of the campaign, so everyone knows what they are doing) OR allow invisibility/shapeshift to work against an power (detect vampire) rather than a sense group, otherwise you get some twit who claims they can smell vampires, and you haven't bought that sense group...

[Battlestaff]

Re: Hiding from Detect

 

A lot of this depends on the nature of the Detect.

 

For example, if the Vampire Hunters can Detect a vampire through the vampire's physical mannerisms, then Acting or Disguise skill may be appropriate to defeat the Detect, or allow a skill vs. skill roll. If the hunters can Detect the vampire by observing physical characteristics, then Disguise might be appropriate skill to resist the Detect. Disguise would also work if Detect used other normal sense to detect vampires (such as smelling them, etc.).

 

If, however, the Detect works by detecting the supernatural element of a vampire's makeup, then I don't believe Disguise would work to resist that. Reading the Disguise description, it appears to only apply to physical disguises. I usually require a power to overcome another power, though there are exceptions. Invisibility may work, but as Sean pointed out, it may raise an alarm when you are seen, but the Detect picks up a void. Images in my opinion would be the way to go.

 

So, I would recommend looking at the Detect's special effect to determine what will overcome it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hiding from Detect

 

A lot of this depends on the nature of the Detect.

 

For example, if the Vampire Hunters can Detect a vampire through the vampire's physical mannerisms, then Acting or Disguise skill may be appropriate to defeat the Detect, or allow a skill vs. skill roll. If the hunters can Detect the vampire by observing physical characteristics, then Disguise might be appropriate skill to resist the Detect. Disguise would also work if Detect used other normal sense to detect vampires (such as smelling them, etc.).

 

If, however, the Detect works by detecting the supernatural element of a vampire's makeup, then I don't believe Disguise would work to resist that. Reading the Disguise description, it appears to only apply to physical disguises. I usually require a power to overcome another power, though there are exceptions. Invisibility may work, but as Sean pointed out, it may raise an alarm when you are seen, but the Detect picks up a void. Images in my opinion would be the way to go.

 

So, I would recommend looking at the Detect's special effect to determine what will overcome it.

 

Wise.

[Fox1]

Re: Hiding from Detect

 

For example, if the Vampire Hunters can Detect a vampire through the vampire's physical mannerisms, then Acting or Disguise skill may be appropriate to defeat the Detect, or allow a skill vs. skill roll.

 

I wouldn't use a Detect Power for this, rather it would have been KS (or perhaps PS): Vampires.

 

 

 

Disguise would also work if Detect used other normal sense to detect vampires (such as smelling them, etc.).

 

Agreed, which is why I specified unusual sense group with my objection above.

 

 

 

Invisibility may work, but as Sean pointed out, it may raise an alarm when you are seen, but the Detect picks up a void. Images in my opinion would be the way to go.

 

Not really. A Detect- Vampire would by the nature be expected to detect a void, i.e. nothing.

 

However a Detect - Kind (Human or Vampire) would result in invisibilty being a dead give-away (unless there is more in the world than humans and vampires- even so, it would be clear that something was up).

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Hiding from Detect

 

Not really. A Detect- Vampire would by the nature be expected to detect a void, i.e. nothing.

 

However a Detect - Kind (Human or Vampire) would result in invisibilty being a dead give-away (unless there is more in the world than humans and vampires- even so, it would be clear that something was up).

Very true, and exactly how I'd handle it. A "Detect-Vampire" should give a "void" response to a normal human, after all.

 

One of the deadliest metanormal assassins in my game world has Invisibility to Danger Sense...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hiding from Detect

 

Very true, and exactly how I'd handle it. A "Detect-Vampire" should give a "void" response to a normal human, after all.

 

One of the deadliest metanormal assassins in my game world has Invisibility to Danger Sense...

 

Fair enough, but you are assuming that the power will be 'detect vampire', not, for example, 'detect type', with analyse and discriminatory. Then the invisibility thing would show you up as someone hiding something, whereas shapeshift/images would mean you'd detect normally, but as something else.

 

...and one of the most paranoid potential victims in the world has 'Detect Invisibility'

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Hiding from Detect

 

...and one of the most paranoid potential victims in the world has 'Detect Invisibility'

Which means the next step in the 'arms race' will be "Invisibility to Detect Invisibility".

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hiding from Detect

 

Which means the next step in the 'arms race' will be "Invisibility to Detect Invisibility".

 

Interesting: that almost closes the loop.

 

Detect assassin next then...

 

Of course, by the time he's finished with all his stealth powers, he'll only have enough points left for a 1/2 HKA knife, so all I really need is 6 resistant pd.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Hiding from Detect

 

According to the book (although fo r the life of me, I can't find where), Detect should have a reasonably common thing that foils it. A detect bought as a sense based on sight shouldn't be able to detect through a brick wall for instance.

What is the special effect for the detect? Is it a magic spell? An electronic device (a la Ghostbusters?) What is it about a vampire that sets it off? If it's because the Detect listens for heartbeats, he could carry a very small drugged mouse in his pocket, or even play a recording of a heartbeat ("Vampires got iPods!"). If it detects for room temperature-ness, he could wear an electrically heated body suit.

If it's a mystical force that says, "Hey, this guy right over here is a vampire", that's harder to defend against. The invisibility or images, perhaps bought through a charm or other focus might be a good way to go.

 

But before you make a decision on what power or skill to buy to counter the detect, take a close look at the special effect. Once you can determine an in-game way to counter the ability, then reason backward to an appropriate mechanic for the counter-measure.

 

Finally, whatever you choose, it shouldn't be too easy, or your characters who bought the Detect will feel cheated.

 

Keith "I seeyou" Curtis

[spaceprincessecho]

Re: Hiding from Detect

 

Wow, a lot of responses. I like a lot of the ideas brought up, using Shapeshift hadn't occurred to me. Images seems like it could work, but it might be a little too cumbersome. In reponse to some of the questions brought up, I envisioned it as (in my example) a mystical 'hey! He's a vampire!' sense. In most cases, I envision it like a spell - casting Detect Vampires and scanning over an area. As for it picking up a blank for a detect-invisible vampire, that shouldn't be strange at all - a human, a puppy, or a window would also not show up on the vampire-sense. And I wouldn't expect the invisible (or shapeshifted, or whatever the proposed defence is) vampire trick to be common - if Detect: Vampires never worked, people wouldn't use it. The idea is intended for a few special people (or maybe a small group or two). Although, neither is the Detect supremely common. It is reasonably common, but not to an 'everyone and their dog can sense vampires' degree - that seems like it would tilt the world against vampires (not necessarily a bad thing, just not what I was going for).

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Hiding from Detect

 

Of course' date=' by the time he's finished with all his stealth powers, he'll only have enough points left for a 1/2 HKA knife, so all I really need is 6 resistant pd. [/quote']

She. And since she's a big bad NPC, I can give her as many points as I want...

[Dino]

Re: Hiding from Detect

 

The Change Environment power has a built in ability to affect PER rolls (and Detect rolls). This is how "Stealth" effects are typically written up.

[CourtFool]

Hiding from Detect

 

This being Hero...

 

21 Dispell 4d6 Detect Vampires, Invisible Power Effects (Hearing and Sight; +¾)

07 Darkness vs. Detect Vampires (10 Active Points) No Range (-½)

90 Drain 4d6 Detect Vampires, Invisible Power Effects (Hearing and Sight; +¾), Ranged (+½)

17 Flash 1d6 Detect Vampires, Invisible Power Effects (Hearing and Sight; +¾)

40 Mental Illusions 8d6, Set Effect (-1)

35 Suppress 4d6 Detect Vampires, Invisible Power Effects (Hearing and Sight; +¾)

 

Levels will have to be adjusted accordingly. Dispell, Drain, Flash and Suppress would require that Vampire to know who was doing the Detect and successfully attack them. Unless you want to do an Area Effect, Continuous thingie. Darkness would probably also need Reduced Endurance, Persistant to be much use.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hiding from Detect

 

According to the book (although fo r the life of me, I can't find where), Detect should have a reasonably common thing that foils it. A detect bought as a sense based on sight shouldn't be able to detect through a brick wall for instance.

 

You can't find it, Keith, because it isn't there! Simulated sense groups are stopped by whatever stops the sense group (unless you buy N-Ray perception, and even then...) so you can't detect through brick walls with sight group enhanced senses BUT if you build the detect from scratch there is nothing I can see in the rules to say you need to define something that blocks it, indeed the base state seems to be that you ignore everything that isn't what you can detect. This is, frankly, ludicrous and you should ahve to define something reasonably common that blocks whatever sesnse you build. Probably.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hiding from Detect

 

The Change Environment power has a built in ability to affect PER rolls (and Detect rolls). This is how "Stealth" effects are typically written up.

 

CE is AE so it would effect vampires standing next to you too. Which might be a bit odd...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hiding from Detect

 

She. And since she's a big bad NPC' date=' I can give her as many points as I want... [/quote']

 

You THINK he's a she but that's just another disguise. And he lied to you about being an NPC.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Hiding from Detect

 

You THINK he's a she but that's just another disguise. And he lied to you about being an NPC.

Feel free to say that to the Queen of Spades if you want to; I don't have a death wish!

 

 

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