How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

[Agent X]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

The FAQs just make the game absolutely confusing.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

I just read the FAQ and apparently they no longer allow Invisibility to work against Telepathy like it used to.

 

However there is a contradiction in the FAQ that says Mind Scan is a Mental Senes, then it goes on to include Mind Scan in the list of powers that work normally against invisibility because of LOS. The whole point of Mind Scan is to locate someone who is out of LOS and to possibly be able to create a link through which another Mental Power can be used through. I think that Invisibility to Mental Sense would most definately block Mind Scan.

 

I also think that Invisibility to Mental Sense should block the "hearing" aspect of Telepathy, just as Invisibility to Hearing keeps a person from making any kind of "noise" a person with Invisibility to Mental Sense would be totally silent to someone with Telepathy.

 

Could you point me to the section of the FAQ that says that Mind Scan works normally against Invisibility? I just checked the FAQ for Invisibility, and that says specifically that Mind Scan is blocked by Invisibility to the Mental Sense Group.

 

Note that I'm not doubting you, NuSoard. It wouldn't be the first contradiction in the FAQ.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

The FAQs just make the game absolutely confusing.

 

Oh, I don't know. Sometimes they're very helpful. Mind you, I also am quite willing to ignore the ones I disagree with, but I do that to the main rules as well.

 

Folks who want an "official" position on a contentious issue probably appreciate them, though. And if you're going to cross campaigns between different GMs you may need a baseline to agree on.

 

Heck, if none of us asked Steve Long the questions, he'd never have to make a ruling.

[ThealaSildorian]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

I do that to my players all the time. It's not a matter of screwing over your players. It's a matter of saving yourself work. No NPCs get full writeups from me. Dr Brainiac has as many followers as he needs. Points are for players' date=' silly. Now, usable at conventions, that may be another matter. I'd still just put a note on it--"this character has a permanant Mind Blank on him--any telepathic abilities will only turn up boring non-information--it has 60/80/100 APs for purposes of Adjustment Powers". Done. If the players come up with a clever solution for how to get around it, then they get around it. Trust me. Players never know the difference. [/quote']

 

Well, we have different philosphies as GMs, then. Generaly speaking, I don't believe in carte blanche NPCs. Oh, there are some exceptions, usually reserved for deus ex machina moments that enhance the plotline. But I believe there should be a framework for the NPC, otherwise everything is just GM whim, and as player I find that unfair.

 

Theala

[ThealaSildorian]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Invisibility to Mental Senses is exactly what you need. They'll try to read the mind...except there seems to be nothing there to read. Any attempt at getting a mental "lock" is tried at 0 ECV (like a ranged attack targeting an invisible target) unless the attacker is touching the target, in which case it would only be 1/2 ECV (like a Ranged attack attacking an invisible target that is in an adjecent Hex, or a HtH attack vs an Invisible target)

 

This "Mind Blank" spell sounds like it could be a combination of Invisibility to Mental senses (possibly Telepathy only), Extra ECV (no more than +3) and a bit of Extra Mental Defense, or low grade Mental Reduction (25% at most). Those powers used in conjunction will make a guy who's mind is practically impossible to read by all but the most powerful Telepaths.

 

I'm beginning to think something along the lines of what you suggest is the way to go. I'm still not completely convinced MD or DR is it and am more inclined to Invisibility, but a combination of the two like you suggest would cover the bases, and it's not like I've got to worry about points for an NPC.

 

Note: A lot of my information came from the 4th Edition version of The Ultimate Mentalist which has a large discussion on the "Sense" aspect of powers like Telepathy and Mind Scan. Invisibility affects them as it would any other sense power. I'm doing this from memory though, as my copy of TUM dissapeared some years ago. Damn I miss that book. The only Hero book that was equal to The Ultimate Martial Artist in usefulness IMO...(well, before The Ultimate Vehicle came out anyway)

 

Can't find my copy either. I moved a few months ago, and half my gaming stuff is still in boxes. So I know the feeling

[ThealaSildorian]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Related question: in your opinions' date=' how does Invisibility to the Mental Group affect Mind Control and Mental Illusions?[/quote']

 

For the purposes of what I'm trying to do, it wouldn't affect it at all. The NPC would still be able to be Mind Controlled or fooled by Mental Illusions if the spell caster is able to overcome his EGO, just like with any other character.

 

Theala

[sbarron]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

I just re-read the title of this thread.

 

How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

In the Hero System, the most straight forward answer to this question is mental defense. If other mental attacks work against this character normally, then it should be limited mental defense. All this invisibility and such is only necessary because we're trying to create a D&D power in Hero.

 

KISS

[Vondy]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

The FAQs just make the game absolutely confusing.

 

I use the rulebook and only the rulebook as the baseline for my games*

 

The FAQ adds too much material and another source to check.

 

It also equates to "how steve would run his game" and not how I would run mine. Its interesting to look at, but that's the end of it.

 

*there are a handful of house rules, but they amount to less than a page.

[Vondy]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

I just re-read the title of this thread.

 

How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

In the Hero System, the most straight forward answer to this question is mental defense. If other mental attacks work against this character normally, then it should be limited mental defense. All this invisibility and such is only necessary because we're trying to create a D&D power in Hero.

 

KISS

 

And if you have a high ego score, just buy 50% mental damage reduction.

[RDU Neil]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

I use the rulebook and only the rulebook as the baseline for my games*

 

The FAQ adds too much material and another source to check.

 

It also equates to "how steve would run his game" and not how I would run mine. Its interesting to look at, but that's the end of it.

 

*there are a handful of house rules, but they amount to less than a page.

 

This is very true. It is really Steve's interpretation at the GAME RULE level, rather than actual mechanical level, re: the FAQ.

 

Unfortunately, such decisions are making it into the based rule book... cluttering and parsing the core mechanics into much too fine a detail. For this to be a true toolkit... the FAQ needs to remain separate... or for things like Steve's Autofire skills and such, to exist in GAME supplements like Dark Champions... rather than as Core Mechanics.

 

Just my opinion... but you said what I'd been thinking. (Or at least I interpreted it as such.)

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Could you point me to the section of the FAQ that says that Mind Scan works normally against Invisibility? I just checked the FAQ for Invisibility' date=' and that says specifically that Mind Scan [b']is[/b] blocked by Invisibility to the Mental Sense Group.

 

Note that I'm not doubting you, NuSoard. It wouldn't be the first contradiction in the FAQ.

 

No, no. You are correct. It does mention that Mind Scan is affected by Invisibility (thought so!) I think I misread the part where it says a person who is invisible can use Telepathy, Mind Scan, Mind Control etc and it doesn't hide the powers from those with Mental Awareness. I was in a hurry as I'm using my roomates computer and one of them needed it at the time

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

I just re-read the title of this thread.

 

How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

In the Hero System, the most straight forward answer to this question is mental defense. If other mental attacks work against this character normally, then it should be limited mental defense. All this invisibility and such is only necessary because we're trying to create a D&D power in Hero.

 

KISS

 

Even if the base from which he was working was a D&D power, I don't think in terms of D&D...I haven't for a long time.

 

What I did was I took the essence of what the "Mind Blank" spell does. Yes, it "prevents" the subjects mind from being read, but how does it do that? By making the subjects thoughts "invisible". A Telepath can get into your head, but when they get there, there appears to be nothing to read. It appears blank/empty.

That effect to me does not say "Mental Defense"...to me, Mental Defense is preventing someone from getting into your head. The effect screams Invisibility to Telepahty/Mind Link or perhaps Images vs Telepathy (the Image being a "blank mind")

My reasoning behind this is because Mental Defense denies you entry...Period. However, the "Mind Blank" spell/power simply makes your mind unreadable. A Telepath could still get into your head and send a Telepathic Mind Control command for you to kill your comrades....Mental Defense would prevent this, however the Mind Blank spell should not.

 

Besides, thats what these message boards are for...people to share ideas and try new things with the system...Mental Defense is the easy answer for something like this. Alternative/Unusual power constructs are what many of the newbies come to us veterans for anyway....

[Guest C--]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Even if the base from which he was working was a D&D power, I don't think in terms of D&D...I haven't for a long time.

 

What I did was I took the essence of what the "Mind Blank" spell does. Yes, it "prevents" the subjects mind from being read, but how does it do that? By making the subjects thoughts "invisible". A Telepath can get into your head, but when they get there, there appears to be nothing to read. It appears blank/empty.

That effect to me does not say "Mental Defense"...to me, Mental Defense is preventing someone from getting into your head. The effect screams Invisibility to Telepahty/Mind Link or perhaps Images vs Telepathy (the Image being a "blank mind")

My reasoning behind this is because Mental Defense denies you entry...Period. However, the "Mind Blank" spell/power simply makes your mind unreadable. A Telepath could still get into your head and send a Telepathic Mind Control command for you to kill your comrades....Mental Defense would prevent this, however the Mind Blank spell should not.

 

Besides, thats what these message boards are for...people to share ideas and try new things with the system...Mental Defense is the easy answer for something like this. Alternative/Unusual power constructs are what many of the newbies come to us veterans for anyway....

 

But Invisibility to Mental Senses does not make your mind unreadable. If I look at you with my eyeballs and then roll my 12D6 of Telepathy, it doesn't do anything at all if you have Invisibility to Mental Group. You still get your mind read. Mental Powers can be used based off of Targeting Smell, if you have it. They aren't solely targeted based off of the Mental Sense Group. Thus, mechanically, Invisibility to Mental Group does not do what you want.

 

Mental Defense and Mental Reduction are the two powers that give you the game effect you're looking for. Those are the only two powers unless you go with some wonky Mental Illusions construct. Forget the names of the powers. Look at what game mechanic best performs what you're looking for. Here, it's Mental Defense or Mental Reduction. Despite the fact that Invisibiltiy sounds like it would be the appropriate power (based on the name), the game effect that Invisibility gives is not even close to the real effects of a Mind Blank spell.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

But Invisibility to Mental Senses does not make your mind unreadable.

 

It most certainly does, if the GM decides it does. Since the guy posting the question is the GM, its a perfectly valid option to suggest to him.

 

If I look at you with my eyeballs and then roll my 12D6 of Telepathy, it doesn't do anything at all if you have Invisibility to Mental Group. You still get your mind read. Mental Powers can be used based off of Targeting Smell, if you have it. They aren't solely targeted based off of the Mental Sense Group. Thus, mechanically, Invisibility to Mental Group does not do what you want.

 

It most certainly should do what I want.

 

Here's a counter-example:

 

Someone has Invisibility to Hearing. You can see them with your eyeballs, but you still can't hear them. They make no sound. You know they are there, but for your sense of Hearing, they don't exist.

 

This situation is the same for Telepathy. Invisibilityt o Telepathy makes their thoughts "invisible" to any Telepath trying to read them. A Telepath could send them a thought and the target would probably recieve it, but the Telepath can't "Hear" anything from the target, because to his telepathy, the targets thoughts don't exist. This situation is exactly the same as someone with Invisibility to Hearing, but it applies to Mental sound rather than physical sound. Why is this difficult to comprehend?

 

Mental Defense and Mental Reduction are the two powers that give you the game effect you're looking for.

 

Yes, they can be used for this effect, but I explained earlier why I wouldn't use them (most especially Mental Defense). I am very much into the interactivity of various powers and abilities and how they affect and react to each other. Mental Defense not only prevents someone from reading your thoughts, it also prevents them from diving into memories, into the subconsciouss, from sending the target a Telepathic message. Thats not the effect of the spell or ability we are trying to simulate. We're trying to simulate an ability that simply prevents one's consciouss thoughts from being read. Sure you could go with Mental Defense or Mental Reduction only vs Telepathy to read thoughts (-2?), but Invisibility could the same thing without the cludge.

 

Those are the only two powers unless you go with some wonky Mental Illusions construct.

 

Nope. Invisibility works fine, as should Images vs Telepathy.

 

Forget the names of the powers. Look at what game mechanic best performs what you're looking for.

 

Thats exactly what I do. I don't even consider the name of the basic power, I consider its effect. For puposes of this spell/ability (make the minds conscious thoughts unreadable" Invisibility works fine. It works better than mental defense because it is a less kludgy writeup.

 

 

Despite the fact that Invisibiltiy sounds like it would be the appropriate power (based on the name), the game effect that Invisibility gives is not even close to the real effects of a Mind Blank spell.

 

Its closer than mental defense, thats for damned sure. At least from where I'm sitting it is....

[AlHazred]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

The other thing I was thinking of, was Shape Shift (Mental Group), to make your thoughts seem uninteresting. Should be pretty cheap actually.

[Warp9]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

It most certainly does, if the GM decides it does. Since the guy posting the question is the GM, its a perfectly valid option to suggest to him.

 

 

 

It most certainly should do what I want.

 

Here's a counter-example:

 

Someone has Invisibility to Hearing. You can see them with your eyeballs, but you still can't hear them. They make no sound. You know they are there, but for your sense of Hearing, they don't exist.

 

This situation is the same for Telepathy. Invisibilityt o Telepathy makes their thoughts "invisible" to any Telepath trying to read them. A Telepath could send them a thought and the target would probably recieve it, but the Telepath can't "Hear" anything from the target, because to his telepathy, the targets thoughts don't exist. This situation is exactly the same as someone with Invisibility to Hearing, but it applies to Mental sound rather than physical sound. Why is this difficult to comprehend?

I can understand your points here.

 

My concern with the invisibility route is that it seems pretty cheap to make yourself absolutely immune to an unlimited amount of points of Telepathy.

 

Most senses are a bit more like the invisiblity, you have them or you don't (you have UV vision or you don't). It is kind of an all or nothing thing. I don't have as much problem with an all or nothing defense in this case.

 

Powers like Telepathy are not just an "all or nothing" category. 6d6 of Telepathy is much different than 26d6 of Telepathy. And the defense against telepathy should reflect this fact. And I have problems with an absolute defense that is totally effective even against 1000d6 of Telepathy. (all this stuff is just IMO, of course)

[Guest C--]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

It most certainly does' date=' if the GM decides it does. Since the guy posting the question is the GM, its a perfectly valid option to suggest to him.[/quote']

 

The GM can decide that a 20 Comeliness does that, too. That doesn't mean that the Power, book-wise, does anything close to it.

 

And Theala is a girl.

 

It most certainly should do what I want.

 

Here's a counter-example:

 

Someone has Invisibility to Hearing. You can see them with your eyeballs, but you still can't hear them. They make no sound. You know they are there, but for your sense of Hearing, they don't exist.

 

So my Targeting Hearing doesn't work. I can still see them. I shoot them with my 4D6 RKA "Ultrasonic Blast". They still take damage.

 

This situation is the same for Telepathy. Invisibilityt o Telepathy makes their thoughts "invisible" to any Telepath trying to read them. A Telepath could send them a thought and the target would probably recieve it, but the Telepath can't "Hear" anything from the target, because to his telepathy, the targets thoughts don't exist. This situation is exactly the same as someone with Invisibility to Hearing, but it applies to Mental sound rather than physical sound. Why is this difficult to comprehend?

 

Telepathy isn't a sense. Telepathy is a power. I can't "see" them with my mental senses, but when I roll my effect dice, they take the effect. I don't see what is hard to understand about this.

 

 

Yes, they can be used for this effect, but I explained earlier why I wouldn't use them (most especially Mental Defense). I am very much into the interactivity of various powers and abilities and how they affect and react to each other. Mental Defense not only prevents someone from reading your thoughts, it also prevents them from diving into memories, into the subconsciouss, from sending the target a Telepathic message. Thats not the effect of the spell or ability we are trying to simulate.

 

That's why you put a limitation on it.

 

We're trying to simulate an ability that simply prevents one's consciouss thoughts from being read. Sure you could go with Mental Defense or Mental Reduction only vs Telepathy to read thoughts (-2?), but Invisibility could the same thing without the cludge.

 

Invisibility is the kludge. Invisibility does not do what you're trying to make it do. The only reason you guys are jumping on Invisibility is because the name of the power sounds like it might do what you want it to do. But, unfortunately, the actual description of the power makes it fairly clear that it does not do that.

 

Nope. Invisibility works fine, as should Images vs Telepathy.

 

Thats exactly what I do. I don't even consider the name of the basic power, I consider its effect. For puposes of this spell/ability (make the minds conscious thoughts unreadable" Invisibility works fine. It works better than mental defense because it is a less kludgy writeup.

 

Its closer than mental defense, thats for damned sure. At least from where I'm sitting it is....

 

Okay. I'll go through it.

 

I'm Mind Lad. I've got 12D6 Mind Scan, Telepathy, Mind Control, and Mental Illusions. I've got a 6D6 Ego Attack and a 23 Ego.

You're Mind Blank Lad. You've got some powers and stuff, and an 18 Ego, and Invisibility vs Mental Group.

 

I try to Mind Scan for you. Hmm..., you don't appear to be there. Then I see you in the Donut Shop. I can see you, so I can target you. I roll ECV vs ECV, and need a 13- to hit you. I roll a 12. I hit. Now I roll my 12D6. I roll 42. I get 24 past your Ego. I can read lots and lots of stuff. It doesn't matter that you're Invisible to mental senses, because... Telepathy is not a mental sense. Telepathy is it's own seperate thing. So I'm still reading your mind.

 

Now, if you go with your apparent house rule, that Mental Powers can only be targeted by Mental Sense Group senses, then it breaks down even more. That's because I'm now at ECV 0 to target you. That means I need to roll a 3 to hit you. So, instead of reading "generic surface thoughts", the GM says to me "Hey, you failed to hit his mind." It also means that I've got to hit with my ECV of 0 if I want to Ego Attack you, which is not what the sfx of the mind blank does.

 

Now, let's bring in Mind Blank Lad Mk 2. He's got 40 points of Mental Defense, only to stop his mind from being read with Telepathy (-1). That's already less points than an Invisibility that's 0 End Persistant with no fringe (which is what you'd need). So I try and hit Mind Blank Lad Mk 2. I need a 13-. I roll a 12. I hit. I roll my effect of 42. The GM says "Hmm... He's thinking about fly fishing." I say "Do I get anything else? Anything... deeper?" GM: "He seems to really like fly fishing. Other than that, nope."

 

You're looking for a power that stops a mental attack. That's mental defense. If you want to avoid being "seen" with a mental sense, get Invisibility vs Mental Sense Group. If you want to stop the effect of a mental power, get mental defense. It's not like we're talking quantum physics here.

[Warp9]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

One may not know the exact damage value, but it would be an odd expectation indeed to have no idea at all of what happened.

 

We've seen people shoot Superman and watched/heard the bullets bounce off without any apparent effect.

 

We've seen Blackhawk down and watched someone torn in half.

 

We've seen any number of things inbetween and generally know that spraying blood and cries of pain indicate harm.

 

Now some of that can be faked. Thus we find and put to use such things as acting skill, images and mental illusions in the game.

 

But barring the use of such, it certainly is within the realm of rational GM decision to give out reasonable descriptions of the effects of an attack- be it physical or mental.

 

Those are some interesting points.

 

The concept that you have a "right" to get a good indication as to how much damage was done makes some sense.

 

But I have a question about it: imagine that I am playing something very different from a human, for example a water spirit. Such an entity might not show damage in the same way that a human would, which is not to say that the damage wouldn't be visible if one knew what to look for. Does that mean I would need to buy a specific power to represent this fact?

[Gary]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

2 possible approaches:

 

1) +10 to Ego Rolls for 20 pts. Brutal, nasty, effective, and downright cheap. It will also make you effectively immune to mind control, mind scan, and mental illusions as well.

 

2) Declare that the spell changes the Class of Mind of the villain. Now anyone who doesn't purchase the 'Mind Blank' class of mind for his telepathy (which will be everyone) is blocked from using mental powers vs him. Even more nasty and cheap than the first option.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

The other thing I was thinking of' date=' was Shape Shift (Mental Group), to make your thoughts seem uninteresting. Should be pretty cheap actually.[/quote']

 

Very good! I forgot about Shape Shift being the "other" sense affecting power.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

I can understand your points here.

 

My concern with the invisibility route is that it seems pretty cheap to make yourself absolutely immune to an unlimited amount of points of Telepathy.

 

Most senses are a bit more like the invisiblity, you have them or you don't (you have UV vision or you don't). It is kind of an all or nothing thing. I don't have as much problem with an all or nothing defense in this case.

 

Powers like Telepathy are not just an "all or nothing" category. 6d6 of Telepathy is much different than 26d6 of Telepathy. And the defense against telepathy should reflect this fact. And I have problems with an absolute defense that is totally effective even against 1000d6 of Telepathy. (all this stuff is just IMO, of course)

 

Understandable. But even Perception isn't "All or Nothing", a Perception roll is needed and the amount of success rolled determines how much info one gains from percieving. Even though Invisibility is a near-absolute defense against Perception, there are ways around Invisibility.

 

And for the record, I wouldn't allow Invisibility vs the entire Mental Sense group unless there was a big weak spot to exploit. For purposes of this Mind Blank spell, I think Invisibility works just fine though.

 

I would also allow the Telepath a Perception roll to spot the "fringe". I would give a bonus to that perception roll based on how well they made their Telepathy roll by (+1 for every 5pts over what they needed for their effect roll. An excellent roll could get a +4 or +5 bonus to spot the "fringe") The effect of spotting the Fringe would be sensing some garbled and jumbled thoughts. They can't make sense of it, but they know its there, so they would know something is wrong and could try and figure out a way around it.

 

How could they get around it? Perhaps a subtle Telepathic Mind Control command to drop their Mental Invisibility power "Reveal your thoughts to me".

 

No, you can't brute-force your way past this power, but sometimes its good to force players to think outside the box.....

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

So my Targeting Hearing doesn't work. I can still see them. I shoot them with my 4D6 RKA "Ultrasonic Blast". They still take damage.

 

And successfully blast the guy who is Invisible to Mental Sense Group with Ego Blast and he still takes damage.

 

 

Telepathy isn't a sense. Telepathy is a power.

 

It is a Power with "Sense-like aspects", just as Mind Scan is a Power with "Sense-like aspects" just like Clairsentience is a Power with Sense-like aspects, yet invisibility works normally against those powers....

 

I can't "see" them with my mental senses, but when I roll my effect dice, they take the effect. I don't see what is hard to understand about this.

 

I understand it, I just don't agree with it. Since Invisibility affects other powers with "sense-like aspects" it should affect the "sense-like aspects" of Telepathy as well. Why would telepathy be immune when Clairsentience and Mind Scan are not?

 

 

 

That's why you put a limitation on it.

 

Nothing wrong with that route. I'm just offering an alternative. And if you read the original post, she was looking for alternative ideas, I simply agreed with her original idea, which was to use Invisibility. She wants the ability to be Automatic. Invisibility makes it so.

 

 

 

Invisibility is the kludge. Invisibility does not do what you're trying to make it do.

 

explain to me please, how the mechanics of Invisibility make it useless against Telepathy again?

 

From my understanding, Invisibility makes a target non-existant to a specific sense or senses. If one merely considers Telepathy to be a sense, where does that break the mechanic of Invisibility?

 

The only reason you guys are jumping on Invisibility is because the name of the power sounds like it might do what you want it to do. But, unfortunately, the actual description of the power makes it fairly clear that it does not do that.

 

Well, I don't have the revised edition, and my copy of FREd has nothing in the description of Invisibility that would keep it from working against Telepathy if I consider Telepathy to be a sense-like Power.

 

 

Okay. I'll go through it.

 

Okay, lets go.

 

I'm Mind Lad. I've got 12D6 Mind Scan, Telepathy, Mind Control, and Mental Illusions. I've got a 6D6 Ego Attack and a 23 Ego.

You're Mind Blank Lad. You've got some powers and stuff, and an 18 Ego, and Invisibility vs Mental Group.

 

Ah, thats where you are wrong. Mind Blank Lad doesn't have Invisibility to Mental Group. Mind Blank Lad (the one Theala wants to write up) only has Invisibility to Telepathy.

 

I try to Mind Scan for you. Hmm..., you don't appear to be there.

 

Theala's character would be there. He's not invisible to Mind Scan.

 

 

Then I see you in the Donut Shop. I can see you, so I can target you. I roll ECV vs ECV, and need a 13- to hit you. I roll a 12. I hit. Now I roll my 12D6. I roll 42. I get 24 past your Ego. I can read lots and lots of stuff. It doesn't matter that you're Invisible to mental senses, because... Telepathy is not a mental sense. Telepathy is it's own seperate thing. So I'm still reading your mind.

 

Actually, the effect that I like to simulate for Invisibility to the Mental Group is that you see them, but their mind simply doesn't seem to be there. It doesn't seem to exist. You can still try to lock on to them because you see them...there has to be a mind there, but you just can't find it. OECV 0, unless you are touching, which is 0ECV 1/2.

They would read like an Automaton. An Automaton cannot be affected by Mental Powers (unless it has an EGO, or your Mental Powers work vs the Machine class of minds), so an Automaton reads like nothing..it doesn't exist to normal Mental Powers. The character who is Invisible to the Mental Sense Group would appear as an Automaton to any Telepath who tried to read them.

 

Now, if you go with your apparent house rule, that Mental Powers can only be targeted by Mental Sense Group senses, then it breaks down even more.

 

That's because I'm now at ECV 0 to target you. That means I need to roll a 3 to hit you. So, instead of reading "generic surface thoughts", the GM says to me "Hey, you failed to hit his mind." It also means that I've got to hit with my ECV of 0 if I want to Ego Attack you, which is not what the sfx of the mind blank does.

 

Yep, thats exactly it. Invisibility to Mental Sense Group is quite powerful, which is why I would keep a close eye on it. Just as NND and AVLD attacks are quite powerful and one should keep an eye on them. I have no problem with this and I don't think it "breaks" the system at all. I've been doing it since 1990 when I first started playing Hero. I only had 1 player who was Invisible to the entire Mental Group and he still got his butt kicked on a regular basis. It didn't make him too powerful as Mental Powers are a limited group of sfx. In a game based on Telepathic powers, I would probably veto or at least require that such a power be highly limited. In a Supers game, I'd let it fly. So you can't read him with Telepathy or Ego blast him? Big deal, he'll still go down from a Judo chop to the neck...

 

You're looking for a power that stops a mental attack.

 

No, in this thread, Theala is not looking for a power that stops a Mental Attack. She's looking for a power that keeps surface thoughts and deep thoughts from being read. A Telepath still should be able to send Telepathic messages and subliminal Mind Control impulses with no problem. Mental Defense will prevent this.

 

That's mental defense.

 

Highly limited mental defense, sure. Invisibility, Shape-shift and Images works better, IMO.

 

If you want to avoid being "seen" with a mental sense, get Invisibility vs Mental Sense Group. If you want to stop the effect of a mental power, get mental defense. It's not like we're talking quantum physics here.

 

Well, since Theala bought the book for herself, its her decision to make ultimately, not mine, not yours and not Steve's.

 

We could go around about this all day. We have our opinions (and I do respect yours, I just don't agree with it and will continue to suggest Invisibility to Mental sense for a power of this type...

[CthulhuCollecto]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Could you just take a lot of mental defense with a visible limitation ie trivial surface thoughts as the special effect

[Kirby]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Related question: in your opinions' date=' how does Invisibility to the Mental Group affect Mind Control and Mental Illusions?[/quote']

In my opinion, I'd treat invisibility to the Mental Group like I would treat Invisibility to regular sight.

 

For Mind Control, Ego Blast & Mental Illusions, you can use if you can physically see the person. (Think of it like using an Energy Blast vs someone invisibile; you can still affect them, even if you can't see them.) For Invisibility to Mental Groups, Mind Scan wouldn't pick up the person even if they're standing in front of you. YMMV.

[Kirby]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Could you just take a lot of mental defense with a visible limitation ie trivial surface thoughts as the special effect

I would think that would be a +1/4 advantage, as opposed to a disadvantage. Just my opinion.