How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

[ThealaSildorian]

I'm currently working on converting an AD&D character to Hero System. This character has had a permanent mind blank spell cast on him: the result of which is anyone who tries to read his mind reads only uninteresting or trivial thoughts.

 

I'm trying to figure out how to translate this to Hero terms. I thought about buying Invisibility to Mental Senses, Telepathy Only (-1/2), no fringe for 15 pts.

 

I know I could simply buy lots of Mental Defense, but this isn't the answer. Mental Defense is fairly easy to overcome, especially in a fantasy game. And the special effect of the spell is supposed to be an automatic thing.

 

I did think maybe Mental Illusions might be a better choice. Any ideas?

 

Theala

[Steve Long]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Since this is a "how to" and not a rules question per se, I've moved it to the "Discussion" board so that Herodom Assembled can offer its many and varied opinions. What do you think, peoples?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Well, I guess it's fair Steve wouldn't know, since I read his mind as soon as I saw this post in Rules Discussion...and sure enough, it's been moved.

 

I'm inclined to agree you can be Invisible to telepathy and leave it at that. Another approach would be boosted Ego and Damage Reduction versus Telepathy only. Try getting past a 30 EGO when your Telepathy is reduced to 75%.

 

Which approach probably depends on whether you want Telepathy to be effective. If you allow the Invisibility approach, pretty much anyopne who wants to buy the ability will be able to do so since it is only 15 points. If, instead, you require sufficient Mental Defense/Ego/Damage Reduction to make telepathy ineffective, the cost becomes pretty steep so very few people will have this ability.

[Fox1]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Telepathy and Mind Scanning are not standard sense powers and don't follow the standard sense rules. You don't make perception rolls to read minds. Given this, it's hard to rationally justify invisibility or images being useful on them.

 

I have two suggestions.

 

Option 1:

 

Approach it from the other side. Put a limit on any Telepathy bought in the game that it is ineffective against Mental Defense equal to or exceeding value X.

 

You have your needed absolute there, and without bending any rules. You can apply the same concept to any number of other poweres requiring such absolutes.

 

 

Option 2:

 

In any attempt to do a AD&D conversion, you're going to run into the fact that AD&D loves absolutes and rule overrides and HERO doesn't. The two games are very different in their approach to that point.

 

So you're going to have to accept the one concept or the other- and flatly break with the other game on it.

 

So with that in mind, do it however you want. Just be aware that anyone who selected the other way will likely consider your constructions illegal.

[RDU Neil]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

I'm currently working on converting an AD&D character to Hero System. This character has had a permanent mind blank spell cast on him: the result of which is anyone who tries to read his mind reads only uninteresting or trivial thoughts.

 

I'm trying to figure out how to translate this to Hero terms. I thought about buying Invisibility to Mental Senses, Telepathy Only (-1/2), no fringe for 15 pts.

 

I know I could simply buy lots of Mental Defense, but this isn't the answer. Mental Defense is fairly easy to overcome, especially in a fantasy game. And the special effect of the spell is supposed to be an automatic thing.

 

I did think maybe Mental Illusions might be a better choice. Any ideas?

 

Theala

 

Once again, this is a question of how to create an "absolute effect" and that is not something Hero is designed to do. I personally like this about Hero, because absolute only exists until something is powerful enough to break it comes along. An immovable object is only immovable until something strong enough to move it shows up.

 

Now... as to the best way to APPROXIMATE this in Hero... I'd go with Damage Reduction - Mental. I've never allowed this power, because just a little bit of it makes most Mental Powers useless, by reducing their effect way below Ego + whatever needed.

 

Something like 75% Mental Damage Reduction, Only vs. Telepathy... that would likely keep anything but Cosmic Level telepathy from getting more than just above Ego. Therefore, all they get is surface thoughts at best.

 

I'm also interested in why you think "Lots of Mental Defense" is easy to overcome in a Fantasy game. Heck, it is often not easy to overcome in a supers game where that is a known factor... let alone Fantasy. I'm actually intrigued why you think this to be true?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

I'm also interested in why you think "Lots of Mental Defense" is easy to overcome in a Fantasy game. Heck' date=' it is often not easy to overcome in a supers game where that is a known factor... let alone Fantasy. I'm actually intrigued why you think this to be true?[/quote']

 

Penetraing Cumulative mental powers? So it takes an hour - I know everything the target/prisoner had to tell me. If I'm scanning him through my Crystal Ball, I have all the time in the world, and my target just thinks he or she had a bad dream.

[RDU Neil]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Penetraing Cumulative mental powers? So it takes an hour - I know everything the target/prisoner had to tell me. If I'm scanning him through my Crystal Ball' date=' I have all the time in the world, and my target just thinks he or she had a bad dream.[/quote']

 

Such an attack isn't specific to a fantasy campaign... it is simply a munchkin build for mental attacks that would be seriously frowned at in any genre. Also... nothing about a build like that is "easy." It is a very nuanced, granular build that is highly specialized.

 

As to the crystal ball... doesn't matter if it is long distance... as soon as you are hit by a mental attack, you know you've been attacked... so you'd already have to have +30 to make it "not noticed" which is really next to impossible against 75% DR.

 

Again... not saying it can't be done. We are imagining stuff here... ANYTHING is possible... but I was intrigued as to why she seemed to consider it so easy for Fantasy in particular. (In fact, her post kind of implies that it is easy in Fantasy as a genre... not so much as Fantasy Hero. Like ANY Fantasy genre game would be "easy" to bypass mental defense. That just makes me curious, is all.)

[ThealaSildorian]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Since this is a "how to" and not a rules question per se' date=' I've moved it to the "Discussion" board so that Herodom Assembled can offer its many and varied opinions. What do you think, peoples?[/quote']

 

My apologies and my thanks. I figured since I was asking a question on how to create a power, that made it a rules question. It was late when I wrote my original post, DOH!

 

Theala

[ThealaSildorian]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Well, I guess it's fair Steve wouldn't know, since I read his mind as soon as I saw this post in Rules Discussion...and sure enough, it's been moved.

 

I'm inclined to agree you can be Invisible to telepathy and leave it at that. Another approach would be boosted Ego and Damage Reduction versus Telepathy only. Try getting past a 30 EGO when your Telepathy is reduced to 75%.

 

Which approach probably depends on whether you want Telepathy to be effective. If you allow the Invisibility approach, pretty much anyopne who wants to buy the ability will be able to do so since it is only 15 points. If, instead, you require sufficient Mental Defense/Ego/Damage Reduction to make telepathy ineffective, the cost becomes pretty steep so very few people will have this ability.

 

Well, this character is meant to be an NPC, so the GM (meaning me) doesn't have to allow players to buy that, assuming they think of it, and assuming they can formulate a reason why they'd be able to do it--I should think only very powerful spellcasters could do it since mind bland an 8th level spell.

 

Mental Damag Reduction is a possibility I hadn't considered, would be far more effective than simply tons of Mental Defense. Though I'm not sure either really fit the special effect that person attempting to read a mind would view only trivial or uninteresting thoughts, which is the special effect of the . It's more than simply a matter of absolute effect (which are near impossible to achieve in Hero). If someone uses Telepathy and can't get in, he knows he's being blocked by Defenses, doesn't he?

 

Theala

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

As to the crystal ball... doesn't matter if it is long distance... as soon as you are hit by a mental attack' date=' you know you've been attacked... so you'd already have to have +30 to make it "not noticed" which is really next to impossible against 75% DR.[/quote']

 

IPE, although I believe you need to buy it separately for "while it accumulates" to prevent the target noticing. Small cumulative dice take a long time to have an effect, but advantages stack pretty cheap.

 

Again... not saying it can't be done. We are imagining stuff here... ANYTHING is possible... but I was intrigued as to why she seemed to consider it so easy for Fantasy in particular. (In fact' date=' her post kind of implies that it is easy in Fantasy as a genre... not so much as Fantasy Hero. Like ANY Fantasy genre game would be "easy" to bypass mental defense. That just makes me curious, is all.)[/quote']

 

I'd be more inclined to accept it in a fantasy game, simply because it is genre. The crystal ball, unnpoticed, eventually succeeds. In a Supers game, it doesn't really fit.

[ThealaSildorian]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Telepathy and Mind Scanning are not standard sense powers and don't follow the standard sense rules. You don't make perception rolls to read minds. Given this' date=' it's hard to rationally justify invisibility or images being useful on them. [/quote']

 

Good point, though I would argue that mental illusions are a form of "images" that simply follow different rules--for the reason you outlined.

 

 

I have two suggestions.

 

Option 1:

 

Approach it from the other side. Put a limit on any Telepathy bought in the game that it is ineffective against Mental Defense equal to or exceeding value X.

 

 

Interesting idea, and if I were going to keep this character strictly for my private use I would. However, I have thoughts of sharing this character with other people, and he needs to be able to be used in other people's games or at conventions.

 

 

 

Option 2:

 

In any attempt to do a AD&D conversion, you're going to run into the fact that AD&D loves absolutes and rule overrides and HERO doesn't. The two games are very different in their approach to that point.

 

So you're going to have to accept the one concept or the other- and flatly break with the other game on it.

 

So with that in mind, do it however you want. Just be aware that anyone who selected the other way will likely consider your constructions illegal.

 

I don't think I need to "flatly break" the Hero System. Even if I go with Invisibility or Mental Illusions some clever player will probably come up with a way around it. Invisibiility always gets a Perception roll, even if bought No Fringe. Hmm. I'm beginning to think I should look closer at Mental Illusions, Trigged by Telepathy, which still needs to overcome EGO to work.

 

What I'm most looking for is the best way to structure the Power that fits the special effect. While te AD&D spell is an "absolute", and I do want to come as close to that as I can, I know from experience it's impossible.

 

Theala

[ThealaSildorian]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

 

I'm also interested in why you think "Lots of Mental Defense" is easy to overcome in a Fantasy game. Heck, it is often not easy to overcome in a supers game where that is a known factor... let alone Fantasy. I'm actually intrigued why you think this to be true?

 

Because that was my experience in my GM's Colonial Marines game, a Heroic level game with lots of Mental Powers flying around. If you weren't an esper you were screwed. If you were an esper you had a better chance, but even then you didn't have a lot of Mental Defense because it wasn't a Superheroic level game, so there was always a good chance you'd be affected. Fantasy characters have a harder time justifying Mental Defense, so Mental Powers, IMHO work much better for the mentalist in a Heroic game than a Superheroic. Other than that I agree with you--in a Supers game, mentalists are often handicapped--sure LOS makes it easy for them to hit, but achieving effect on those tables is always a pain.

 

Theala

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Well' date=' this character is meant to be an NPC, so the GM (meaning me) doesn't have to allow players to buy that, assuming they think of it, and assuming they can formulate a reason why they'd be able to do it--I should think only very powerful spellcasters could do it since mind bland an 8th level spell.[/quote']

 

If it requires a powerful spellcaster, shouldn't it be expensive? And even more so to make it a permanent effect? That's one line of reasoning, anyway. I've also never been a fan of the approach that it's a very easy, inexpensive effect which one or more NPC's can have, but is prohibited, or more costly, to PC's. Of course, points are no object to an NPC anyway, so a cost of 200 points matched by 200 bonus xp isn't really any different.

 

Mental Damag Reduction is a possibility I hadn't considered' date=' would be far more effective than simply tons of Mental Defense. Though I'm not sure either really fit the special effect that person attempting to read a mind would view only trivial or uninteresting thoughts, which is the special effect of the . It's more than simply a matter of absolute effect (which are near impossible to achieve in Hero). If someone uses Telepathy and can't get in, he knows he's being blocked by Defenses, doesn't he?[/quote']

 

In general, I'd say he knows because he doesn't get what he's looking for. Trivia will likely be recognized for a blockage at some point, which could just be the SFX of the defense or reduction.

 

Another option would be a mental illusions damage shield. That would be pretty pricy, but could cause the mind reader to think all he gets is trivia (effectively disguising the character's thoughts and memories).

 

A number of people have noted absolute effects are tough to do. I find they're also expensive.

[Vondy]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

I use a tinfoil hat, personally. As such, telepathy should be built with "not versus tinfoil hats" (a common albeit kooky object, -1/2).

[Fox1]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Interesting idea' date=' and if I were going to keep this character strictly for my private use I would. However, I have thoughts of sharing this character with other people, and he needs to be able to be used in other people's games or at conventions.[/quote']

 

If the entire spell list (including the telepathy spells one is defending against) are given with the character- it would seem to me to be self-contained.

 

If however you're interested in porting the character to other settings/campaigns, I can see the reason for only approaching it from the defense side.

 

Of course in that case I also see a solid reason for giving up on absolutes, after all they only apply in his original setting by definition

 

 

 

 

 

Hmm. I'm beginning to think I should look closer at Mental Illusions' date=' Trigged by Telepathy, which still needs to overcome EGO to work.[/quote']

 

Mental Illusion- Damage Shield. Only vs. Telepathy. Only to feedback "nothing interesting here".

 

Not an absolute. Expensive in terms of Active Points. You have to overcome the attacker's EGO and Mental Defense. But a workable solution.

[sbarron]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Mental Defense (40 points total) (38 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about two-thirds of its effectiveness (Only vs. Telepathy (attacker reads only useless surface thoughts); -1 1/2) 15 Real Points

 

This should totally cover the NPC up through 8 or 9 dice cumulative and 15 dice non-cumulative, depending on EGO.

 

If you just wanted to create a power to reflect the mind blank, I dont' think it should not be any cheaper than this ability (like limited invisibility, or whatever else you cook up).

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Since someone trying to read his mind won't know they've not succeeded -- "reads only trivial or uninteresting thoughts" then what you probably need is this:

 

40 points of Mental Defense, Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible), Only vs. Telepathy with the Special Effect that instead of not getting a connection, they think they do, and get trivial stuff.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

The best way to scupper mental powers is via the breakout rule. Buy +15 levels breakout rolls only v telepathy and you can get hold of the mind but it will slip from your grasp before you can read it. Obviously you'll have to ban negative levels unless you want a way to overcome the mind blank. Have a limitation that you always have to use it at full value (+0).

 

I'd say 'Only v Telepathy' is a -2, probably, so 15 points would get you +15 with your breakout rolls. (or 19 points if you make it inherent so it can't be drained or dispelled)

 

This being HERO there are ways around it but it is the cheapest and easiest way to do it within the rules.

 

Hope that is of some use?

[OddHat]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Mental Damag Reduction is a possibility I hadn't considered' date=' would be far more effective than simply tons of Mental Defense. Though I'm not sure either really fit the special effect that person attempting to read a mind would view only trivial or uninteresting thoughts, which is the special effect of the . It's more than simply a matter of absolute effect (which are near impossible to achieve in Hero). If someone uses Telepathy and can't get in, he knows he's being blocked by Defenses, doesn't he?[/quote']

 

3/4 Damage Reduction Mental, only vs Telepathy(-1), will do it, and at a reasonable price. Even if the character has only a 14 EGO, 12d6 of Telepathy is on average only going to barely touch the most trivial of thoughts. However, if you really want to, you can add Invisible Power Effects: Hide Effects of power to the Damage Reduction, with the special effect that the telepathy only uncovers trivial thoughts. It ups the final cost a bit, but it would still be affordable if a PC really wanted to save up for it in a Hgh Fantasy campaign.

 

Personally, I wouldn't bother with the IPE.

[ThealaSildorian]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

IPE, although I believe you need to buy it separately for "while it accumulates" to prevent the target noticing. Small cumulative dice take a long time to have an effect, but advantages stack pretty cheap.

 

 

 

I'd be more inclined to accept it in a fantasy game, simply because it is genre. The crystal ball, unnpoticed, eventually succeeds. In a Supers game, it doesn't really fit.

 

True, but even in a Heroic level game you have to pay for everything--nothing is assumed :sigh:

 

Theala

[ThealaSildorian]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Mental Defense (40 points total) (38 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about two-thirds of its effectiveness (Only vs. Telepathy (attacker reads only useless surface thoughts); -1 1/2) 15 Real Points

 

This should totally cover the NPC up through 8 or 9 dice cumulative and 15 dice non-cumulative, depending on EGO.

 

If you just wanted to create a power to reflect the mind blank, I dont' think it should not be any cheaper than this ability (like limited invisibility, or whatever else you cook up).

 

Well, bear in mind, this character is meant to be an NPC (a major badass villain btw). If I, the player, were to attempt to "scry" his mind to determine his motivations for X, and I rolled enough dice on Telepathy to get through, then Mental Defense either works, or it doesn't. A mentalist would know if his attack were successful or not, if he "got in," because that's the whole purpose of the Telepathy table. If my GM said to me, "well, you only read pretty trivial thoughts" then I would believe I only rolled a certain effect on the Telepathy table. I might let it go at that, not take the risk of trying to "go deeper." If later, I found out that my attack failed altogether and the GM misled me, I'd be really angry--because I should know if I overcome the target's defenses or not. If, OTOH, the GM says to me well, his thoughts are pretty trivial and I realize I am the target of a rebound Mental Illusion, or I can't get past something else then that's a different story. This is why I'm reluctant to use Mental Defense or Damage Reduction.

 

Theala

[ThealaSildorian]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

The best way to scupper mental powers is via the breakout rule. Buy +15 levels breakout rolls only v telepathy and you can get hold of the mind but it will slip from your grasp before you can read it. Obviously you'll have to ban negative levels unless you want a way to overcome the mind blank. Have a limitation that you always have to use it at full value (+0).

 

I'd say 'Only v Telepathy' is a -2, probably, so 15 points would get you +15 with your breakout rolls. (or 19 points if you make it inherent so it can't be drained or dispelled)

 

This being HERO there are ways around it but it is the cheapest and easiest way to do it within the rules.

 

Hope that is of some use?

 

Ah, now there's a clever idea I hadn't thought of. Yes, that could work. Hmm.

 

Theala

[ThealaSildorian]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

Since someone trying to read his mind won't know they've not succeeded -- "reads only trivial or uninteresting thoughts" then what you probably need is this:

 

40 points of Mental Defense, Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible), Only vs. Telepathy with the Special Effect that instead of not getting a connection, they think they do, and get trivial stuff.

 

I also hadn't thought of adding IPE to MD. That, and the Breakout idea combined might be the way to go.

 

Thinking cap on . . . .

 

Thanks everyone for all the great feedback so far--Everyone's responses, whether I agreed with them or not, have been of immense use. Please keep the ideas coming :widegrin:

 

Theala

[RDU Neil]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

The best way to scupper mental powers is via the breakout rule. Buy +15 levels breakout rolls only v telepathy and you can get hold of the mind but it will slip from your grasp before you can read it. Obviously you'll have to ban negative levels unless you want a way to overcome the mind blank. Have a limitation that you always have to use it at full value (+0).

 

I'd say 'Only v Telepathy' is a -2, probably, so 15 points would get you +15 with your breakout rolls. (or 19 points if you make it inherent so it can't be drained or dispelled)

 

This being HERO there are ways around it but it is the cheapest and easiest way to do it within the rules.

 

Hope that is of some use?

 

This would be really slick. Nice idea.

 

For my campaign, it would never work, because I've done away with the automatic breakout attempt, because it made Mental Powers all but useless in my play experience. There is always an initial "effect" if it hits and gets past defenses. The first break out roll comes as zero phase on their next action.

 

Nice idea by the book, though. I'll see if I can rep you!

 

Damn... not yet... but I owe you.

[Fox1]

Re: How do you Keep from having your Mind Read?

 

For my campaign' date=' it would never work, because I've done away with the automatic breakout attempt, because it made Mental Powers all but useless in my play experience. There is always an initial "effect" if it hits and gets past defenses. The first break out roll comes as zero phase on their next action. [/quote']

 

This is the way I run it as well, and for the same reasons.