How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

[Guest C--]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

NuSoard, I'm gonna have to wait to fully respond to your last post. I see where you're going with it, but I loaned my copy of 5th to the group retard, so I can't check the actual rules until I get it back. Since Invisibility vs Telepathy is definitely a rules-heavy issue, I can't really go on any further until I get my book back.

[Vondy]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

2 possible approaches:

 

1) +10 to Ego Rolls for 20 pts. Brutal, nasty, effective, and downright cheap. It will also make you effectively immune to mind control, mind scan, and mental illusions as well.

 

2) Declare that the spell changes the Class of Mind of the villain. Now anyone who doesn't purchase the 'Mind Blank' class of mind for his telepathy (which will be everyone) is blocked from using mental powers vs him. Even more nasty and cheap than the first option.

 

How does having high ego rolls help you against telepathy?

[Vondy]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

I think, for some applications (esp. non-supers) its reasonable for the gamemaster to rule that the only targeting sense for mental powers is the mental sense group. The LOS rule is primarily for determining range (unless you have mind scan) and doesn't have to be strictly interpreted as "if I can see him my powers work." Its generally read that way, but I don't think the other interpretation will render the system unweildy or introduce too many problems. Invisibility generally has fringe, so its still possible to find them with a halved perception roll, and even if it doesn't, the invisible character (as the power is written) should still have some some method, based on SFX, that can be used to find them.

[Gary]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

How does having high ego rolls help you against telepathy?

 

 

Like any other mental powers, you get a free subconscious breakout roll. Your typical 15 Ego dude will have 22- breakout roll, -1/5 pts effect achieved by the Telepathy over what's needed. That should be quite sufficient for any telepathy short of Takofanes and maybe Menton level.

[Vondy]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Like any other mental powers' date=' you get a free subconscious breakout roll. Your typical 15 Ego dude will have 22- breakout roll, -1/5 pts effect achieved by the Telepathy over what's needed. That should be quite sufficient for any telepathy short of Takofanes and maybe Menton level.[/quote']

 

Unless the GM has additional rules stating how long telepathy takes, that might not help. Especially if the mentalist was looking for something specific. A phase might prove sufficient. I have such rules, but not everyone does.

[Gary]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Unless the GM has additional rules stating how long telepathy takes' date=' that might not help. Especially if the mentalist was looking for something specific. A phase might prove sufficient. I have such rules, but not everyone does.[/quote']

 

 

If the GM has a house rule against this idea, then obviously it wouldn't fly. However, the default rules allow the breakout roll to occur before telepathy, mind control, mental illusion, or mind scan takes effect.

 

I wouldn't mind such a house rule. +1 with Ego rolls costs 2 pts, and essentially acts like +5 Mental Defense that doesn't apply to Ego Blasts. You probably get too much bang for your buck, but officially it's legal.

[Vondy]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

If the GM has a house rule against this idea' date=' then obviously it wouldn't fly. However, the default rules allow the breakout roll to occur [b']before[/b] telepathy, mind control, mental illusion, or mind scan takes effect.

 

I wouldn't mind such a house rule. +1 with Ego rolls costs 2 pts, and essentially acts like +5 Mental Defense that doesn't apply to Ego Blasts. You probably get too much bang for your buck, but officially it's legal.

 

I wasn't aware 5ER specified the roll happened in advance. I haven't read it in detail yet. Good to know. As it is, knowing the construct could be so abused, I probably wouldn't allow it.

[Warp9]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

A few other questions/comments on these issues:

 

Let us assume that Telepathy counts as a sense.

 

And let us imagine that I have a character who has Telepathy with the limitation "based on CON," defined as a truth drug. Assuming that the character has successfully attacked his target and administered the drug, what kind of invisibility would a target need to resist the effects of the drug?

[Vondy]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

A few other questions/comments on these issues:

 

Let us assume that Telepathy counts as a sense.

 

And let us imagine that I have a character who has Telepathy with the limitation "based on CON," defined as a truth drug. Assuming that the character has successfully attacked his target and administered the drug, what kind of invisibility would a target need to resist the effects of the drug?

 

Based on the SFX, invisibility would not be the correct power application. For the drug to work it has to be in the target's system, which means they've already been hit. It makes no sense at all. You would want life support versus the truth serum, or versus all drugs or chemical agents.

[Warp9]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Based on the SFX' date=' invisibility would not be the correct power application. For the drug to work it has to be in the target's system, which means they've already been hit. It makes no sense at all. You would want life support versus the truth serum, or versus all drugs or chemical agents.[/quote']

Where do you stand on the *less limited* EGO based version of Telepathy, would you allow invisibility to defend against that?

 

Side Note: I am aware that it might make the target harder to hit, but for the sake of argument we're assuming that the target has been sucessfully hit and his EGO overcome by this invasive telepathic attack.

[Vondy]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Where do you stand on the *less limited* EGO based version of Telepathy, would you allow invisibility to defend against that?

 

Side Note: I am aware that it might make the target harder to hit, but for the sake of argument we're assuming that the target has been sucessfully hit and his EGO overcome by this invasive telepathic attack.

 

Can you refer me to a specific post (#) that described :less limited ego: ?

[Warp9]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Can you refer me to a specific post (#) that described :less limited ego: ?

I was referring to the concept that "Based on CON" is a -1 limitation.

 

The normal version is the "less limited" EGO version.

 

All I was asking is for a contrast between the normal version of Telepathy and the "based on CON" version. Sorry for any confusion. . . .

 

Would you allow standard Telepathy to be blocked by Invisibility?

[Kristopher]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Where do you stand on the *less limited* EGO based version of Telepathy, would you allow invisibility to defend against that?

 

Side Note: I am aware that it might make the target harder to hit, but for the sake of argument we're assuming that the target has been sucessfully hit and his EGO overcome by this invasive telepathic attack.

 

The Invisibility makes the target almost impossible to hit in the first place, by reducing the ranged OCV (or in this case ranged offensive ECV) of the attacker to zero.

 

Furthermore, one might rule that if the target's thoughts are Invisible, then no amount of Telepathic success would allow an attacker to perceive the target's thoughts...just as no amount of success on a hearing-based PER roll would allow a character to sense someone who is literally making no noise.

[Warp9]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

The Invisibility makes the target almost impossible to hit in the first place, by reducing the ranged OCV (or in this case ranged offensive ECV) of the attacker to zero.

True. But that is not the point that I'm interested in at the moment.

 

Furthermore, one might rule that if the target's thoughts are Invisible, then no amount of Telepathic success would allow an attacker to perceive the target's thoughts...just as no amount of success on a hearing-based PER roll would allow a character to sense someone who is literally making no noise.

Now we're getting to the real point.

 

Going back to the "truth drug." Let's say that is my method to get at the target's thoughts. Are you saying that because those thoughts are "invisible," no amount of truth drug will let me get at them?

[Vondy]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

I was referring to the concept that "Based on CON" is a -1 limitation.

 

The normal version is the "less limited" EGO version.

 

All I was asking is for a contrast between the normal version of Telepathy and the "based on CON" version. Sorry for any confusion. . . .

 

Would you allow standard Telepathy to be blocked by Invisibility?

 

In general, I would not. I've always been pedestrian and used the nomative interpretation of the LOS rule in my games, which implies "if you can see them you can hit them" (i.e., sight serves as a targeting sense for mental powers). Insofar as it was consistently applied, however, I wouldn't complain if the gamemaster chose to interpret the LOS rule as being limited to determining range and ruled the only targeting sense for mental powers was the mental sense group. Its internally consistent and I don't think it would introduce any real problems (since invisibility without fringe should be defined in such a way that there is some way for the mentalist to mentally find the character). For some constructs, like the mind blank example, it makes sense, but traditionally, sight is also a targeting sense for mental powers (and that is the sticking point!) - you have to change what constitutes a targeting sense for mental powers for it to work. The notion (changing what constitutes a targeting sense for mental powers) is not without merit and may be worth pondering. I have to think about it.

[Warp9]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

In general' date=' I would not. I've always been pedestrian and used the nomative interpretation of the LOS rule in my games, which implies "if you can see them you can hit them" (i.e., sight serves as a targeting sense for mental powers). Insofar as it was consistently applied, however, I wouldn't complain if the gamemaster chose to interpret the LOS rule as being limited to determining range and ruled the only targeting sense for mental powers was the mental sense group. Its internally consistent and I don't think it would introduce any real problems (since invisibility without fringe should be defined in such a way that there is some way for the mentalist to mentally find the character). For some constructs, like the mind blank example, it makes sense, but traditionally, sight is also a targeting sense for mental powers (and that is the sticking point!) - you have to change what constitutes a targeting sense for mental powers for it to work. The notion (changing what constitutes a targeting sense for mental powers) is not without merit and may be worth pondering. I have to think about it.[/quote']

It is my (perhaps false) understanding that the discussion went beyond the "targeting" concept.

 

It was my understaning that the concept was that even if you "hit" with your telepathy, you would not be able to read any thoughts because of the invisibility factor (the hearing of the thoughts would itself constitute a violation of the invisibility). That is the matter I am concerned with.

[Vondy]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Furthermore, one might rule that if the target's thoughts are Invisible, then no amount of Telepathic success would allow an attacker to perceive the target's thoughts...just as no amount of success on a hearing-based PER roll would allow a character to sense someone who is literally making no noise.

 

Only a fool of a GM would allow someone to use invisibility to fufill such a broad SFX. Invisibility only serves to make it hard to target the character. As such, it is one method of avoiding having one's mind read (among many). If they character with invisibility to the mental sense group is hit then they're hit and no amount of "but I want the powers effects to extend beyond the mechanics" whining will suffice to make it so. If the player wants truly invisible thoughts that not only make them hard to locate (method one: invisibility) with the mental sense group, but also makes their thoughts invisible after they've been hit (method two: a separate realm of mechanics) then they need to purchase an additional power to sufficiently cover they're bases. Mental defense and damage reduction come to mind. SFX may properly limit a power in some cases, or give limited advantages in others, but it can't work outright mechanical miracles.

[Vondy]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

It is my (perhaps false) understanding that the discussion went beyond the "targeting" concept.

 

It was my understaning that the concept was that even if you "hit" with your telepathy, you would not be able to read any thoughts because of the invisibility factor (the hearing of the thoughts would itself constitute a violation of the invisibility). That is the matter I am concerned with.

 

See my comments in post #92.

[Warp9]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Only a fool of a GM would allow someone to use invisibility to fufill such a broad SFX. Invisibility only serves to make it hard to target the character. As such' date=' it is one method of avoiding having one's mind read (among many). If they character with invisibility to the mental sense group is hit then they're hit and no about of "but I want the powers effects to extend beyond the mechanics" whining will suffice to make it so. If the player wants truly invisible thoughts that not only make them hard to locate (method one: invisibility) with the mental sense group, but also makes their thoughts invisible [i']after they've been hit [/i](method two: a separate realm of mechanics) then they need to purchase an additional power to sufficiently cover they're bases. Mental defense and damage reduction come to mind. SFX may properly limit a power in some cases, or give limited advantages in others, but it can't work outright mechanical miracles.

I agree.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

I'm being too lazy to read more than the first post right now, but just off the top of my head I am thinking Mental Illusions built as a Damage Shield (automatically affects anyone who hits the character with a Mental Power).

[SteveZilla]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

I understand it' date=' I just don't agree with it. Since Invisibility affects other powers with "sense-like aspects" it should affect the "sense-like aspects" of Telepathy as well. Why would telepathy be immune when Clairsentience and Mind Scan are not?[/quote']

 

Perhaps because neither of those powers "get inside" the target, while that is the whole point of Telepathy?

 

Personally I agree with the "by the book" way of Invisibility not being a defense against Telepathy, "sense-like aspects" or no. Otherwise, you have the case of Mental Group Invisibility (10 pts) = 100% Mental Damage Reduction (Resistant). Even if it's just for Telepathy, it's still too much for too little cost. Not to mention being an absolute defense, something that a Sense-Affecting Power shouldn't be (neither a defense nor absolute).

 

The people who suggested Shape Shift are close, but not quite there. If the attacking mentalist achieves a level of effect greater than "Surface Thoughts", they can "get under the mask" (something that can't be done going the Invisibility route).

 

So, here is my entry into the mix:

 

6 Mental Group Shape Shift (One Other Form: Joe Normal's Surface Thoughts, Nontargeting Group) - Zero END(+1/2), Persistent(+1/2), Inherent(+1/4) (11 Active Points), Limited Effect (Telepathy Only; -1/4), Always On(-1/2).

 

16 Mental Defense +40 - Only Vs. Telepathic Reading(-1), Only To Reduce Level Of Effect To Below EGO +10(-1/2).

 

Unless a *huge* amount of Telepathy is used, all a telepath will get will be surface thoughts (the limitation on the defense ensures that it's not blocked completely), and the Shape Shift ensures that it's only "uninteresting, normal" thoughts.

 

If you want to get really technical, you might need to apply Invisible Power Effects to the Shape Shift. That way, someone can't build a "Detect Mental Shape Shift" Sense and have an "Ah Ha!" moment with this NPC.

 

If you have any Mentalists with Armor Piercing, Penetrating, or Find Weakness on/with their Telepathy, you may need to add Hardened and/or Lack of Weakness to the mix.

 

 

Of course, this is just my ----- .-.-.- ----- ..--- dollars.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Since you were interested in converting, I just re-read the D&D spell (at least the 3.5 version), and it doesn't just mask your thoughts, it provides complete protection against, "all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects." Whatever the SFX, this sounds to me like: 1.) Invisibility vs. all Sense Groups, but limited to, "Magic Only," which in a D&D-like setting would probably be like a -1 Limitation; 2.) a HUGE amount of Mental Defense, mental Damage Reduction, and/or some kind of strange mental Desolidification.

[Warp9]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

A few more comments. . . .

 

Telepathy has been compared to hearing. I guess that brings up images of someone listening to a "mental radio."

 

With a normal sense situation (like hearing), you don't have to actively attack a specific target, and you don't have to overcome the target's defenses.

 

I would say that telepathy is different from hearing in that it is an invasive personal attack. It requires the attacker to blast through the target's mental defense, and overcome the target's ego in much the same manner as a mind control attack would.

 

Rather than comparing it to a hearing perception situation, I'd say it is like pinning a target down, inserting a needle into the target and extracting a tissue sample. Or it could also be compared to pinning a target down and injecting a large amount of truth drug. It represents a kind of domination of the target to force them to give you the information that you want.

 

IMO the mechanical differences between a perception roll and a telepathic attack are great enough that I would not treat Telepathy as a sense, in the same way that I'd treat hearing as a sense.

 

At the very least it creates a situation where Telepathy has both the limitations of an attack (must overcome target's defenses), and the limitations of a sense (can be blocked by invisibility/ShapeShift), that does not seem fair to me.

 

If you want to create a mental "sense" which would be affected by Shape Shift or Invisibility, I would consider a sense which works like Shadowrun's Aura Reading ability.

 

Aura Reading: You can assume that all creatures have auras which reflect important information about their emotions, and mental state. Reading these auras does not require an attack roll, and the target's mental defense in irrelevant in this case (your aura is just "out there" for anybody with the right skills to sense).

 

If you want to defend against Aura Reading, buy Invisibility to Mental Senses, or Mental Shape Shift. But if you want to defend against a Telepathic assult, buy Mental Defense.

 

Again all this stuff is just my opinion--it is not like there is really a RIGHT or WRONG way. Although I do think that there is a decent justification for treating Telepathy as an attack, and not treating it like a "sense."

[ThealaSildorian]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Even if the base from which he was working was a D&D power, I don't think in terms of D&D...I haven't for a long time.

 

What I did was I took the essence of what the "Mind Blank" spell does. Yes, it "prevents" the subjects mind from being read, but how does it do that? By making the subjects thoughts "invisible". A Telepath can get into your head, but when they get there, there appears to be nothing to read. It appears blank/empty.

That effect to me does not say "Mental Defense"...to me, Mental Defense is preventing someone from getting into your head. The effect screams Invisibility to Telepahty/Mind Link or perhaps Images vs Telepathy (the Image being a "blank mind")

My reasoning behind this is because Mental Defense denies you entry...Period. However, the "Mind Blank" spell/power simply makes your mind unreadable. A Telepath could still get into your head and send a Telepathic Mind Control command for you to kill your comrades....Mental Defense would prevent this, however the Mind Blank spell should not.

 

Besides, thats what these message boards are for...people to share ideas and try new things with the system...Mental Defense is the easy answer for something like this. Alternative/Unusual power constructs are what many of the newbies come to us veterans for anyway....

 

Ah, now that is an excellent point! I knew there was a reason why MD wasn't the answer, and that's it.

 

Theala

[ThealaSildorian]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

But Invisibility to Mental Senses does not make your mind unreadable. If I look at you with my eyeballs and then roll my 12D6 of Telepathy' date=' it doesn't do anything at all if you have Invisibility to Mental Group. You still get your mind read. Mental Powers can be used based off of Targeting Smell, if you have it. They aren't solely targeted based off of the Mental Sense Group. Thus, [i']mechanically[/i], Invisibility to Mental Group does not do what you want.

 

But Invisibility to Telepathy does which is the Power I've been considering using all the along. The more ideas I read here, the more I'm convinced I had the right idea in the first place. I just have better justifications and arguements to explain my choices mechanically if the question ever pops up during a game.

 

 

Mental Defense and Mental Reduction are the two powers that give you the game effect you're looking for. Those are the only two powers unless you go with some wonky Mental Illusions construct. Forget the names of the powers. Look at what game mechanic best performs what you're looking for. Here, it's Mental Defense or Mental Reduction. Despite the fact that Invisibiltiy sounds like it would be the appropriate power (based on the name), the game effect that Invisibility gives is not even close to the real effects of a Mind Blank spell.

 

The previous poster already gave an excellent explaination for why, so I won't repeat what he said here. MD and MR keep you out. Invisibility covers what happens when a telepath gets in.