DEX: and the Marvel Universe

[Agent X]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

I would be inclined to disagree. If you go back and read some old issuee, he didn't really do anything that would require all that high of an acrobatics check. Many of of the stunts he did I could see being acomplished by somone with 30 or less DEX, some super leaping, some clinging and a decent Danger Sense roll.

 

Plus, he's been tagged on many occasions by relativly normal villians, like Doc Ock and the Kingpin. If you give Spidy a really, really high dex, you have to compensate by either giving all his rogues amazing DEX scores of their own or skads of combat skill levels. Or lots of AoE attacks.

They often hit from ambush. Doc Ock hits because he ought to have some levels with all those arms flailing at you. Kingpin often picks up stuff that I would rule would affect a hex to whack Spidey with or waits until someone softens up Spidey. One thing Hero doesn't do well is incrementally modify a character's ability to avoid being hit based on the degree of exhaustion the character is feeling.

 

However, there is no doubt in my mind that, over the years, Spidy has accumulated many skill levels. I beleive my CU level writeup for him has something like +3 to All Agility Skills, +3 All Combat, +4 DCV (Requires a Danger Sense Roll), Defense Maneuver IV and a fair amount of martial arts maneuvers. This is all tacked onto a character that has a 35 DEX, so were looking at an Acrobatics roll of 19 and a DCV, without maneuver bonuses, of 16-19.

 

This means he only rarely get's nailed by most opponents, would have to play defensivly against somone very skilled like Cap or Taskmaster and potentially gets the snot kicked out of him by someone like Venom or Green Gobilin, both of whom have ways to negate his Danger Sense and thus dramatically lower his DCV.

 

This is all IMO of course.

This stuff makes sense to me. Doesn't really decide where his Dex should be though.

[shaunclinton]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Howdy all, I thought we'd pretty much figured out where Spidey's DEX is?

 

Anyway, my new proposal is this...

 

27 DEX (don't shoot! don't shoot!)

+9 DEX, Linked to Danger Sense

+2 DCV, Requires a Danger Sense Roll

+2 DCV, Requires an Acrobatics Roll

+2 DCV, Requires an Acrobatics and Danger Sense Roll

 

I'll leave getting into the levels part other than that, but I'd probably give Spidey one or two overall levels plus maybe a couple of others for various commonly used schticks.

 

Now, before you flame me, here's my logic...

 

Spidey seems far better in combat with his Danger Sense than without. On the occasions he's lost his Spidey-sense or hasn't been able to use it against a foe he tends to get nailed often, be on the back foot, react after them and doesn't seem to be all that hot it general. In general without his Spidey sense he seems easier to hit than the likes of Captain America and it seems to make a huge difference to his fighting capabilities. However, against foes like Venom he still seems to be very competent, but is slightly easier to hit, which this set-up tries to emulate.

 

So that's why the extra DEX, he sense what they're up to, etc. can hit more easily and it also adds to his Acrobatics skill for the purposes of the DCV bonus. As when his DS is operating it's often shown that it tells him how to twist in the air to avoid an attack and the like. The extra DEX also allows him to have a better chance of getting out of AoE attacks and the like as Spidey sense should do.

 

The DCV based on Danger Sense is obvious enough in its function.

 

The Acrobatics DCV represents the fact that Spidey's maneuverability comes into play a lot. When he has space to maneuver (even a smallish space) he can dodge almost anything. When he's bounding about he's almost unhittable. However when his movement (and thus Acrobatics) is hindered, when he's trapped in a super tight corner or when he decides to make a huge leap to save someone and can't change direction in mid-air he's easier to hit. So the acrobatics represents this... sometimes Spidey will be doing something that precludes the Acrobatics roll and he'll struggle to get out of the way.

 

The twisting in the air and the like mentioned above is the reason why he has the DCV dependent on both skill rolls coming off as it covers the Acrobatics above, but they're always shown to be more successful in concert with DS.

 

What do you think? When this Spidey is trying to avoid being hit he can Dodge with a DCV of 21, 23 if you give him Martial Dodge (but that's a whole other ball game! ) which seems about high enough to assure he can dodge even the best of the rest of the MU.

 

What do you think?

[Mister E]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Since Captain America seems like such a perfect base line for determining combat ability, in relation to attributes and training...

 

...Has Captain America ever been in combat with Spider-Man? And if so, was Spidey fighting back, or just trying to Dodge everything?

 

And the big question: did Cap ever connect on Spider-Man with any of his attacks?

 

Can anyone shed some light on any of these questions?

[MitchellS]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Since Captain America seems like such a perfect base line for determining combat ability, in relation to attributes and training...

 

...Has Captain America ever been in combat with Spider-Man? And if so, was Spidey fighting back, or just trying to Dodge everything?

 

And the big question: did Cap ever connect on Spider-Man with any of his attacks?

 

Can anyone shed some light on any of these questions?

The only combat I remember was in ASM #187. It was basically Spidey dodging and Cap blocking with his shield until they decided to work together.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Howdy all, I thought we'd pretty much figured out where Spidey's DEX is?

 

Anyway, my new proposal is this...

 

27 DEX (don't shoot! don't shoot!)

+9 DEX, Linked to Danger Sense

+2 DCV, Requires a Danger Sense Roll

+2 DCV, Requires an Acrobatics Roll

+2 DCV, Requires an Acrobatics and Danger Sense Roll

 

I'll leave getting into the levels part other than that, but I'd probably give Spidey one or two overall levels plus maybe a couple of others for various commonly used schticks.

 

Now, before you flame me, here's my logic...

 

Spidey seems far better in combat with his Danger Sense than without. On the occasions he's lost his Spidey-sense or hasn't been able to use it against a foe he tends to get nailed often, be on the back foot, react after them and doesn't seem to be all that hot it general. In general without his Spidey sense he seems easier to hit than the likes of Captain America and it seems to make a huge difference to his fighting capabilities. However, against foes like Venom he still seems to be very competent, but is slightly easier to hit, which this set-up tries to emulate.

 

So that's why the extra DEX, he sense what they're up to, etc. can hit more easily and it also adds to his Acrobatics skill for the purposes of the DCV bonus. As when his DS is operating it's often shown that it tells him how to twist in the air to avoid an attack and the like. The extra DEX also allows him to have a better chance of getting out of AoE attacks and the like as Spidey sense should do.

 

The DCV based on Danger Sense is obvious enough in its function.

 

The Acrobatics DCV represents the fact that Spidey's maneuverability comes into play a lot. When he has space to maneuver (even a smallish space) he can dodge almost anything. When he's bounding about he's almost unhittable. However when his movement (and thus Acrobatics) is hindered, when he's trapped in a super tight corner or when he decides to make a huge leap to save someone and can't change direction in mid-air he's easier to hit. So the acrobatics represents this... sometimes Spidey will be doing something that precludes the Acrobatics roll and he'll struggle to get out of the way.

 

The twisting in the air and the like mentioned above is the reason why he has the DCV dependent on both skill rolls coming off as it covers the Acrobatics above, but they're always shown to be more successful in concert with DS.

 

What do you think? When this Spidey is trying to avoid being hit he can Dodge with a DCV of 21, 23 if you give him Martial Dodge (but that's a whole other ball game! ) which seems about high enough to assure he can dodge even the best of the rest of the MU.

 

What do you think?

A reasonable use of logic.

 

Does anyone know if Spidey has ever gone 1on1 vs. any of Marvel's true Speedsters? (Quicksilver, Northstar, Whizzer, etc..) And if so was he able to dodge their 'super-speed' attacks?

 

HM

[MitchellS]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

A reasonable use of logic.

 

Does anyone know if Spidey has ever gone 1on1 vs. any of Marvel's true Speedsters? (Quicksilver, Northstar, Whizzer, etc..) And if so was he able to dodge their 'super-speed' attacks?

 

HM

ASM #71. Quicksilver tries to prove to the Avengers he's a good guy by taking on Spidey. Quicksilver tags him several time, IIRC. The cover has him running around Spidey and hitting him 4-5 times. I believe Quicksilver was stopped by the webs and then they come to the typical understanding. It's been too many years since I read it though to be 100% sure.

[Starlord]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

He faced Speed Demon and had a little trouble catching up to him at first, but easily finished him off after that.

[Enforcer84]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

He faced Speed Demon and had a little trouble catching up to him at first' date=' but easily finished him off after that.[/quote']

YOu mean the Fabulous Frog Man got him!

Speed Demon had both Spiderman and the Human Torch on the ropes!!!

[MitchellS]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

YOu mean the Fabulous Frog Man got him!

Speed Demon had both Spiderman and the Human Torch on the ropes!!!

Yeah, I had forgotten about that. Marvel Team-up #121. Speed Demon is kicking their butt until they are saved by Frog-man.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

He fell on him!

 

He fell on him!

 

That is Luck!

 

Speed Demon shoulda had em both if not for that Eugene kid and his unncontrollable leaping.

 

:grin:

 

Hawksmoor

[Starlord]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

YOu mean the Fabulous Frog Man got him!

Speed Demon had both Spiderman and the Human Torch on the ropes!!!

 

Different ish. This fight took place in a dept. store.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

I see this thread is still going, so I dropped back in to browse...

 

Personally' date=' my belief is that Spider-Man, without the extra training of added Skill Levels in Acrobatics, has at least a 20- Skill Roll, which (quote), "[i']amazes[/i] even other skilled practitioners." Spider-Man should not have to have +3 Skill Levels in Acrobatics, to fall into this zone of ability.

 

Here is something that I simply do not grasp at all: why do people (Mister E, Agent X, and probably other alphabetically named persons) insist on setting the stats of published characters (like Spider-Man) as if no points have been spent on any skills? That makes no sense. It's just wonky. If you want a high roll, you buy up the roll. That's how Hero works. Characters do not have to have stats in the stratosphere in order to have good rolls, especially when the result is patently absurd (such as giving even relatively normal people well-beyond human-level stats).

 

I don't know if it's a style of play, or if some people just skimmed that part of the book and don't realize that you can buy up skills (and skill levels), or what, but it's really quite goofy.

[Mister E]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

I see this thread is still going, so I dropped back in to browse...

 

 

 

Here is something that I simply do not grasp at all: why do people (Mister E, Agent X, and probably other alphabetically named persons) insist on setting the stats of published characters (like Spider-Man) as if no points have been spent on any skills? That makes no sense. It's just wonky. If you want a high roll, you buy up the roll. That's how Hero works. Characters do not have to have stats in the stratosphere in order to have good rolls, especially when the result is patently absurd (such as giving even relatively normal people well-beyond human-level stats).

 

I don't know if it's a style of play, or if some people just skimmed that part of the book and don't realize that you can buy up skills (and skill levels), or what, but it's really quite goofy.

I see what you're getting at here, and I think you are right, to a point... what I was doing, though, was more of a rules-mechanics exercise to isolate Spider-Man's raw DEX potential, using a hypethetical Acrobatics Skill with no Skill Levels; than actually making a statement of what I thought Spider-Man's actual skill roles and Skill Levels would be.

 

I'm positive that Spider-Man has at least +1...2...3... or even more levels in Acrobatics.

 

It is my opinion, however, that the second that Peter Parker was bit by the radio-active spider, and completed his mutation, he became on par the best acrobats in the history of the human race, even without Skill Levels. And in order to figure what kind of DEX that would require, I performed the above experiment.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

It is my opinion' date=' however, that the second that Peter Parker was bit by the radio-active spider, and completed his mutation, he became on par the best acrobats in the history of the human race, even without Skill Levels. And in order to figure what kind of DEX that would require, I performed the above experiment.[/quote']

 

So, if I understand you correctly, you think that it's reasonable for the radioactive spider to have given Parker an additional 30 points worth of Dex, but not an additional six points in Acrobatics. Is that correct?

 

(This is not a facetious question.)

[Starlord]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

I see this thread is still going, so I dropped back in to browse...

 

 

 

Here is something that I simply do not grasp at all: why do people (Mister E, Agent X, and probably other alphabetically named persons) insist on setting the stats of published characters (like Spider-Man) as if no points have been spent on any skills? That makes no sense. It's just wonky. If you want a high roll, you buy up the roll. That's how Hero works. Characters do not have to have stats in the stratosphere in order to have good rolls, especially when the result is patently absurd (such as giving even relatively normal people well-beyond human-level stats).

 

I don't know if it's a style of play, or if some people just skimmed that part of the book and don't realize that you can buy up skills (and skill levels), or what, but it's really quite goofy.

 

Specifically in the case of Spider-Man, his mutation made him possibly the greatest naturally Dextrous and Agile person on the planet. Due to experience, yes he probably has some skills on top of all that.

[Mister E]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

So, if I understand you correctly, you think that it's reasonable for the radioactive spider to have given Parker an additional 30 points worth of Dex, but not an additional six points in Acrobatics. Is that correct?

 

(This is not a facetious question.)

This is an excellent question.

 

Yes, I was assuming that Peter didn't gain any learned powers from the radio-active spider bite, (and I was thinking of Skills as learned powers). I will admit, however, that it's not unreasonable to assume that much of his superhuman agility is split between DEX and Agility Skill Levels. Do you think of this as some kind of instinctual genetic memory thing? Or maybe just a physiological predilection to Agility Skills? I could maybe swing that way. But why not just give him the DEX? If it's because you don't think he performs well enough in combat to warrent such a high CV, then I can't argue with that.

 

(As a side note: I'm a big fan of +'s to Skills, and Skill Levels, and it bugs me when I see characters build with only the stock base Skills, all of which with Skill Rolls equal to their Attribute Rolls.)

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

I will admit' date=' however, that it's not unreasonable to assume that much of his superhuman agility is split between DEX and Agility Skill Levels. Do you think of this as some kind of instinctual genetic memory thing? Or maybe just a physiological predilection to Agility Skills? I could maybe swing that way.[/quote']

 

Personally, I don't usually make a concrete connection between the special effect of a power and how it's purchased. So, for me, +6 levels with Weaponsmithing could just as easly be "has amazing hand-eye coordination" as it could be "has been a gunsmith for 20 years, and is really good at it now". For me, the numbers on the character sheet don't mean much other than how it works in the game: they don't tell me anything about why it works that way. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, it's just how I have come to look at it.

 

But why not just give him the DEX? If it's because you don't think he performs well enough in combat to warrent such a high CV' date=' then I can't argue with that.[/quote']

 

I tend to think he'd have a dex in the high 20s or low 30s, personally, but I won't pretend that's an objective assessment. It's based on how I view the scale of Dex as much as it is how I view Spider-Man's inherent agility. The main point I was trying to make is that just because someone does have a truly amazing Acrobatics roll, it doesn't necessarily follow that they achieve that with a base Dex roll. Comic-book humans (like Bat-Man) can and do perform at the 17- or greater level in their various fields, but it's not because they have superhuman stats -- humans do not have superhuman stats, any more than they fly, lift freight trains, or shoot energy beams out of their eyes.

[Enforcer84]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

I tend to go the high Dex route because Pete became a) A peerless acrobat, a skilled fighter (offensively and defensively - he makes people look silly), c) Highly intuitive, able to react much more quickly...

So, you can buy Acrobatics, Levels with Acrobatics, General Combat Levels, and Lightning Reflexexs, or you can buy Dex.

 

you must obsessively hate characteristics to require the clunkier version

[Agent X]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

I see this thread is still going, so I dropped back in to browse...

 

 

 

Here is something that I simply do not grasp at all: why do people (Mister E, Agent X, and probably other alphabetically named persons) insist on setting the stats of published characters (like Spider-Man) as if no points have been spent on any skills? That makes no sense. It's just wonky. If you want a high roll, you buy up the roll. That's how Hero works. Characters do not have to have stats in the stratosphere in order to have good rolls, especially when the result is patently absurd (such as giving even relatively normal people well-beyond human-level stats).

 

I don't know if it's a style of play, or if some people just skimmed that part of the book and don't realize that you can buy up skills (and skill levels), or what, but it's really quite goofy.

 

I think Spidey should buy some levels along with his "absurd" dexterity.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

I think Spidey should buy some levels along with his "absurd" dexterity.

 

Who said anything about Spider-Man's Dexterity being absurd? You should read more carefully. That you respond to things without reading them is one of the reasons I had stopped reading this topic.

 

I'll make it explicit: I was not referring to Spider-Man when I used the phrase "relatively normal people".

[Mister E]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

Who said anything about Spider-Man's Dexterity being absurd? You should read more carefully. That you respond to things without reading them is one of the reasons I had stopped reading this topic.

 

I'll make it explicit: I was not referring to Spider-Man when I used the phrase "relatively normal people".

You did mention absurdity, and the comment was mixed in with your response to my statement about Spider-Man's DEX. I said Spider-Man probably has a DEX of 53... isn't that what you were referring to, in a polite, round about way? It's cool, man. I think your observations are very thoughtful.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

You did mention absurdity' date=' and the comment was mixed in with your response to my statement about Spider-Man's DEX. I said Spider-Man probably has a DEX of 53... [i']isn't[/i] that what you were referring to, in a polite, round about way?

 

No, I was actually thinking about some posts from a few days ago, the last time I was reading this topic. I don't recall the details. It was probably about Bat-Man or Blue Beetle or Captain America, or something like that.

 

I do think 53 Dex is crazy high, but that's not what I had in mind when I was typing.

[Trebuchet]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

I'd say Spidey's Acrobatics were probably bought as a Power; even though he probably also has some levels with those Acrobatics. Those times he's lost his spider-powers have shown him to have no more inate acrobatic ability than an ordinary athletic person; so of course his levels in Acrobatics would not apply any more than levels with an EB would apply if the character's EB is totally Drained.

 

I think DEX 53 is crazy high too; DEX 35 - 38 with several levels is probably a more accurate build. There's simply no reason to give him numbers that high since he does get hit once in a while in HtH.

[Enforcer84]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

53 is about 16 higher than I've ever given him. So sure, I think that's absurd too. But that's more because I mock those who have the gall to disagree with me than anything else.

[MitchellS]

Re: DEX: and the Marvel Universe

 

I'd say Spidey's Acrobatics were probably bought as a Power; even though he probably also has some levels with those Acrobatics. Those times he's lost his spider-powers have shown him to have no more inate acrobatic ability than an ordinary athletic person; so of course his levels in Acrobatics would not apply any more than levels with an EB would apply if the character's EB is totally Drained.

 

I think DEX 53 is crazy high too; DEX 35 - 38 with several levels is probably a more accurate build. There's simply no reason to give him numbers that high since he does get hit once in a while in HtH.

I know it's traditional to give Spider-man acrobatics, but you can just as easily not give him the skill and give him the high dex and 4-5 dex levels and just let him run with it. Even if the GM assigns a -5 penalty to land on his feet from jumping over someone he's still going to have a 16- chance of success. You can just give Spider-man the superb balance talent and leave it at that.