How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

[RDU Neil]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Actually... taking a tangent here (bad RDU Neil, bad!)

 

I've always made a point to describe the interaction of Mental Attacks (of all kinds ) and Mental Defenses just as colorfully as I would EBs and bullets vs. armor and such.

 

The same way I'd describe the sparking, spang of bullets against a shiny red breast plate... I would describe something like, "You reach out, and tentatively grasp the mind, but as your power pours like liquid over their thoughts, instead of slipping in and pulling everything to the surface, it slides off like water over a bell jar. This mind is quite well shielded!"

 

Essentially, mental powers interacting should have the same "obvious" effects to the two mentalists engaged... even if nothing more than two guys blinking at eachother is what the rest see.

 

So... IMO (I have no idea what the book says)... you always know you've been attacked mentally... often by WHO as well... and the attacker knows that defenses exist, and whether a little got through, or none at all, or that they cracked easily under his power, etc.

 

It would... for me... require IPE on Mental Defenses, for the attacker to have something like, "Your power oozes into his brain, ripping into his motor control... and you force him to turn and blast his friends! EXCEPT... this doesn't actually happen! It seemed to work exactly like it should, but the guy is aiming at you and unloading a huge blast! What's your DCV again?"

 

I also make it clear when the Ego (ECV) was too high and they "missed" vs. hitting and bouncing off of Mental Defenses. "His mind is slippery, and your psychic tendrils just go right on past. He's got a very powerful, quick mind!"

 

Anyway... just a bit of a tangent which would... if this was my game... be a major consideration if I was trying to model the spell that Theala is attempting.

[Guest C--]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

2 things:

 

1) It's an NPC. It doesn't need a writeup. It's enough that the GM knows how it works. The player will never see the character sheet.

 

2) You don't need Invisible Power Effects. The power doesn't cost End, so it's already invisible. If you want the special effects of the Mental Defense to be "you read generic surface thoughts", then that's the sfx. No need for IPE. Requiring IPE is from the school of thought that says you need IPE to have a superstrong character look like a wimp. It's overthink.

[Fox1]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

1) It's an NPC. It doesn't need a writeup. It's enough that the GM knows how it works. The player will never see the character sheet.

 

The issue here is not that the attacker is 'seeing' the defense, rather he's seeing the effect of his own attack.

 

To use your own example, Mr. Steel may look at Mr. Geek and see no STR- but the second he does a STR vs. STR test against him he'll know something is up, i.e. Mr Geek has a high STR too.

 

So it's not necessary over-think.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Well' date=' bear in mind, this character is meant to be an NPC (a major badass villain btw). If I, the player, were to attempt to "scry" his mind to determine his motivations for X, and I rolled enough dice on Telepathy to get through, then Mental Defense either works, or it doesn't. A mentalist would know if his attack were successful or not, if he "got in," because that's the whole purpose of the Telepathy table. If my GM said to me, "well, you only read pretty trivial thoughts" then I would believe I only rolled a certain effect on the Telepathy table. I might let it go at that, not take the risk of trying to "go deeper." [/quote']

 

I don't see it that way. I don't get to "know" how much damage my energy blast did. Some characters may look seriously hurt, and not be. Others may grit their teeth and appear to be much less affected than they were. Why should mental attacks be different? If the sfx of Mental Defense are "you only get trivia", That's as valid as "you feel as if your mind has struck a brick wall".

[Fox1]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

I don't see it that way. I don't get to "know" how much damage my energy blast did.

 

One may not know the exact damage value, but it would be an odd expectation indeed to have no idea at all of what happened.

 

We've seen people shoot Superman and watched/heard the bullets bounce off without any apparent effect.

 

We've seen Blackhawk down and watched someone torn in half.

 

We've seen any number of things inbetween and generally know that spraying blood and cries of pain indicate harm.

 

Now some of that can be faked. Thus we find and put to use such things as acting skill, images and mental illusions in the game.

 

But barring the use of such, it certainly is within the realm of rational GM decision to give out reasonable descriptions of the effects of an attack- be it physical or mental.

[Guest C--]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

 

We've seen people shoot Superman and watched/heard the bullets bounce off without any apparent effect.

 

We've seen Blackhawk down and watched someone torn in half.

 

We've seen any number of things inbetween and generally know that spraying blood and cries of pain indicate harm.

 

I've played in enough horror games to know that just because something bleeds, doesn't mean you can kill it.

 

I've seen monsters have huge chunks blown out of them with a shotgun, turn their head towards you (after they pick it up off of the ground), and smile menacingly. Game effect? 10 rPD. Your bullet had no real effect. Everything else is just pretty talking.

[Fox1]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

I've played in enough horror games to know that just because something bleeds' date=' doesn't mean you can kill it.[/quote']

 

And who says that such monsters did not have Armor- invisible effect (+1/2), damage looks like it go through?

 

Sounds like a good horror ability to me, and an effect that has real advantage over straight up bullet bouncing (for a evil thing form beyond anyway).

[Guest C--]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

And who says that such monsters did not have Armor- invisible effect (+1/2)' date=' damage looks like it go through?[/quote']

 

Because Armor does not cost End, and is therefore automatically invisible. Armor does not have to be detectable by 2 sense groups, like powers that cost End.

 

Sounds like a good horror ability to me, and an effect that has real advantage over straight up bullet bouncing (for a evil thing form beyond anyway).

 

It's not really advantageous. If you can't kill it, you can't kill it. It doesn't matter if it slowly loses Comeliness as it takes damage (like the Terminator), or if the bullets just bounce off. The only thing it might affect is the players' tactics, and then only as far as they're trying to "game" the system (and unsuccessfully at that, or they'd realize I just bought the thing Armor and gave it a clever description).

[Fox1]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Because Armor does not cost End' date=' and is therefore automatically invisible. Armor does not have to be detectable by 2 sense groups, like powers that cost End.[/quote']

 

Again you fail to see the difference between looking at something and not seeing the armor (the default), and looking at something and seeing the effect of armor after attacks have been made against it.

 

The default is that the effect of the attack is seen.

 

 

 

 

It's not really advantageous.

 

It's highly advantageous if the creature uses it to lure characters (like it does in so many movies).

 

If the character never takes advantage of the deception, he would of course be allowed to forgo the advantage and treat it as SPX, but he must in that case never act deceptive.

 

Edit: Oh, as for the Terminator and similar critters. I think anyone watching would know that there attack is basically having no effect on him. I mean, after all the cops keep shooting didn't they?

 

Standing there and firing back without concern is a good indication of armor- flying blood or no flying blood.

[Guest C--]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Again you fail to see the difference between looking at something and not seeing the armor (the default), and looking at something and seeing the effect of armor after attacks have been made against it.

 

The default is that the effect of the attack is seen.

 

 

It's highly advantageous if the creature uses it to lure characters (like it does in so many movies).

 

If the character never takes advantage of the deception, he would of course be allowed to forgo the advantage and treat it as SPX, but he must in that case never act deceptive.

 

Edit: Oh, as for the Terminator and similar critters. I think anyone watching would know that there attack is basically having no effect on him. I mean, after all the cops keep shooting didn't they?

 

Standing there and firing back without concern is a good indication of armor- flying blood or no flying blood.

 

Special effects can have game advantages. Superman gets bonus dice to his Presence Attack when your tank shell bounces off his spitcurl. The evil critter who spurts green ichor when shot by a machine gun gets to lay there and pretend it's dead. The disadvantage that goes along with the evil critter's "it just won't die!" Armor is that any sort of attack, such as an injected poison, that wouldn't affect Superman (it can't penetrate the skin) is going to have an effect anyway. So if the poison has the limitation of "knife must do 1 point of Body" before it takes effect, that limitation is effectively negated for these purposes.

[Guest C--]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Again you fail to see the difference between looking at something and not seeing the armor (the default), and looking at something and seeing the effect of armor after attacks have been made against it.

 

The default is that the effect of the attack is seen.

 

If you think that, then IPE won't help with that, anyway.

[Fox1]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Superman gets bonus dice to his Presence Attack when your tank shell bounces off his spitcurl..

 

Sure, it's in the PRE charts- displaying power, etc. etc.

 

Doesn't come from SPX. I could justify the same bonuses for "chest explodes under your tank shell, and he just stands there looking at you..."

 

 

 

 

The disadvantage that goes along with the evil critter's "it just won't die!" Armor is that any sort of attack, such as an injected poison, that wouldn't affect Superman (it can't penetrate the skin) is going to have an effect anyway. So if the poison has the limitation of "knife must do 1 point of Body" before it takes effect, that limitation is effectively negated for these purposes.

 

No it won't. The critter has armor, no REAL body was done. It just looked like it was.

[ThealaSildorian]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

2 things:

 

1) It's an NPC. It doesn't need a writeup. It's enough that the GM knows how it works. The player will never see the character sheet.

 

2) You don't need Invisible Power Effects. The power doesn't cost End, so it's already invisible. If you want the special effects of the Mental Defense to be "you read generic surface thoughts", then that's the sfx. No need for IPE. Requiring IPE is from the school of thought that says you need IPE to have a superstrong character look like a wimp. It's overthink.

 

Oh goodness, no! I would never do that to my players. Even in AD&D, villains get full writeups, and there are some ways around even "absolute" spells. I want to get as close to interpreting the AD&D power as I can, but I'm not out to screw my players. I plan to make this character usable at conventions, or by other GMs. So I want the Power to be elegant, as true to the original idea as I can get it, but within the rules. Which is why I'm here.

 

Theala

[ThealaSildorian]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

I don't see it that way. I don't get to "know" how much damage my energy blast did. Some characters may look seriously hurt' date=' and not be. Others may grit their teeth and appear to be much less affected than they were. Why should mental attacks be different? If the sfx of Mental Defense are "you only get trivia", That's as valid as "you feel as if your mind has struck a brick wall".[/quote']

 

OK, ya gotta point there

 

Theala

[Guest C--]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Oh goodness, no! I would never do that to my players. Even in AD&D, villains get full writeups, and there are some ways around even "absolute" spells. I want to get as close to interpreting the AD&D power as I can, but I'm not out to screw my players. I plan to make this character usable at conventions, or by other GMs. So I want the Power to be elegant, as true to the original idea as I can get it, but within the rules. Which is why I'm here.

 

Theala

 

I do that to my players all the time. It's not a matter of screwing over your players. It's a matter of saving yourself work. No NPCs get full writeups from me. Dr Brainiac has as many followers as he needs. Points are for players, silly. Now, usable at conventions, that may be another matter. I'd still just put a note on it--"this character has a permanant Mind Blank on him--any telepathic abilities will only turn up boring non-information--it has 60/80/100 APs for purposes of Adjustment Powers". Done. If the players come up with a clever solution for how to get around it, then they get around it. Trust me. Players never know the difference.

[Guest C--]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Sure, it's in the PRE charts- displaying power, etc. etc.

 

Doesn't come from SPX. I could justify the same bonuses for "chest explodes under your tank shell, and he just stands there looking at you..."

 

Yep. Except people don't run in horror when it happens to Supes.

 

No it won't. The critter has armor, no REAL body was done. It just looked like it was.

 

The limitation requires that Body be taken so that the poison can get into the bloodstream. The sfx say that the bullet has entered the bloodstream. That's all I'm concerned with.

 

--

 

Honestly, this sort of thing is such a small advantage (or disadvantage) that I don't worry about. This isn't Accountant Hero. I'm not concerned that there's a point or two missing somewhere. Honestly, Fox1, I'm surprised at your position. You're starting to sound like Steve Long.

[Fox1]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

The limitation requires that Body be taken so that the poison can get into the bloodstream. The sfx say that the bullet has entered the bloodstream. That's all I'm concerned with.

 

The SPX doesn't say the bullet has affect the bloodstream. It only says that it appears to have affected the bloodstream.

 

It is of couse easy enough to do a version where it does affect the character, it's only a small limit away.

 

 

Honestly, this sort of thing is such a small advantage (or disadvantage) that I don't worry about. This isn't Accountant Hero. I'm not concerned that there's a point or two missing somewhere.

 

I don't consider the advantage any smaller than the difference between an IAF cane gun and an OAF Colt Python.

 

 

Honestly, Fox1, I'm surprised at your position. You're starting to sound like Steve Long.

 

That's your best point so far in this exchange

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Honestly' date=' this sort of thing is such a small advantage (or disadvantage) that I don't worry about. This isn't Accountant Hero.[/quote']

 

To me, that small advantage or disadvantage is the definition of "special effects". Superman bounces bullets. The bystanders gasp in awe. The zombie picks its head up and places it atop its neck. The bystanders gasp in horror.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

I'm currently working on converting an AD&D character to Hero System. This character has had a permanent mind blank spell cast on him: the result of which is anyone who tries to read his mind reads only uninteresting or trivial thoughts.

 

I'm trying to figure out how to translate this to Hero terms. I thought about buying Invisibility to Mental Senses, Telepathy Only (-1/2), no fringe for 15 pts.

 

I know I could simply buy lots of Mental Defense, but this isn't the answer. Mental Defense is fairly easy to overcome, especially in a fantasy game. And the special effect of the spell is supposed to be an automatic thing.

 

I did think maybe Mental Illusions might be a better choice. Any ideas?

 

Theala

 

 

Invisibility to Mental Senses is exactly what you need. They'll try to read the mind...except there seems to be nothing there to read. Any attempt at getting a mental "lock" is tried at 0 ECV (like a ranged attack targeting an invisible target) unless the attacker is touching the target, in which case it would only be 1/2 ECV (like a Ranged attack attacking an invisible target that is in an adjecent Hex, or a HtH attack vs an Invisible target)

 

This "Mind Blank" spell sounds like it could be a combination of Invisibility to Mental senses (possibly Telepathy only), Extra ECV (no more than +3) and a bit of Extra Mental Defense, or low grade Mental Reduction (25% at most). Those powers used in conjunction will make a guy who's mind is practically impossible to read by all but the most powerful Telepaths.

 

Note: A lot of my information came from the 4th Edition version of The Ultimate Mentalist which has a large discussion on the "Sense" aspect of powers like Telepathy and Mind Scan. Invisibility affects them as it would any other sense power. I'm doing this from memory though, as my copy of TUM dissapeared some years ago. Damn I miss that book. The only Hero book that was equal to The Ultimate Martial Artist in usefulness IMO...(well, before The Ultimate Vehicle came out anyway)

[Lord Liaden]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Here's a passage from the FAQ illustrating another approach which may have potential:

 

Q: What are the effects of Shape Shift to the Mental Sense Group?

 

A: If a character has Shape Shift (Mental Group), his mind “looks†different to anyone who uses a Mental Sense to perceive his mind. Trying to perceive him with Mind Scan would generally be pointless; he “looks†like some other mind. Telepathy at the “surface thoughts†level would “see†a different mind, but at levels beyond that could still perceive the character’s deeper thoughts, memories, and so forth — Shape Shift doesn’t change those, and does not allow a character to change his Psychological Limitations, either.

[Kristopher]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Related question: in your opinions, how does Invisibility to the Mental Group affect Mind Control and Mental Illusions?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

I just read the FAQ and apparently they no longer allow Invisibility to work against Telepathy like it used to.

 

However there is a contradiction in the FAQ that says Mind Scan is a Mental Senes, then it goes on to include Mind Scan in the list of powers that work normally against invisibility because of LOS. The whole point of Mind Scan is to locate someone who is out of LOS and to possibly be able to create a link through which another Mental Power can be used through. I think that Invisibility to Mental Sense would most definately block Mind Scan.

 

I also think that Invisibility to Mental Sense should block the "hearing" aspect of Telepathy, just as Invisibility to Hearing keeps a person from making any kind of "noise" a person with Invisibility to Mental Sense would be totally silent to someone with Telepathy.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Related question: in your opinions' date=' how does Invisibility to the Mental Group affect Mind Control and Mental Illusions?[/quote']

 

According to the FAQ, it doesn't. At all. Nada. Nothing. Zilch. Your choices are Mental Defense, Damage Reduction or high ECV. Good luck.

 

My personal thoughts on the matter: It makes someone difficult to "see" with any attacking Mental Power. ECV 0 to attack unless they are "touching" (in which case its then 1/2 ECV) or they've been affected with Telepahty, Mind Scan or Mind Link, in which case the ECV is normal.

 

Note that I would also allow an attacker a mental Perception roll vs Invisibility as normal when attempting to percieve an invisible attacker...and there is also the "Fringe" to consider.

 

I would also break down Invisibility vs the Mental senses like this:

 

Mental Sense Group:

 

Mental Awareness

Telepathy

Mind Link (the one's defined with a Mental SFX)

Mind Scan

Detect (any individual detect specified as being part of the Mental Sense group)

 

Invisibility could be bought for a specific Mental Sense, or the Sense Group as a whole (the Mental Sense Group is considered a "Targeting Sense" for purposes of the cost of Invisibility vs Mental Senses)

 

This seems very powerful no? Someone invisible to the Mental Sense group could simply go around and ignore Mentalists.

 

Yes, thats the effect I'm going for.

 

However, there is a very inexpensive "backdoor" around this uber-power. The mentalist simply need purchase a Detect Power, such as "Detect Minds" which allows him to sense Minds in the area (can't read thoughts, just knows where they are) with Targeting and not designate it as part of the Mental Sense Group. Very simple and relatively inexpensive.

[Kristopher]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

That's very disappointing.

 

Well, one more reason to ignore the FAQ, I guess. I haven't looked at it yet, why should I start now?

 

 

IMO, mental powers should be treated as if they target via the Mental sense group.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

That's very disappointing.

 

Well, one more reason to ignore the FAQ, I guess. I haven't looked at it yet, why should I start now?

 

 

IMO, mental powers should be treated as if they target via the Mental sense group.

 

Agreed. I quite happily ignore the FAQs regularly.