Nolgroth Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Re: I'm considering Hero... You pick what should be your most lethal example of combat in a Fantasy HERO game and only *one* player dies? And you claim it's just as lethal as any other game seemingly including mine where has seen a number of total party *kills* and has a 40% of generated PC death rate? I suppose from the death characters PoV that may be the case. But as far as a measure of how lethal the system it, it's a joke. A similar type of combat in D&D, no player characters die, most of the party is down about 50 - 60% of HIt Points. This is assuming a pretty fair match-up. Let's throw in Shadowrun. Maybe a couple reach the Deadly Wounds category, but can still be saved. These are just a couple of examples, but it boils down to the fact that in just about every role-playing game I've been in, roughly equally matched battles go to the PCs favor. I'm still not seeing your point. I suppose if you wanted to throw in Chartmaster where a random percentile roll could conceivably destroy a hale and healthy hero in one swipe, yeah there are more lethal systems than HERO. On the other hand, that's a ludicrous example of a combat system where everything is randomized and makes little sense. If a given combat can take out 2/3 (three members) of the party, one of those with the 2x Body necessary to outright kill a party member, then the system is far from not being lethal. And you have a 40% death rate among your PCs? You have issues. I was in a AD&D campaign once that was just like that and the level of frustration was pretty high among the players. I'm not sure which system you are playing with and whether or not you are the GM, but a 40% death rate is the real joke. I think I'd much rather play Solitaire with real cards than join in a group where a 40% death rate is accepted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CourtFool Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Re: I'm considering Hero... Hi' date=' Pot. This is kettle calling.[/quote'] I would have to agree here. You seem to have no problem heaping scorn on others with a different playing style than yours or game systems with a different game philosophy than yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox1 Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Re: I'm considering Hero... A similar type of combat in D&D' date=' no player characters die, most of the party is down about 50 - 60% of HIt Points. .[/quote'] I haven't played D&D since 1st edition AD&D. Back there I had higher death rate then today. This is assuming a pretty fair match-up. Let's throw in Shadowrun. I've played Shadowrun. Hated the mechanics. Still use the setting with HERO based rules. I suppose if you wanted to throw in Chartmaster The game is called Rolemaster, a game the you apparently don't really understand very well. One can also add in RuneQuest which is even deadier and its related games such as CoC. Add original Traveller for that matter. All are more lethal than HERO. That's just as a start, I don't feel like looking at a list of published rpgs and ranking them just now. And you have a 40% death rate among your PCs? You have issues. I was in a AD&D campaign once that was just like that and the level of frustration was pretty high among the players. I'm not sure which system you are playing with and whether or not you are the GM, but a 40% death rate is the real joke. I think I'd much rather play Solitaire with real cards than join in a group where a 40% death rate is accepted. I won't suggest then that you come to one of my games. I have however ran it successfully in extended campaigns that are far in excess of the typical industry length for nearly a hundred different people in four different states. Not once have I had any of those players complain about the death rate. So frankly, I couldn't care less about your opinion on the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox1 Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Re: I'm considering Hero... I would have to agree here. You seem to have no problem heaping scorn on others with a different playing style than yours or game systems with a different game philosophy than yours. I have done no such thing in this thread. Nor do I recall heaping scorn upon anyone at this boards in a game related perference issue. I do recall cases of insulting people too stupid to read the rules- but that is not the issue at hand here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenStorm Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Re: I'm considering Hero... I've simply stated my own opinion on the matter and on how HERO by default handles it. Only you here have seen fit to attack someone's stated perference on this subject. Hmmm... "I suppose from the death characters PoV that may be the case. But as far as a measure of how lethal the system it, it's a joke." - You Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox1 Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Re: I'm considering Hero... Hmmm... "I suppose from the death characters PoV that may be the case. But as far as a measure of how lethal the system it, it's a joke." - You Meant only as my opinion of calling such a system "lethal", not in any way as a reflection of his personal gaming style. In the same way, I would state that someone claiming a slug is a fast moving creature is a joke. The difference should be clear to anyone taking a honest look at the phrasing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenStorm Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Re: I'm considering Hero... Meant only as my opinion of calling such a system "lethal"' date=' [b']not[/b] in any way as a reflection of his personal gaming style. In the same way, I would state that someone claiming a slug is a fast moving creature is a joke. The difference should be clear to anyone taking a honest look at the phrasing. Yeah, I got it. Didn't you see the ":thumbup:"????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenStorm Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Re: I'm considering Hero... But, since you mention it... didn't you SEE the slug in "The Neverending Story?" Wait, that was a snail. You're right. Subjectivity is only subjective until someone 'objectively' 'believes' otherwise. Once again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox1 Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Re: I'm considering Hero... Yeah, I got it. Didn't you see the ":thumbup:"????? Saw it. It appeared to me as if you were patting yourself on the back in your failed attempt to find something to back up your erroneous "Hi, Pot. This is kettle calling.." claim. Did you mean to imply something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyxclaw Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Re: I'm considering Hero... I always find it amusing when people object to being treated like or accused of the same kinds of things they accuse others of... Or when they don't like being talked to the way they talk to others. Generally being openminded and accepting of the fact that others will not always agree and that trying to change thier minds is generally a waste of valuable time helps keep things from getting out of hand... But then that is often easier said than done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox1 Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Re: I'm considering Hero... I always find it amusing when people object to being treated like or accused of the same kinds of things they accuse others of... Or when they don't like being talked to the way they talk to others.. I will accept insult of any factual error that I have made. If I read a rule incorrectly or fail to read one that I should have before making a statement- I will accept being called stupid or other names. I will in fact often do the honor myself if no one does. I will also give insult under such conditions when I encounter a person who makes a similar error when it reaches the 'brain-dead' level. I will not give insult because someone likes a different style of gaming than I do unless insulted for such first- and very rarely even then. I also object to be insulted for my style of gaming. I'm VERY much for taking whatever I give. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolgroth Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Re: I'm considering Hero... The game is called Rolemaster' date=' a game the you apparently don't really understand very well. [/quote'] I understand it well enough to know that it is really a munchkin game. One can also add in RuneQuest which is even deadier and its related games such as CoC. Add original Traveller for that matter. All are more lethal than HERO. Never played Runequest, but I have played Call of Cthulhu. I suppose the game could be considered lethal, but it seemed more of the players went Insane than outright keeled over I won't suggest then that you come to one of my games. No worries there. I have however ran it successfully in extended campaigns that are far in excess of the typical industry length for nearly a hundred different people in four different states. Not once have I had any of those players complain about the death rate. So frankly, I couldn't care less about your opinion on the matter. Okay, we are both getting a little on the defensive side. If you like high lethality and like to consider that "epic," then who am I to argue with you. I don't want to diverge into some huge "my way is better than your way" argument. Getting back to the thread topic, I do strongly disagree with you on just about everything you said about HERO. I do think that it is wrong. Also, based on what we have both said so far, our gaming styles are vastly different and that would make a huge impact on how we perceive the utility of a given system. I, like most HEROphiles here, will stand up and defend "our" system. Especially true when a potential newcomer asks for opinions and advice. Forgive me if I get a little on the zealous side. So, with that said, I offer a truce. You go kill you players' characters and I'll do what I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyxclaw Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Re: I'm considering Hero... which is fine, and I respect that you are capable of that. But a lot of times you are very rude on board, even when a person hasn't been rude to you...and when they get upset you don't back off. You also take a lot of offense when people are rude to you when you havn't been to them. Of course most of us are guilty of the same thing, so that wasn't dirrected at just you, sorry if you felt it was, but it was a general post of my ammusement. Since most of the post wars on site do ammuse me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenStorm Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Re: I'm considering Hero... Saw it. It appeared to me as if you were patting yourself on the back in your failed attempt to find something to back up your erroneous "Hi, Pot. This is kettle calling.." claim. Did you mean to imply something else? Well, I HAD meant to imply that I re-read your original post and came to the conclusion that it was not an unreasonable assumption that you were merely attacking what you saw as a flaw in the system. But, if you want to be pugilistic about it I guess I could hurl some insults back at you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox1 Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Re: I'm considering Hero... I' date=' like most HEROphiles here, will stand up and defend "our" system. Especially true when a potential newcomer asks for opinions and advice. Forgive me if I get a little on the zealous side. So, with that said, I offer a truce. You go kill you players' characters and I'll do what I do. [/quote'] Good enough. Truce it is. For what it worth, I'm a hugh HERO system fan outside fantasy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox1 Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Re: I'm considering Hero... Well, I HAD meant to imply that I re-read your original post and came to the conclusion that it was not an unreasonable assumption that you were merely attacking what you saw as a flaw in the system. But, if you want to be pugilistic about it I guess I could hurl some insults back at you. Then I'm sorry for misreading your intention. Beyond that, I'd like to go beyond insults today if possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox1 Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Re: I'm considering Hero... But a lot of times you are very rude on board' date=' even when a person hasn't been rude to you...and when they get upset you don't back off.[/quote'] Generally I'm not rude so much as concise and to the point and quite willing to call things exactly as I see them. People see that as rude. It doesn't help that I generally only post in counter to some idea that I don't agree with or think is gravely flawed. But I am what I am, and it's either be that or not post at all. For now I'll just accept the general opinion of me as the general opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Re: I'm considering Hero... On a side note. (What a Tangent from TQM? Impossible, Improbable, Unlikely even) I have a Supervisor who typing skills are fine, but who's writing skills make his emails read badly (That's a polite way of putting it.) We are here to have fun. So enjoy, respect others, and peace. QM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy_The_Ruthles Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Re: I'm considering Hero... More seriously I don't have much control over it. The system is dice based and heavily influenced by the tactics in each battle. So a death outcome is basically unpredictable, I can only influence the leaning so to speak. I've had total party kills in what should have been minor encounters. On the other hand, the last "end of a epic arc, fight to the finish against overwhelming odds" that I had *intended* to have a heavy chance of killing a number of PCs- only killed one, maimed one. And killed one NPC. The average however comes out about right. yeah, our GM came up and told us he was going to have to take some time to make the right lvl of encounter for us (for the sci fi one) in my DnD game, due to rapidly fluctuating attendence, a princess who should have been no problem, nearly bleeded to death (and would have killed them all, but i took away her potion of cure moderate because 2 players were missing) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy_The_Ruthles Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Re: I'm considering Hero... we played a oneshot where we all died, up til then it was much fun. My death was even fun, I got beheaded ^^ In the game I am preparing death will be common only if characters do foolish things. If you insult something bigger than you he's going to have something to say about it. I don't protect PCs from death at all, but I will pull punches if I made something more powerful than I intended, (i.e. that little octopus really shouldn't be able to kill a fighter...why is he dieing? oh...right..he can't breathe...oops. ::make octopus release: I also wont gun for them. But I let them know that right off the bat. I've warned my players to be ready if thier character dies, cause in all liekly hood it will happen eventually. But then they can build as many characters as they want to have waiting in the wings...so it's ok. In a different setting than the current one though, I would probubly try to make sure they didn't die often, just because it would make the story too short...and I'm really in it for the stories you know i'm gonna make 200pt "cute" octo death right? with octo fu? i hope brian doesn't need to breath... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy_The_Ruthles Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Re: I'm considering Hero... i agree with fox's claim that an "epic" death can be exciting every once in a while. A character once blew himself up in a fit of roleplaying that was amazing. All the players looked at me to stop him and say "no you can't do that" but i just let him go. In the end there was only chunks where a formerly *good* sorceror had been. It was awesome and i'm bringing him back as a deamon later... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyxclaw Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Re: I'm considering Hero... you know i'm gonna make 200pt "cute" octo death right? with octo fu? i hope brian doesn't need to breath... please don't just single him out, spread the fun ...although that encounter *was* ment to break him in. The little ones are supposed to be annoying, not deadly!!! and no martial arts for the octopi...except martial grab, and "cringe", and that one that helps them break grabs....yeah...hmm...octo fu... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyxclaw Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Re: I'm considering Hero... i agree with fox's claim that an "epic" death can be exciting every once in a while. A character once blew himself up in a fit of roleplaying that was amazing. All the players looked at me to stop him and say "no you can't do that" but i just let him go. In the end there was only chunks where a formerly *good* sorceror had been. It was awesome and i'm bringing him back as a deamon later... that was daniel's mage right? That was so totally awsome! His grasp on the chracter was so wonderful and the roleplaying was great. I'd encurage performances like that on a more regular basis, though without the suicide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roy_The_Ruthles Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Re: I'm considering Hero... please don't just single him out' date=' spread the fun ...although that encounter *was* ment to break him in. The little ones are supposed to be annoying, not deadly!!! and no martial arts for the octopi...except martial grab, and "cringe", and that one that helps them break grabs....yeah...hmm...octo fu...[/quote'] i'm not singling him out for destruction, i'm singling him out as the person most likely to go "i shall kill these demon spawn for the good of the catholic church!" right before being hit by 3 teamworking octo-ninja's using octo-fu to take him appart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyxclaw Posted July 14, 2005 Report Share Posted July 14, 2005 Re: I'm considering Hero... i'm not singling him out for destruction, i'm singling him out as the person most likely to go "i shall kill these demon spawn for the good of the catholic church!" right before being hit by 3 teamworking octo-ninja's using octo-fu to take him appart actually the plan was to send him to get a live acid spewing alien a little further down...and see if he does it. Kat will save him if the little octopi becoem too much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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