I'm considering Hero...

[obatron]

First, pardon's if this is trollish or whatnot, the length of my post, and if this is an old discussion I should have searched for more...

 

Being an avid collector of all things RPG, I have a collection of all systems (Hero, GURPS, WFRP 1 & 2, Hackmaster, AD&D 2, AD&D 1, D&D 3.0, D&D 3.5, OD&D, various D20 variants, Decipher LoTR, Burning Wheel, Riddle of Steel, and a few others I can't remember.)

 

I'll play almost anything, although I generally make a better GM than I do a player...don't know why, just do. Most of the systems I've done as one offs, or short 'breaks' for something different. GURPS has been my staple...

 

I started out GM'ing AD&D 1st edition, then switched to GURPS 3rd edition a number of years ago. I have a very large GURPS 3 collection, despite the fact that we almost always play fantasy (we did a little GURPS Space, and GURPS Old West, but they were short breaks.) With the release of GURPS 4th, I bought all the books, but find myself in a quandry...do I convert to GURPS 4th, or is it time to try a new system...

 

I recently tried Castles and Crusades, an old school D20 varient and came away from it remembering why I switched to GURPS. What I didn't like about GURPS was:

 

* Spell system

* The length of time combat took, "...you see three Ogres...4 hours later, well, that's enough for this session, see ya next week."

* Lack of players

* I have to supply all the books for any system other than D&D 3.0 we play (I make the most money.)

 

Now, the latter two are not likely to change unless I switch to D20, and I'm not sure I want to go through that. I heard good things about True20, and Fantasy Hero has intrigued me (not so much the latest setting though), though it seems a bit daunting to learn. The question I have is, before I take the plunge with GURPS 4th, should I consider Fantasy Hero, and why, or even why not for that matter? Others?

 

Your input will help, I've feel like I've been going in circles reviewing all my options. It's left me frozen for the past few months.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: I'm considering Hero...

 

i've never played GURPS so i'm a bit biased, but i've found hero in general to be a bit of a plunge to learn reading from the book, on the other hand the flexiblity in Fantasy Hero is really nice, so i can make a crossbow that shoots magic missles or a vampire character and still be decent at things etc...

 

(plus you only need the HERO book, and maybe the fantasy hero book, though the minions and mauraders and beasteary might be useful depending on how much free time you have)

 

the combat can take a while though while you learn the system

[Onyxclaw]

Re: I'm considering Hero...

 

well, I've also never played GURPS. But I can tell you that character creation to start out with in HERO is difficult. It is also very rewarding. The flexibility of the system is amazing.

 

I would recomend the extra Genre books to save time and for extra examples, but they are not essential. I own the Beastiary, and while I don't like all of the animal/moster builds it makes it so much easier to find a starting ground. Really though, All you need to play is the base Hero system book, and the time to read it.

 

Combat does take awhile.

 

This was the second system I learned, although honestly it's the frist one I bothered to learn well enough to GM. The first was DnD.

 

I'm not sure that helped any, but I'm sure some of those who have been playing more systems and this one longer will throw in thier own 2 cents soon enough.

 

Good luck deciding!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: I'm considering Hero...

 

First' date=' pardon's if this is trollish or whatnot, the length of my post, and if this is an old discussion I should have searched for more...[/quote']

 

It's a variant on an old discussion, but everyone has different issues when they select a game system, so searching old threads may or may not be helpful.

 

And it's neither a troll nor excessively long, in my opinion.

 

My background: gamer for 20+ years; played a lot of systems early on (high school; university) settled into Hero and D20, and I've never played GURPS. Of course, you already know on the Hero boards we will have a bias towards Hero.

 

What I didn't like about GURPS was:

 

* Spell system

 

There is no defined spell system in Hero, although the setting books create one for their individual settings. You can pretty much custom build your Hero spell system (and change it for different campaigns if you see fit).

 

* The length of time combat took' date=' "...you see three Ogres...4 hours later, well, that's enough for this session, see ya next week." [/quote']

 

Hero combat can be sped up by reducing optional rules. I find it's reasonably fast in Fantasy Hero environments, probably a bit slower, but not a lot, than d20.

 

* Lack of players

 

As you note, this is a factor of game market penetration, and unlikely to readily be fixed by switching to Hero.

 

* I have to supply all the books for any system other than D&D 3.0 we play (I make the most money.)

 

Well, you'll obviously need some books. You might consider a copy of Sidekick (stripped down rules with a pretty low pricetag) as a tryout. You can get it in .pdf on this very site!

 

You may or may not want to plunge into the full 5er rulebook, but you could likely run with Sidekick alone.

 

The unusual aspect of Hero is that the rules are more a toolkit for building your game than a game unto itself. You could operate with just the rulebook if you want, and design your own fantasy environment. Books you may want in this regard:

 

- Fantasy Hero, which discusses how to apply the Hero rules in a fantasy game

 

- Bestiary; Monsters Minions & Marauders; upcoming Nobles Knights & Necromancers - pre fab Hero character adversaries (animals, orcs, dragons, etc.).

 

- Fantasy Hero Grimoire I and II contain pre-fab spells. Its utility will depend on how close your magic system is to the "default" of the Turakian Age setting

 

- Turakian Age and Valdorian Age are settings. You can always use your own settings.

 

One advantage to buying all the books - you can take the tough part of learning the game away from your players. "You guys tell me what you want your characters to be able to do, and I'll build them." Hero is often rightly described as being a tough, complex character generation system with pretty straightforward to easy gameplay.

 

I'm, as I said, biased, but I would suggest giving Hero a shot. It sounds like it will address your GURPs concerns (other than "lack of players" and "buy the books", which nothing but d20 can likely do), and it is a great, very versatile system.

 

It also has a support network like no other, as you'll doubtless see from the replies to this thread - the Board community is always happy to provide innovative, generally contradictory ideas with anything you want to pursue.

[Savinien]

Re: I'm considering Hero...

 

I have never played GURPS, but I find Fantasy Hero a breath of fresh air from two decades of D&D. I'm very lazy and don't like a lot of work ahead of time. Still, I'm the official PEDANTIC GM, so I can't hardly use a bought system...

 

So, I used this board to help me flesh out what I wanted, how I could make it so, and what it would take. I can't say Fantasy Hero is better than GURPS, but I do disdainfully swish any requests to play D&D. I certainly don't have any such urges.

[obatron]

Re: I'm considering Hero...

 

Wow, that's a lot of repsonse in a very short time! Many thanks!

 

I should have mentioned, I've already bought all the Fantasy Hero line, including the first 5th edition and the new one and Sidekick. I have an adictive personality. So for me, it's more of being at the edge, should I fall off on the Hero side or the GURPS side as the system of choice...

 

This might be a bit lazy on my part, especially since I've not read the material yet. Can you tell me

 

1. Are there many GM online resources? Especially things that can help me creating my setting and such. Can you point me to a couple.

 

2. I'm looking for a magic system that centers around a making a Mage's eyes light up when finding books. You know, when they see the library and they push everyone out of the way rushing forward "These must be MINE!" Is that part of any of the published settings? How hard would it be to make? Has it been done?

 

3. From reading these boards, it sounds like you build most items the same way you do a character. If true, does the character designer help in this respect as well? I haven't bought it yet...nor the equipment guide...I'm itching too though...sigh.

 

I'll have more questions shortly I'm sure.

[CourtFool]

Hero vs. G.U.R.P.S.

 

I played G.U.R.P.S. for many years. Let me address the specific concerns you have.

 

Spell System

Hero does not have a specific Spell System in the core rule book. It does provide an extensive framework to design your own (Powers, Advantages, Limitations, Power Frameworks). You could design a Spell System like G.U.R.P.S., D&D or your own design with this framework. That does mean a lot of up front work, though. The Turakian Age and Valdorian Age do provide a Spell System and there are two Grimoire books with plenty of spells. Killer Shrike also has some great Spell System write ups on his D&D conversion web site.

 

Combat Length

In my experience, Hero is shorter than G.U.R.P.S. If you toss out a lot of the optional rules, it becomes a great deal shorter.

 

Lack of Players

I am afraid this will be about equal or slightly less than G.U.R.P.S. At least, that has been my experience.

 

‘Buy In’ Cost

I believe Hero will be cheaper here. You will probably want quite a few books for yourself, but the players will really only need Sidekick whereas with G.U.R.P.S. you would probably have to buy them all one of the core (hardbound) books. Plus with each new G.U.R.P.S. supplement, they will want to borrow it for all the ‘cool’ advantages. With Hero, you can just tell them what the ‘cool’ write up is built on in whatever Hero supplement you are using. All the Hero supplements use the same powers from the core rule book to build different abilities.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: I'm considering Hero...

 

if you've already bought it, it'd be a shame to let it all go to waste... you really should play

 

1) there are tons, soon enough TheQuestionMan will pop up and give you a string of links to look at

 

2) Wouldn't be too hard depending on how you want to structure it. For example a mage with any given book might be able to cast it straight from the book (but has to pay the END), or maybe you can only learn new spells from books (maybe a multipower or VPP) or where books contain the rarest and most powerful spells but anyone can teach you how to make a firebolt.

 

1/2 of it's in the setting, the other half in how you construct magic

 

3) No idea on character designer, i'm an all natural myself. If you want help on building anything though, or just want to show something off, come to the boards. They're really a fast way to get answers, (best service i've seen)

[CourtFool]

Stop posting so I can catch up!

 

Online Resources

There are many GM online resources. Check through these boards, especially the compilation conversion threads.

 

‘Kewl’ Magic System

I doubt you will achieve this effect. All Magic Systems will be based around the same Powers. This may sound limiting, but once you see the possible combinations of Powers, Advantages, Limitations and Power Frameworks you will not be disappointed. The reason I say you are not going to light up the Mage’s eyes is because once everyone understands the concepts behind the Powers they will all know what the spells can do. A particular combination may be something the Mage had not thought of before, but it is more likely to get a ‘why didn’t I think of that?’ response.

 

Item Stats

Yes, most items are written up much the same as a character with Skills and Powers. Some people make fun of others for writing up the most mundane items in Hero System statistics. To me, this is just evidence that Hero can do just about anything. It is not necessary to write up a toaster, but when you realize that you can, you also realize how to design a character that can change bread into toast and that you can express that ability in a way everyone else understands (at least everyone else that is familiar with the rules).

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: I'm considering Hero...

 

I should have mentioned' date=' I've already bought all the Fantasy Hero line, including the first 5th edition and the new one and Sidekick. I have an adictive personality. So for me, it's more of being at the edge, should I fall off on the Hero side or the GURPS side as the system of choice... [/quote']

 

I have played both GURPS and HERO and prefer HERO. I am still playing in a GURPS Fantasy Campaign that has lasted over 16yrs with a core group of 3 Original player and other players of varying degrees of seniority. The youngest is now 2yrs and he's 25.

 

This might be a bit lazy on my part' date=' especially since I've not read the material yet. Can you tell me...[/quote']

 

Try this Thread - [Compilation] "to Fantasy HERO Conversions & Adaptations"

http:// http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24968%3Cbr%20/%3E

 

1. Are there many GM online resources? Especially things that can help me creating my setting and such. Can you point me to a couple.

 

Ask and yee shall recieve. Be specific and try to provide key words for search parameters.

 

2. I'm looking for a magic system that centers around a making a Mage's eyes light up when finding books. You know' date=' when they see the library and they push everyone out of the way rushing forward "These must be MINE!" Is that part of any of the published settings? How hard would it be to make? Has it been done?[/quote']

 

That is a "Special Effect" it's free unless you want it to Affect Others then you buy some "Presence" with approppriate Limitations and/or the Limitation: Visible Power Effects.

 

3. From reading these boards' date=' it sounds like you build most items the same way you do a character. If true, does the character designer help in this respect as well? I haven't bought it yet...nor the equipment guide...I'm itching too though...sigh.[/quote']

 

Try the Demo out first and then decide. I will buy it, but then I just got a new computer. Hero's latest sourcebook is great. "The HERO System Equipment Guide"

 

I'll have more questions shortly I'm sure.

 

And I'l have more answers, but not always the right ones.

 

Cheers

 

QM

[BigJackBrass]

Re: I'm considering Hero...

 

If an interesting magic system is important then have a look at "A Magical Medley" from Grey Ghost Press, a semi-generic supplement offering a variety of different approaches to magic. Because of its "toolkit" nature HERO can simulate any of these quite easily. With a system such as D&D you have to fundamentally change the rules in order to offer a different way of spellcasting, but with HERO you simply use the rules to create a different effect, with different biases and clauses. For that reason I'd say it gives you pretty much the greatest flexibility of any game on the market, outside of something like Fudge which takes a radically different approach to the problem.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Stop posting so I can catch up!

 

‘Kewl’ Magic System

I doubt you will achieve this effect. All Magic Systems will be based around the same Powers. This may sound limiting, but once you see the possible combinations of Powers, Advantages, Limitations and Power Frameworks you will not be disappointed. The reason I say you are not going to light up the Mage’s eyes is because once everyone understands the concepts behind the Powers they will all know what the spells can do. A particular combination may be something the Mage had not thought of before, but it is more likely to get a ‘why didn’t I think of that?’ response.

 

alot of it comes down to roleplaying really. When i see a magic item in the low fantasy game, my eyes light up with greed (to the point of nearly killing the party in my lust for items).

 

Sometimes the magic isn't obvious. I swear this sword is magic, i've been lugging it around for a semester now, and everyone else (besides the GM) has tried to disuade me, but screw them, i'm sure it's magical

[John Desmarais]

Re: I'm considering Hero...

 

2. I'm looking for a magic system that centers around a making a Mage's eyes light up when finding books. You know' date=' when they see the library and they push everyone out of the way rushing forward "These must be MINE!" Is that part of any of the published settings? How hard would it be to make? Has it been done?[/quote']

 

I assume that you just want magical knowledge tied closely to books, not actually have the mages eyes being to glow whenever he finds a book. There are many different ways of forcing this on a magic system - the easiest simply being (with any magic system - published or home brewed) declaring that you can not spend the points to buy a new spell unless you have some way of "learning" the new spell (ie. found a book with the spell in it or did the research to create it anew).

 

[HERO TECHO-BABBLE]

If you are using Variable Power Pools as the controlling construct for your magic system, this can be represented as a limitation on the pool's COntrol Cost.

[/HERO TECHO-BABBLE]

[CSgeekHero]

Re: I'm considering Hero...

 

I have seen a large number of systems over time. Before I make any recommendations, I think it best to give you a rundown of some of the systems I own.

AD&D1, AD&D2, Star Frontiers, MegaTraveller, Traveller: The New Era, Traveller20, d20 Modern, Buck Rogers:XXVc, Shatterzone, Advanced Marvel Super Heroes, DC Heroes 2nd, DC Heroes 3rd, FASA Star Trek, Prime Directive(original), Robotech, Robotech 2, Macross, Rifts, Star Wars d6, Star Wars d20, GURPS 3rd/w many several supplements( and yes Traveller is one of them), GURPS 4th, and HERO 5th/w several supplements

 

I think that's all of them, but I can't be sure.

 

So, as you can see I lean more towards the science fiction end of the spectrum.

I do own Fantasy HERO. It is an excellent take on the fantasy genre.

 

Now, if your background is GURPS, then I assume you understand the level of simulationism involved in it. Now, if your group has a background with d20, then they now what it is like to play a hack n' slash gamist type campaign.

 

So, if you like to do strict simulation, then go with GURPS 4th. However, be mindful that they have clarified and made some subtle changes in how a mage learns magic. This is to keep the power gamer in check and dissuade munchkinizing the system.

 

If you like to have a large degree of simulationism, but have the wiggle room to allow a more gamist or even narrativist style of campaign, then you will want to go with HERO 5th. There is a bit more vagueness to part of the system to better facilitate GM who like to modify the system more easily.

 

In my opinion, you can't go wrong with either one. Being you already have the complete fantasy line, use it. I don't believe you'll be disappointed.

 

As far as resources go, try this...Killer Shrike's website. He has other links on his page as well.

 

There is another just for the old Greyhawk setting here

 

Good gaming to you, obatron

[obatron]

Re: I'm considering Hero...

 

First off, thanks for all the replies! I'll check out the websites and search through the forums a little more.

 

Regarding my question of GM resources, now that I think about it, I don't think even I know. I realize I have some sort of illusion that there is some magical game tool out there that will make me think, how did I ever GM without something like this to help me prepare.

 

It could also be part of the whole cost thing as well. I don't want to buy copies of GURPS Characters for everyone, I don't want to GM D20, and Sidekick just seems like such a big savings for me.

 

I think my quandry comes from the general impression that the GURPS community is more Sci-Fi, Modern, and realistic historical and to some extent disdain fantasy. I know this may not be fair, and mean no disrepect to GURPS fans, it's just the feeling I've been getting lately.

 

While my players aren't really hack and slashers (although they like a good fight), I'm just trying to see if Fantasy Hero would be a better system to support more High Fantasy, Traditional Fantasy, etc.

 

Sorry, I realize that I'm seeming extremely vague or foggy...I'm blaming it on lack of sleep...it's way to hot here.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: I'm considering Hero...

 

the magic tool is letting someone else GM

 

I think hero is a great system for fantasy of any type (it's practically all i play hero for, besides sci fi), just start simple

[Lupaerian]

Re: I'm considering Hero...

 

While my players aren't really hack and slashers (although they like a good fight)' date=' I'm just trying to see if Fantasy Hero would be a better system to support more High Fantasy, Traditional Fantasy, etc.[/quote']

 

If you've been able to play GURPS without finding it needlessly complex, are looking for something that works nicely for tradition/high fantasy, don't mind working out things such as a magic system and/or other details, and your players like a good fight, then I'd put my money on Fantasy HERO.

 

Fantasy HERO just works better when it comes to catching that D&D feel without all the nonsense such as classes restricting your choices, fighters being able to jump off mountains, clerics always being some sort of crusading spell casting fighter wannabe even though he is worshipping the god of pacifism etc.

 

I’ve played both systems. In GURPS 3e, my players would avoid combat because fighting was a bit too lethal for their taste, didn’t feel quite heroic and involved a little too much dice rolling when two combatants with high parry/block/dodge went up against each other. In HERO, my players would cheer whenever the fighter pulled off a haymaker on some ogre or a nice sweep on a group of goblins. Combat had a much more heroic feel and my players didn’t feel like combat was something to be avoided.

 

GURPS 4e did improve on the combat system in order to allow for a more cinematic feel, but it still feels a bit like it’s geared for realism over anything else and doesn’t quite have the flexibility when it comes to designing things that falls outside the scope of the books, such as a radical new magic system or certain special abilities. Perhaps GURPS Powers will change that, but SJGames keep pushing the dates back to the point where it feels like vaporware. Because of that, I'm now porting over the bits and pieces of the fantasy campaign that I started working on not so long ago.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Hero vs. G.U.R.P.S.

 

Killer Shrike also has some great Spell System write ups on his D&D conversion web site.

 

Thanx for the reference, but I feel I must clarify that it's not a D&D conversion site -- it's a general Fantasy HERO site that also contains xD&D conversions. Theres much more content for general usage than there is material relating to converting from D&D

[CSgeekHero]

Re: I'm considering Hero...

 

It could also be part of the whole cost thing as well. I don't want to buy copies of GURPS Characters for everyone, I don't want to GM D20, and Sidekick just seems like such a big savings for me.

Sidekick is definitely the way to go. If your players want GURPS they should spring for their own. If they don't want to or can't come up with the money, then more bonus points to HERO.

 

I think my quandry comes from the general impression that the GURPS community is more Sci-Fi, Modern, and realistic historical and to some extent disdain fantasy. I know this may not be fair, and mean no disrepect to GURPS fans, it's just the feeling I've been getting lately.

While HERO and GURPS are flexible enough to do any campaign, GURPS is more mainly geared towards realism. HERO on the other hand is mainly geared towards more fantastic types of characters. HERO does Fantasy so well, because fantasy has to have larger than life characters, even in the most mundane settings. I don't think there is disdain towards fantasy by GURPS fans, it's just that the settings you mentioned just work real well in that system. Super heroes, wizards, Lord of the Rings, Conan type characters seem to work better in the HERO system.

 

While my players aren't really hack and slashers (although they like a good fight), I'm just trying to see if Fantasy Hero would be a better system to support more High Fantasy, Traditional Fantasy, etc.

Like I said, because of the nature of fantasy at all levels, HERO shines with these types of characters.

[Fox1]

Re: I'm considering Hero...

 

I found Fantasy to be the one genre that HERO does exceedly poorly and wouldn't recomend it to anyone. D&D is the better game here.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: I'm considering Hero...

 

I found Fantasy to be the one genre that HERO does exceedly poorly and wouldn't recomend it to anyone. D&D is the better game here.

Strongly disagree.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: I'm considering Hero...

 

I found Fantasy to be the one genre that HERO does exceedly poorly and wouldn't recomend it to anyone. D&D is the better game here.

 

double disagree

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: I'm considering Hero...

 

I found Fantasy to be the one genre that HERO does exceedly poorly and wouldn't recomend it to anyone. D&D is the better game here.

 

It's unfortunate you haven't been able to make it work. The rest of us are having no difficulty.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: I'm considering Hero...

 

To the spells system, there's plenty of ways to handle the "eyes light up when you find a book". The key, as already alluded to, is to enforce the characters being required to locate any spell they wish to learn. Some mechanical systems (most/all discussed in Fantasy Hero) might include:

 

(a) Pay points for each spell you want to buy

 

( Each spell has its own Skill which you can purchase to use it.

 

© Spellcasters use a Variable Power Pool, and can use any spell they find whose points will fit into the pool at no further point expenditure.

[Markdoc]

Re: I'm considering Hero...

 

I've played and GM'ed D&D through multiple incarnations. It's fine if you want to play D&D, but really blows if you want to do any other sort of fantasy gaming.

 

Since you've been playing GURPS, I figured you already made that connection

 

I've played GURPS fantasy in the past, but for fantasy games Fantasy Hero has been my choice for lo, these many years.

 

Anyhoo, compared to GURPS (never tried 4th, Ed. so only compared to earlier versions) Character creation is in some way easier than in GURPS, especially for spellcasters (no pesky Pre-req.s) but it is also less defined making it hard for some people to get started with a character. It helps with new players to use templates (standard basic barbarian, standard basic soldier, etc) and then let them customise those, at least until they are a bit experienced.

 

However, once started, play (in my experience) is smoother than GURPS. The basic mechanisms are fairly simple and they are *consistent* - once you've learned them, they are good to go.

 

The drawback, as already noted, is that you need to do some work to get up and running. There are bestiaries and grimoires available although not in the quantities you find for d20, but since the whole point of the system is customisation, you'll need to customise them to fit your setting.

 

The good news is that once you know what you want, you can then plunder all those other system's supplements for stuff you can use.

 

To take the example about making mage's eyes light up when they find ancient scrolls, you can do it multiple ways.

 

Make spells have a hard skill roll if casting them from memory, but not if read off a scroll or out of a book (variable limitation). Make inscribing (creating) written spells difficult to do (require rare inks, special powders, etc as part of the focus limitation). Since adventuring books are likely to have a limited lifespan, building up a big library with spare copies would be a good thing.

 

Only allow mages to learn (buy) new spells from detailed study of existing copies (this is just a special effect - part of the basic game rules you set as a GM). It's a common thing in the fantasy genre where the world has fallen from a golden age of magic.

 

Make spell books and scrolls independant items (meaning players have to permanently sacrifice experience points if they want to make their own) requiring a skill roll to use. In this case, anyone can use a spellbook they find - if they can read it and if they have a magic skill. In this way their eyes will REALLY light up when they find a spellbook. Mages would not buy spells with their own points: they'd spend them on obscure ancient languages and magic skills so they coud use the books and scrolls they found. But you could have dabblers, like Cugel in the Jack Vance books who knows just enough magic to really get in trouble with a stolen spell book.

 

You see the problem - there are many ways to get the effect you want. But you as the GM has to decide how you want to do it.

 

cheers, Mark