How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

 

 

nice in theory but IMX not real in practice at all.

 

Oh, I have experience this in practice. I've had Mentalists run rampshod over a supers campaign that I've run. And they were playing with the same active point limit everyone else is. Problem is 60 Active points of a Mental Power can be far more effective than 60 Active points of Energy Blast!

 

Why?

 

Because most non-mentalist characters in Supers games have shiite for Mental Defenses of any kind. They have buttloads of Physical and Energy Defenses, so a 12D6 Energy Blast is nothing to them, but most non-mentalists have less than 10pts of Mental Defense (and a good majority of them having none) which makes 12D6 Mind Control godly.

 

 

this requires more than one phase and maintaining telepathy for long periods of time is difficult.

 

Thats fine. If thats the first thing the Telepath does in combat, that means by segment 6 (in most games, assuming a Mentalist with SPD 4) of the 1st turn, the character who could put the most damage on an enemy has been informed of that enemies weakspot. Without the Telepath it could take several turns to discover the enemies weakness, if at all. (it could be discovered quickly, but only if they are lucky. With a Telepath in the group, its not just a matter of "if" but "when")

 

the formers usually require lots of effect to achieve +20 style results. The latters don't last too long as breakout rolls with plusses tend to break the guy free of your "dont remember me" fairly quickly. odds are the vicimt remembers you within a minute (three ego rolls.)

 

Assuming a Non-mentalist character with an Ego of 20 (usually less):

 

in a campaign that supports 60 active point powers (and from what I've read here, thats pretty low) which gives us 12D6 of Mind Control to work with....

 

Average on 12D6 is 44pts.

 

Result acheived: Ego +24

 

Well, you can't quite convince a character who isn't suicidal to "kill himself" with that roll (6pts short! Damn it!) but the great thing about most villians is that they don't mind killing their comrades at all (thats part of what makes them villians! No loyalty to speak of) except for in rare circumstances.

 

And don't make me calculate a 60 active point Mind Control effect on a security guard with 0 Mental Defense and an Ego of 10. Not only would he let you in and not remember, he'd give you directions to the power plant you need to disable...

 

again, the effects you list require higher levels in the power and ego rolls get them out fairly quickly. I really dont see a molester with buckets of dice in mental illusion doing much before the breakout roll is made.

 

Not really. In a 60 active point campaign (and I've seen several here who support 75 active or even 90 active point games, including myself) the above numbers I posted were average rolls. Much higher results could easily be achieved several times in a game session (of course, lower rolls would be seen as well) and the smart Mentalist player will choose his victims based on their inability to resist...such as the guard with 10 Ego and 0 Mental Defense, or the Brick Villian with the 15 Ego and 8pts of Mental Defense and convinces him to start pummelling his buddies...

 

Those are the types of players I've had in my games. They are very effective with Mental Powers, so I don't have a problem comming up with the occasional NPC who throws a whammy their way like Invisibility to Mental Sense group or something similar.

 

 

Sorry but i really don't see mental powers as some boogeyman.

 

I don't see them as a boogeyman...on the contrary, I love the way Hero handles Mental Powers. They are effective. Moreso than any RPG I've ever played and for that, I love Hero all the more.

 

However I realize exactly how effective Mental Powers can be, if wielded by an intelligent and thoughtful player and thus don't mind coming up with the ocasional counter-power to mess with them from time to time...

[prestidigitator]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

I see this as a good thing.

 

Why?

 

Because aside from Transform, Mental Powers (esp Telepathy, Mind Control and Mental Illusion) are some of the most versatile powers in the game, bar none. They allow you to get a great number of effects for a relatively reasonable price. (and in a campaign where most people don't posses Mental Defense, its not at all expensive to be effective)

 

A character with Telapthy can simply "dive" into someones mind and learn all their secrets, including Psychological disads, Vulnerabilities and susceptibilities. DNPC's....the whole enchilada. Then in the next phase, Telepathically communicate these weaknesses to his comrades so that they may take advantage of them.

 

Thats powerful.

 

A character with Mind Control can force someone to hurt himself, his comrades, do things that would get him thrown in jail. Give up their wallet or credit cards. Or simply "Open the door and forget you ever saw me". Superstealth without buying Desolid (to get through a locked door) and Invisiblity or Stealth (to get past the guard).

 

Thats very powerful.

 

A character with Mental illusion can not only convince someone they see/hear/taste/smell something thats not there...they can make them believ it so much that they take physical damage from it. They can put someone into an illusion so completely they cease to interact with the real world. Then you can do with them as you please (the power of choice for rapists and child molestors, to be certain). Neither Images nor Shapeshift is anywhere near this potent.

 

Thats incredibly powerful.

 

Thus, I don't have a problem with Mental Powers being effected in this manner. #1, its going to be rare, so my PC's will almost never have to deal with it. #2 they get so many benefits from their Mental Powers, I'm going to slap any jerky who tries to whine to me when his character can't affect 1 measly NPC with their Telepathy....

The problem with these arguments is that they do not apply to Mental Powers specifically. The results you point out require that you get very high levels of effect. With similar levels of effect, you could kill someone outright with a Killing Attack, knock them into a coma with a Normal Attack, trap them indefinitely with an Entangle, Transform them completely into something useless, etc. I would agree that when characters take Mental Powers they tend to Limit them less than other Powers are often Limited, so they tend to be more generic. But that also makes them cost more, and I don't think it is anything inherent in the Powers themselves, so I think it is all reasonably balanced.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

However' date=' IMO, Telepathy [i']is[/i] a Mental Sense. It is used to gather information...thats exactly what senses do. It is treated as a power because this is necessary to determine the amount of information discovered, but ultimately it is used to "Watch" memories, and to "Hear" thoughts. Thats just my take on it, anyway.

Well, I don't think that everything used to gather information should necessarily be considered a sense. For example, is my Contact Perk a sense? KSs could in a way be defined as gathering information from memory. Are they senses? How about Skills such as Tracking? Some means of gathering information simply utilize other senses, or aren't useful to define as a, "sense," in mechanical terms. I agree that having Flash affect Telepathy when it isn't defined as a sense is odd, though. I'd like it to at least be consistent. If you can Flash Telepathy, you should be able to be Invisible to it as well, or create a region of Darkness to it (whether that region be defined in physical terms or in a way similar to the, "area," of Mind Scan).

[prestidigitator]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

I missed this message earlier--replying late, sorry. D&D 3.0 is pretty much the same thing, but I'm working off the description of the spell's effects on the character (an old 1st ed AD&D character). The 1st ed description was equally all encompassing. To be true to my conversion, I'm going with the canon description of the NPC, and thus limiting the Power to those attempting to read his mind to viewing "trivial thoughts." This keeps the Power from being too Powerful--some think it too powerful as it is.

 

Mental Desolid is an interesting idea: "You sense his mind, but you just can't grab a hold of it."

Given that goal, I would go with sufficient (possibly Hardened) MD+DR to make it near impossible to affect the character beyond the level of surface thoughts. I wouldn't try to get complex with it; just say the jumbled thoughts make it difficult to get even coherent surface thoughts, rather than trying to Limit it in some way. Wave it off as Special Effects. You could even have it affect other Mental Powers if you wanted to broaden the justification a little (the jumble of thoughts makes it difficult to interject a mental command; there already seem to be a confusion of mental images there, and the illusions just slip in among the rest without having much affect on the character's true perceptions; etc. to taste).

 

However, if you did want to limit the defense(s) to Telepathy alone, I would say that -2 is probably appropriate for a D&D-like setting, as Telepathy seems quite uncommon even among mind-affecting magic. If your campaign differs, another value might obviously be appropriate.

 

Consider even 10 Ego, 20 MD, and 25% Mental DR. That would require (on average) a 10d6 (50 APs) to even read surface thoughts. To go beyond surface thoughts would require 14d6 (70 APs) on average. If you have AP limits in the game, it should be easy to define a combination which will make the character, "immune," to appropriate Mental Powers of a given level of effect. If you have no AP limits, or certain villains/spells/effects can go above them, you could make it bigger, or simply define it at a reasonably high level and hand-wave the rest.

 

You might run into a problem with Cumulative Mental Powers too, so the Mental Defense portion of the defense should probably be high enough to deal with this (unless you want some attacks to be able to get though it eventually).

[Kirby]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

The problem with this analogy is that when you "attack" with Telepathy' date=' you have to roll vs a table and overcome EGO to achieve an effect. Not so with energy blast.[/quote']

With an Energy Blast, if you hit, you have to overcome PD/ED.

[ThealaSildorian]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Given that goal' date=' I would go with sufficient (possibly Hardened) MD+DR to make it near impossible to affect the character beyond the level of surface thoughts. I wouldn't try to get complex with it; just say the jumbled thoughts make it difficult to get even coherent surface thoughts, rather than trying to Limit it in some way. Wave it off as Special Effects. You could even have it affect other Mental Powers if you wanted to broaden the justification a little (the jumble of thoughts makes it difficult to interject a mental command; there already seem to be a confusion of mental images there, and the illusions just slip in among the rest without having much affect on the character's true perceptions; etc. to taste). .[/quote']

 

Well, I've decided that MD and DR don't work because they keep a mentalist out, wheras the effect I'm trying to acheive addresses what happens when a mentalist gets in.

 

So here's what I've decided to go with:

 

10 pts Mind Blank (1): Invisibility to Mental Sense Group, no fringe, 0 END Persistent (+1), works vs. Telepathy only (-1), still able to be targeted by other Mental Powers, including telepathic commands (+0), does not affect DECV for purposes of being targeted by a Mental Power (-1).

 

5 pts Mind Blank (2): Shapeshift (Mental Group), shapes surface thoughts to trivial and uninteresting thoughts, Triggered by Telepathy (+1), triggers automatically, trigger resets automatically, 0 END (+1/2), Does not affect other Mental Powers (-1), Linked with Mind Blank (1) (-1/2).

 

The Invisibilty hides his real thoughts, while the triggered Shapeshift simulates the SFX of "trivial and uninteresting thoughts" from the canon description of the 1e AD&D character I'm converting (Erac's Cousin from Rogue's Gallery, in case anyone's interested). A Telepath can still get to his deep thoughts or subconscious thoughts if he scores well enough on the Telepathy table, but the thoughts are invisible and would be "blank." However, a clever player might notice the fact he can't get past surface thoughts and come to the conclusion that something else is going on, which would allow him a Perception Roll to see past the Invisibility--if the player made a successful Perception Roll to see past the Invisibilty then he would be able to read the character's real thoughts based on how well he scored on the Telepathy Table.

 

I think that covers the SFX I'm trying to simulate, with the understanding that I can't exactly duplicate the original AD&D effect. But I think I come pretty close.

 

Theala

[ThealaSildorian]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

With an Energy Blast' date=' if you hit, you have to overcome PD/ED.[/quote']

 

Which was precisely my point

 

Theala

[Guest C--]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Well, I've decided that MD and DR don't work because they keep a mentalist out, wheras the effect I'm trying to acheive addresses what happens when a mentalist gets in.

 

See, the thing is, there isn't really a game distinction between "keeping mentalist out" and "fooling him once he gets in". The game doesn't really go to that level of granularity. Of course, I'm the one who said you should just hand-wave the whole darn thing, so if this works for you, that's absolutely fine. I just know that if I was the GM, and I saw the writeup you're going to use, I'd be fairly confused as to what it was supposed to do. But if it works for you, more power to you.

[ThealaSildorian]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

See' date=' the thing is, there isn't really a game distinction between "keeping mentalist out" and "fooling him once he gets in". The game doesn't really go to that level of granularity. Of course, I'm the one who said you should just hand-wave the whole darn thing, so if this works for you, that's absolutely fine. I just know that if I was the GM, and I saw the writeup you're going to use, I'd be fairly confused as to what it was supposed to do. But if it works for you, more power to you.[/quote']

 

I explained several times before--I intend to share this conversion with others, specifically convention use, as well as posting it on my own web page. That's why I want to get a mechanic that works as opposed to GM's fiat.

 

Of course there's a game distinction between keeping a mentalist out and fooling him once he gets in. If you keep him out, he's out. Like a bank vault. If a safecracker succeeds in getting in the vault, sure he's in--but he has to know where to look among all the safety deposit boxes to find the one with the ultra-rare coin collection he has come to steal. That's why a Telepath has to roll on the Telepathy Table: by overcoming the vault's Ego, he's able to find the box he's looking for. That leads to what the Invisibility and Shapeshift represent--making it difficult for the mental safecracker to find the safety deposit box with the deep thoughts and subconscious memories.

 

That's why Mental Defense and Damage Reduction don't work for the SFX I have in mind. Mental Defense and Damage Reduction represent the bank vault itself, not its contents. The Invisibilty and Shapeshift represent the contents--although I possibly could have used other Powers such as Mental Illusions instead of Shapeshift--but the description of Shapeshift and its application to Mental Group in BOB is so on target it seemed like an excellent choice.

 

Theala

[Guest C--]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

I explained several times before--I intend to share this conversion with others' date=' specifically convention use, as well as posting it on my own web page. That's why I want to get a mechanic that works as opposed to GM's fiat.[/quote']

 

I know. And I'm glad it works for you, but I think that you're stretching the definitions of what Invisibility and Shape Shift do per the game rules. I, as a GM, would say "Hmm... I think I know what she's trying to do here, but the powers don't work that way."

 

Of course there's a game distinction between keeping a mentalist out and fooling him once he gets in.

 

Not... really.

 

If you keep him out, he's out. Like a bank vault. If a safecracker succeeds in getting in the vault, sure he's in--but he has to know where to look among all the safety deposit boxes to find the one with the ultra-rare coin collection he has come to steal. That's why a Telepath has to roll on the Telepathy Table: by overcoming the vault's Ego, he's able to find the box he's looking for. That leads to what the Invisibility and Shapeshift represent--making it difficult for the mental safecracker to find the safety deposit box with the deep thoughts and subconscious memories.

 

If he makes his Telepathy roll past your Ego and Mental Defense, Telepathy works. That's it. There's nothing else. That's it. I understand what you're saying with "That leads to what the Invisibility and Shapeshift represent". But that's the problem. While the concept of "mental invisibility" or a "mental shapeshift" sounds like it works description-wise, it's not what happens powers-wise.

 

I've just now read through the power descriptions for both Invisibility and Shape Shift (I got my book back--woo-hoo!). Neither makes any indication that it stops Telepathy. Nothing in the description of Telepathy makes any mention that it is stopped by Invisibility or Shape Shift.

 

That's why Mental Defense and Damage Reduction don't work for the SFX I have in mind. Mental Defense and Damage Reduction represent the bank vault itself, not its contents. The Invisibilty and Shapeshift represent the contents--although I possibly could have used other Powers such as Mental Illusions instead of Shapeshift--but the description of Shapeshift and its application to Mental Group in BOB is so on target it seemed like an excellent choice.

 

Theala

 

Mental Defense and Damage Reduction represent whatever you want them to represent. You can define the sfx however you want.

 

Okay. Deep breath. Clear your mind and meditate with me. Forget the names of all the powers. We'll call them Power #1, Power #2, Power #3, and Power #4. If we get caught up in the names, we get confused (I once thought that Clinging was the power that my girlfriend at the time had. Then I read the power description and found out that it was something else). We can define the sfx of any of these 4 powers however we want. We can call an RKA "Lightning Bolt" or "Fireball" or even "I once took of my skate and tried to stab somebody". We can do the same with Powers #1, 2, 3, and 4. So how do we know which power is appropriate? We forget the names of these powers, and we look at the game effects. What does Power #1 actually do, according to the description? Well, it does X. Is X the exact effect we're looking for? No? Then we keep looking.

 

Invisibility makes it difficult to be detected with senses. Once you're detected, however, or if someone makes a nontargeting perception roll, then they're only at a -1 to hit you. That's all it does. If you're invisible to sight, and I shoot you with my 10D6 RKA "Laservision", you don't get a single point of defense, even though your Invisibility "bends light". Invisibility makes it hard to target you. It does nothing else.

 

Shapeshift, like Images, makes you appear to be something else. However, if you have Shapeshifted to appear to be a rock, and I shoot you with my 10D6 RKA "Laservision", I will see a rock that bleeds all over the street. Shapeshift makes you appear to be something else on the surface. It does nothing else.

 

Mental Defense provides you with defenses against mental attacks. To quote the book "A character with Mental Defense is resistant to mental attacks--he can withstand some of the effects of Mental Powers. Some examples of Mental Defense include psionic shields or extremely strong willpower." There is nothing about keeping someone "out". Mental Defense helps you to resist mental powers. It does nothing else.

 

Damage Reduction reduces the amount of effect that gets through a character's defenses. It does nothing else.

 

So, you want a character who is able to resist Telepathy. Don't make the mistake of going into over-think. Don't over-analyze or you'll drive yourself crazy. You want to resist mental attacks? Take the power that is designed specifically for that purpose--Mental Defense.

 

40 points Mental Defense "Mind Blank spell"

only vs telepathy (provides generic 'surface' thoughts) (-1)

 

Easy.

[Warp9]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

I know. And I'm glad it works for you, but I think that you're stretching the definitions of what Invisibility and Shape Shift do per the game rules. I, as a GM, would say "Hmm... I think I know what she's trying to do here, but the powers don't work that way."

 

*snip*

Some very good points!

 

The only thing I might add is that you could even make the Mental Defense more specific--only works to stop mind reading (that way the Telepath could still send thoughts) .

[SteveZilla]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Some very good points!

 

The only thing I might add is that you could even make the Mental Defense more specific--only works to stop mind reading (that way the Telepath could still send thoughts) .

 

I'd call that a -0 Limitation at best. Telepathy can't send into the Deep, Hidden Thoughts/Memory/Subconscious levels. And sending "Surface Thoughts" doesn't do anything to the target.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

I agree that the MD+DR could work with the SFX. The attacker, "gets in," but isn't effective once there because of the defenses. What does it matter? The end result is the same: the Telepathy doesn't work (or doesn't work as well as it should perhaps).

 

However, while I think that is the simplest, most straightforward solution, I don't think there is anything wrong with the Invisibility/Shapeshift approach either. The only thing that could get in the way is that this approach obviously is subject to a lot of interpretation, so you would have to really make sure the GM understands and approves of it (unless, of course, you are the GM).

[sbarron]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

40 points Mental Defense "Mind Blank spell"

only vs telepathy (provides generic 'surface' thoughts) (-1)

 

Easy.

I totally agree with this build and the explanation of why it is best way. The sfx of why the "mind blank" thwarts telepaths is not important. The fact that it does is what matters.

 

Theala, try thinking of it this way. A telepath that achieves EGO+ on his telepathy roll can be considered to be "getting in." The 40 points of effect above that is the range where the telepath is being decieved by the "mind blank," which is represented by the mental defense. Any effect above that results in the telepath actually overcoming the mind blank and reading real thoughts.

[Warp9]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

I agree that the MD+DR could work with the SFX. The attacker, "gets in," but isn't effective once there because of the defenses. What does it matter? The end result is the same: the Telepathy doesn't work (or doesn't work as well as it should perhaps).

 

However, while I think that is the simplest, most straightforward solution, I don't think there is anything wrong with the Invisibility/Shapeshift approach either. The only thing that could get in the way is that this approach obviously is subject to a lot of interpretation, so you would have to really make sure the GM understands and approves of it (unless, of course, you are the GM).

My problems with the Invisibility/Shapeshift approach are that it creates a "double jeopardy" problem for Telepathy. Telepathy much now follow all the limitations of a sense (affected by Invisibility, Shape Shift, etc. . . ), and all the limitations of an attack (must make an attack roll and overcome defenses).

 

First of all, this situation is unfair to the Telepath. But that is not the end of the problem. This situation also creates a problem for defenders.

 

Lets say two Players named Stan and Dan each want to create a character who is very resistant to mind reading.

 

Stan defends against it as if it were a sense (Invisibility to Mental Powers, no fringe, 0 end, Persistant, with the limitation only to stop Mind Reading).

 

Dan defends against it as though it were a mental attack (buys a HUGE amount of Mental Defense, double hardened, with the limitation only to stop Mind Reading)

 

Stan's character is now totally immune to any amount of mind reading (after all his thoughts are now totally invisible to any Telepath, no matter how powerful).

 

Dan may have invested far more points in his defense, but his character is not immune to mind reading.

 

Maybe some people like the idea that a clever rules rapist can get far more effect by spending less points--but I do not agree.

 

For my money, powers like Shape Shift and Invisibility should never compensate for buying other powers. IMO Neither of these things should ever take the place of buying real defense, and if they do, then there is something wrong.

 

Assuming that Telepathy is going to be considered a mental attack, the only fair answer is to force Stan to also buy a real defense (like Mental Defense or Mental Damage Reduction) for his character.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

My problems with the Invisibility/Shapeshift approach are that it creates a "double jeopardy" problem for Telepathy. Telepathy much now follow all the limitations of a sense (affected by Invisibility, Shape Shift, etc. . . ), and all the limitations of an attack (must make an attack roll and overcome defenses).

 

First of all, this situation is unfair to the Telepath. But that is not the end of the problem. This situation also creates a problem for defenders.

 

Lets say two Players named Stan and Dan each want to create a character who is very resistant to mind reading.

 

Stan defends against it as if it were a sense (Invisibility to Mental Powers, no fringe, 0 end, Persistant, with the limitation only to stop Mind Reading).

 

Dan defends against it as though it were a mental attack (buys a HUGE amount of Mental Defense, double hardened, with the limitation only to stop Mind Reading)

 

Stan's character is now totally immune to any amount of mind reading (after all his thoughts are now totally invisible to any Telepath, no matter how powerful).

 

Dan may have invested far more points in his defense, but his character is not immune to mind reading.

 

Maybe some people like the idea that a clever rules rapist can get far more effect by spending less points--but I do not agree.

 

For my money, powers like Shape Shift and Invisibility should never compensate for buying other powers. IMO Neither of these things should ever take the place of buying real defense, and if they do, then there is something wrong.

 

Assuming that Telepathy is going to be considered a mental attack, the only fair answer is to force Stan to also buy a real defense (like Mental Defense or Mental Damage Reduction) for his character.

Oh, I agree completely. However, it is synonymous to whether you buy large amounts of PD or Invisibility to Sight; or something completely different that might cost fewer points than an adequate defense, such as Images or Desolidification. I would require that there be similar means to get around a mental Invisibility as a normal one: allow an attack at reduced ECV; allow other senses to compensate somehow. Something like that.

 

If you really want the attacker to be unable to have effect at all even once the attack succeeds, I call that a form of Desolidification, not Invisibility. So allow a Mental Desolidification that doesn't protect against physical attacks, just like normal Desolidification doesn't protect against mental attacks. Any Mental Powers the character possessed would have to have Affects Physical World. There should also probably be some way to get around it, just as with normal Desolidification.

[The Monster]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

The other thing I was thinking of' date=' was Shape Shift (Mental Group), to make your thoughts seem uninteresting. Should be pretty cheap actually.[/quote']

 

This is pretty much where my thoughts went looking over this thread - the Mind Blank spell would be a Transform (Major?), into a different class of mind, call it Magically-Altered or something. Effective permanence is simply a matter of adjusting the fade rate (plus, it gives you the option of making the spell end if a princess kisses him (that probably would scramble some of *my* metnal defenses) or whatever, for a story hook). It's still an expensive spell (at least in Active cost - pile on limitations to make it a cheaper ritual), and specialized enough that PCs probably won't spend a lot of points on it. If you make it a Transform vs EGO instead of vs BODY (an obvious rules twiddle, and neatly point-equivalent), then it actually becomes harder for mages and mentalists to benefit from this than brutes, which has a certain poetic justice IMO.

This also opens a way for mentalists to overcome the defense if they're insightful and dedicated enough ("wise in the ways of the Force...") to justify buying a power or modifier to let them affect the "Magically-Altered" class of mind. Doing that should require specific GM approval, plus a skill roll and/or extra END cost.

 

Of course, there's the question for the rules wonks: if someone does Mind Scan/Telepathy/etc., but doesn't know their target is a different mind class, do they discover that, or do they just end up mentally staring at something that just ain't there? I get the idea that it might be kind of like looking through IR goggles for something the is exactly the same termperature as the stuff around it - it just wouldn't register at all (which could be a bit wiggy if you're looking at him with your natural eyeballs).