How do you Ignore Armor?

[Tywyll]

I'm trying to build a Metal Magic spell that will attack the metal armor someone is wearing. It will cause the armor to either shrink and crush the target or grow spikes and "Iron Maiden" them to death. Regardless, what I need is an advantage that will allow the power to bypass Armor builds (even luck based cause how do you dodge spikes touching you?) but not FF or normal/Resistant PD.

 

NND doesn't work, cause it shouldn't be stopped by the other defenses. AVLD seems like the right way to go, but is simply too expensive for what it gives. A +2.5 Modifier (with Does Body) to ignor one part of defense? That seems too much.

 

Thoughts?

[greymankle]

Re: How do you Ignore Armor?

 

Well I think an indirect attack is what you want. AVLD is also good. If you are worried about the cost you could add the lim: Only vs. Targets wearing metal armor. Another route would be giving it piercing so the target needs hardened armor. But that will be expensive also.

 

 

As for AVLD being to costly though, it is pretty powerful. If this spell is up there in DC's it could really mess with people. Any attack that prevents the use of defenses is going to be both effective and expensive.

[Markdoc]

Re: How do you Ignore Armor?

 

Indirect ain't gonna work. It lets you attack from a different direction ofr place. It does not let you bypass defences - apart from walls, real or Force.

 

What you want is AVLD or NND, does body. Yep, it's expensive. It should be - in fantasy settings, it lets you bypass the most common defence and inflict lethal damage. It SHOULD be expensive.

 

cheers, Mark

 

And if you want to be a total bastard, it already has a big advantage on ot, so it doesn't increase the price so much (relatively) to add more. Make it area effect, selective, and then whack on unranged to bring the price back down. Eww.

[Ndreare]

Re: How do you Ignore Armor?

 

This is a very power full spell for only 37 points

 

27: Tywill's Iron Maiden: RKA 1D6-1 (vs. PD), Personal Immunity (+1/4), AOE Accurate (+1/2), Does BODY (+1), AOE (4" Radius; +1), Selective (+1/4), AVLD (Having Natrural rPD or Magical rPD; +1 1/2) (27 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Target Must Be Wearing "Aromor" (-1/2)

 

How about the lesser maiden

 

13: Tywill's Iron Maiden: RKA 1 point (vs. PD), Personal Immunity (+1/4), AOE Accurate (+1/2), Does BODY (+1), AOE (2" Radius; +1), Selective (+1/4), AVLD (Having Natrural rPD or Magical rPD; +1 1/2) (27 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Target Must Be Wearing "Aromor" (-1/2)

 

Talk about burly, this guy is doing Body and Stun every attack to 99% of his fows.

[MitchellS]

Re: How do you Ignore Armor?

 

I'd just go with something like this: 1 pip RKA, nnd [def is not wearing metal armor], does body, continuous, uncontrolled [spell caster puts desired end in, or it shuts off by taking off metal armor]. Total active cost: 22 points.

[Lanith]

Re: How do you Ignore Armor?

 

This is a very power full spell for only 37 points

 

27: Tywill's Iron Maiden: RKA 1D6-1 (vs. PD), Personal Immunity (+1/4), AOE Accurate (+1/2), Does BODY (+1), AOE (4" Radius; +1), Selective (+1/4), AVLD (Having Natrural rPD or Magical rPD; +1 1/2) (27 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Target Must Be Wearing "Aromor" (-1/2)

 

How about the lesser maiden

 

13: Tywill's Iron Maiden: RKA 1 point (vs. PD), Personal Immunity (+1/4), AOE Accurate (+1/2), Does BODY (+1), AOE (2" Radius; +1), Selective (+1/4), AVLD (Having Natrural rPD or Magical rPD; +1 1/2) (27 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Target Must Be Wearing "Aromor" (-1/2)

 

Talk about burly, this guy is doing Body and Stun every attack to 99% of his fows.

Holy crumb! Those are huge spells. If a GM allows them in the game I'd make him turn over his/her copies of 5eR for destruction. AVLD and does Body is more than powerful enough for any attack (fantasy or otherwise), but to drop AOE on top of it make it disgusting.

The big version of the Iron Maiden is sitting at 55 Active Points. That's a ton, lets just compare it to a 4d6-1 RKA.

AVLD and NND Does Body are both costly advantages. They should be! Any power that is built to ignore defenses shouldn't be "cheap". It should cost and cost A LOT!

[Ndreare]

Re: How do you Ignore Armor?

 

Holy crumb! Those are huge spells. If a GM allows them in the game I'd make him turn over his/her copies of 5eR for destruction. AVLD and does Body is more than powerful enough for any attack (fantasy or otherwise), but to drop AOE on top of it make it disgusting.

The big version of the Iron Maiden is sitting at 55 Active Points. That's a ton, lets just compare it to a 4d6-1 RKA.

AVLD and NND Does Body are both costly advantages. They should be! Any power that is built to ignore defenses shouldn't be "cheap". It should cost and cost A LOT!

 

To each their own play style, I was making a spell like what he asked for.

 

I personaly would not disalow this spell in My games (and they can try to pry the 5edR from my cold dead hands). However I can see how it would me inaproriot in other games. (My current Fantasy game is very much on the Super Heroic level with 620 point characters however to each there own.) I have also played in games were the players were not allowed to have any "STOP" powers at all with out special permision & restricted to 30 AP attacks. But without info on the level of power of his game I created a spell that fit his desire.

 

[Lanith]

Re: How do you Ignore Armor?

 

To each their own play style, I was making a spell like what he asked for.

 

I personaly would not disalow this spell in My games (and they can try to pry the 5edR from my cold dead hands). However I can see how it would me inaproriot in other games. (My current Fantasy game is very much on the Super Heroic level with 620 point characters however to each there own.) I have also played in games were the players were not allowed to have any "STOP" powers at all with out special permision & restricted to 30 AP attacks. But without info on the level of power of his game I created a spell that fit his desire.

 

 

Ndreare, OK you are correct and I apologize. I didn't take into account that you may be playing at higher point levels than I would. (Much higher than I've ever played at actually)

For designing the power that asked for, you have done admirably Ndreare.

Tywyll, I re-read your original post and I think you might have a misunderstanding. NND and AVLD attacks don't just ignore "one part" of defense. If you don't have the defense required (ie: non-metal armor, self-contained breathing, etc.) you take all (if the power is bought NND), or a portion (if bought as AVLD) of the damage rolled.

[caris]

Re: How do you Ignore Armor?

 

This is a very power full spell for only 37 points

 

27: Tywill's Iron Maiden: RKA 1D6-1 (vs. PD), Personal Immunity (+1/4), AOE Accurate (+1/2), Does BODY (+1), AOE (4" Radius; +1), Selective (+1/4), AVLD (Having Natrural rPD or Magical rPD; +1 1/2) (27 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Target Must Be Wearing "Aromor" (-1/2)

 

How about the lesser maiden

 

13: Tywill's Iron Maiden: RKA 1 point (vs. PD), Personal Immunity (+1/4), AOE Accurate (+1/2), Does BODY (+1), AOE (2" Radius; +1), Selective (+1/4), AVLD (Having Natrural rPD or Magical rPD; +1 1/2) (27 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Target Must Be Wearing "Aromor" (-1/2)

 

Talk about burly, this guy is doing Body and Stun every attack to 99% of his fows.

 

Can you stack AOE: Accurate with another form of AOE that is Selective?

[Ndreare]

Re: How do you Ignore Armor?

 

Can you stack AOE: Accurate with another form of AOE that is Selective?

 

The answer is yes. I asked this in the Rules Questions a few years ago and got the official yes, then there was a big issue as to why we cannot do it in Hero Designer, & we were told that we should select custom modifier for it as it is a "Rare" option.

 

(To this day I think if the rules allow it then HERO Designer should too.)

[Ndreare]

Re: How do you Ignore Armor?

 

Found it in the FAQ here you go

 

Q: The rules require a character with a Selective Area Of Effect to roll to hit each target individually, against the target’s normal DCV. Is there a way for the character to attack each target at a lower DCV, such as the normal DCV 3 used with Area Of Effect?

 

A: In the GM’s discretion, you can achieve this by applying Area Of Effect (One Hex Accurate; +1/2) to the power in addition to the Area Of Effect Selective used to give the power the ability to affect an area in the first place.

 

Although this way it is written in an elusive way. I am sure some one like Lord Laiden (spelling?) would be able to give more light.

[Tywyll]

Re: How do you Ignore Armor?

 

Ndreare, OK you are correct and I apologize. I didn't take into account that you may be playing at higher point levels than I would. (Much higher than I've ever played at actually)

For designing the power that asked for, you have done admirably Ndreare.

Tywyll, I re-read your original post and I think you might have a misunderstanding. NND and AVLD attacks don't just ignore "one part" of defense. If you don't have the defense required (ie: non-metal armor, self-contained breathing, etc.) you take all (if the power is bought NND), or a portion (if bought as AVLD) of the damage rolled.

 

Yes, I suppose I should have stated the power level of the game. Its very High-Fantasy, with 125+125 base characters, and most people on about 40-60 xp. Many characters have innate protections, including some rPD or FF. Consequently, the power to simply ignore a single defensive power (albeit a common one) is not, in my mind, worth as much as an advantage (AVLD) that requires you to have a rare defense (Power Defense and Mental Defense, which are still fairly rare in my game).

 

As for understanding NND and AVLD, I do understand exactly how they work. the all or nothing part of NND doesn't work for what I'm wanting to do. AVLD is closer, but its higher cost seems based on the supposition that the ability its based on being countered by is relatively rare. FF and Resistant PD are not /that/ rare in the setting, so the +1.5 doesn't jive too well with me.

 

Penetrating doesn't work because none of the armor should be figured into the defenses. AP for the same reason.

[MitchellS]

Re: How do you Ignore Armor?

 

Yes, I suppose I should have stated the power level of the game. Its very High-Fantasy, with 125+125 base characters, and most people on about 40-60 xp. Many characters have innate protections, including some rPD or FF. Consequently, the power to simply ignore a single defensive power (albeit a common one) is not, in my mind, worth as much as an advantage (AVLD) that requires you to have a rare defense (Power Defense and Mental Defense, which are still fairly rare in my game).

 

As for understanding NND and AVLD, I do understand exactly how they work. the all or nothing part of NND doesn't work for what I'm wanting to do. AVLD is closer, but its higher cost seems based on the supposition that the ability its based on being countered by is relatively rare. FF and Resistant PD are not /that/ rare in the setting, so the +1.5 doesn't jive too well with me.

 

Penetrating doesn't work because none of the armor should be figured into the defenses. AP for the same reason.

I don't understand why you think nnd doesn't work? If the defense is not wearing metal armor that can be tranformed it seems to work fine. I get the feeling you're trying to over think this. That's a very common problem with Hero.

[stan da ork]

Re: How do you Ignore Armor?

 

It sounds to me like he doesn't want to use NND because if a given character has some natural rPD and metal armor, the natural rPD should protect him, but the rPD from the armor should not.

 

I think what you want is AVLD, but I think you missed something. In FRED, there is a clause that states: "...AVLD only costs +3/4 if the defense against it ... is simply a limited form of the Power's standard defense." So putting AVLD on an RKA such that it is only effected by rPD gained from DR and FF is a +3/4 advantage, not a +1 1/2 advantage. Then you can take a limitation on it to represent the fact that it only works on people wearing metal armor.

 

So the spell might look like:

 

20 Trapped in the Shell: RKA 1d6 v. PD, AVLD (only effected by rPD from DR and FF, +3/4), Does Body (+1) (41 Active Points); Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Only Works on Targets Wearing Metal Armor (-1/2, depends on how common this is in your world)

 

You can also stack on Continuous (if you want the spell to last more than one attack) and Uncontrolled (can be stopped by removing the metal armor in question), and anything else you want.

[MitchellS]

Re: How do you Ignore Armor?

 

It sounds to me like he doesn't want to use NND because if a given character has some natural rPD and metal armor' date=' the natural rPD should protect him, but the rPD from the armor should not.[/quote']

Ah. Ok, got it. Thanks.

 

Of course the GM could just rule that the +3/4 version of indirect can get under armor as long as it's an accessable focus.

 

1d6 RKA, indirect: +3/4, only versus foes with metal armor: -1/2. 17 points.

[Citizen Keen]

Re: How do you Ignore Armor?

 

Any thought to Penetrating, and Naked Lim on the Penetrating "Only Against Armor-wearing Characters (Focus)"? Then, it bypasses the armor (the Penetrating will ALWAYS do damage), and the Penetrating doesn't work if the character doesn't have an Armor built as a Focus.

 

Or, in keeping with the concept, make the "Only Against Armor-wearing Characters (Focus)" apply to the whole power, meaning if a character isn't wearing independent armor, it doesn't work on them.

 

Just a thought.

[Tywyll]

Re: How do you Ignore Armor?

 

It sounds to me like he doesn't want to use NND because if a given character has some natural rPD and metal armor, the natural rPD should protect him, but the rPD from the armor should not.

 

I think what you want is AVLD, but I think you missed something. In FRED, there is a clause that states: "...AVLD only costs +3/4 if the defense against it ... is simply a limited form of the Power's standard defense." So putting AVLD on an RKA such that it is only effected by rPD gained from DR and FF is a +3/4 advantage, not a +1 1/2 advantage. Then you can take a limitation on it to represent the fact that it only works on people wearing metal armor.

 

So the spell might look like:

 

20 Trapped in the Shell: RKA 1d6 v. PD, AVLD (only effected by rPD from DR and FF, +3/4), Does Body (+1) (41 Active Points); Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Only Works on Targets Wearing Metal Armor (-1/2, depends on how common this is in your world)

 

You can also stack on Continuous (if you want the spell to last more than one attack) and Uncontrolled (can be stopped by removing the metal armor in question), and anything else you want.

 

 

Yes, that is exactly what I was looking for, and exactly why I couldn't use NND. I read the +3/4 but I guess the examples didn't make me think it would work. Ok, cool, I'll go with that. Thanks!

And yeah, it will be continuous and Uncontrolled.... pretty horrible. Luckily it won't effect "magic" armor, so it will mostly be a mook killer.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do you Ignore Armor?

 

Ah. Ok, got it. Thanks.

 

Of course the GM could just rule that the +3/4 version of indirect can get under armor as long as it's an accessable focus.

 

1d6 RKA, indirect: +3/4, only versus foes with metal armor: -1/2. 17 points.

 

Or that this is a,omitation which comes automaticaly with any armor having the "real armor" limitation. This would provide a possibility that some magical armor would resist the spell.

[Silbeg]

Re: How do you Ignore Armor?

 

I'm trying to build a Metal Magic spell that will attack the metal armor someone is wearing. It will cause the armor to either shrink and crush the target or grow spikes and "Iron Maiden" them to death. Regardless, what I need is an advantage that will allow the power to bypass Armor builds (even luck based cause how do you dodge spikes touching you?) but not FF or normal/Resistant PD.

 

NND doesn't work, cause it shouldn't be stopped by the other defenses. AVLD seems like the right way to go, but is simply too expensive for what it gives. A +2.5 Modifier (with Does Body) to ignor one part of defense? That seems too much.

 

Thoughts?

 

I would probably do something like...

 

65	Iron Maiden Spell: (Total: 75 Active Cost, 65 Real Cost) RKA 2d6, Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; +1/2) (45 Active Points) (Real Cost: 45) plus Penetrating (x2; +1) for up to 30 Active Points of Iron Maiden RKA (30 Active Points); Only Vs. Armor (-1/2) (Real Cost: 20)	7

Note, that this will do normal killing damage to everything except armor, but is double penetrating against armor (only). I rated this lim as -1/2, as it fits other "Only Vs. XXX" lims. If a spell, you will probably want to add the appropriate other limitations to the power...