The Quintessential BODY

[Mister E]

The Quintessential BODY.

 

Okay, because of the arguments against BODY and Damage being exponential in nature, (and many of them are very valid and true), I have gone back to square-one, and meditated on the subject in a effort divest myself of all prior potentially false misconceptions, and get to the heart of the issue: what is BODY?

 

[All page references are from 5er, because that's the only book I'm using now, in an effort to become more familiar with it, and because it's the most current book.]

 

Glossary definition (pg 16) - "BODY: (1) A Characteristic representing how much injury a character can withstand before dying."

 

[I would add on to this definition, (and I'm sure everyone would agree with me), "...and how much structural damage an object can withstand before being broken."]

 

Characteristics Comparison Table (pg 40) - BODY: Weak = 1-2, Challenged = 3-5, Average = 6-10, Skilled = 11-13, Competent = 14-20, Legendary = 21-30, Superhuman = 31+.

 

[I think it's interesting that "Average" and "Competent" have two separate categories. From what I've gathered from this Discussion Board, it's because of the fact that in the original builds of superheroes, back in 1st ed., all of the example characters had fairly inflated stats... especially for DEX and CON, and that this trend has continued on to this day for game-play reasons... which is fine.]

 

Characteristics Benchmarks Tables (pg 41) - BODY: Weak = Infant, Challenged = Child/elderly person, Average = Average person, Skilled = Pro Football Player, Competent = Rasputin/Horse, Legendary = Elephant/Rhinoceros, Superhuman = Hercules/Thor/Whale.

 

[Now I would say that Rasputin (a man that had to be stabbed dozens or hundreds of times, poisoned, and drowned to be killed... and it's rumored that he lived); and a horse; were something more than "Competent". But this totally jives with my current interpretation of the BODY stat, points-wise. The 'average' average human has a BODY of 8.]

 

Determining The BODY And Defense Of An Object (pg 447) - "On the Object BODY Table, an object's BODY depends on its total mass; each doubling of mass is +1 BODY. The GM may wish to increase an object's BODY based on its size or the materials it is made of."

 

[This pretty much spells it out for everyone. Any real arguments against BODY being exponential in nature, after this, better be very creative or inspired. Otherwise, the argument will showcase the persons lack of the basic concept of what the word exponential means. Regardless, many of you have made many excellent arguments championing the linear aspect of BODY in game play, to your credit.]

 

Object BODY Table (pg 449) - 100kg (man) = 10 BODY.

 

[Fascinating. The 'average' average person has a BODY of 8, but here, we see that as an object, people should have a BODY of 10. This, to my knowledge, is representative of the 'ineffable' drive/physicality/spirit of sentient beings in a story-telling/game environment... and I extremely like this. Your 'average' average person lives a bland/mundane existence, and lacks that 'special something' that would make them both heroes, and objects with the proper BODY for their mass/size and composition. Player Characters, (and NPC's of note), on the other hand, live... breath... and eat heroic lives. They are creatures beyond the kin of normal physical capacities, and are able to push their bodies (and BODY's) to impossible limits through the sheer force of their being the focal-point of destiny and story-telling. Other characters are just ridiculously tough, which is also cool.]

 

Cheers. Link

[gojira]

Re: The Quintessential BODY

 

Determining The BODY And Defense Of An Object (pg 447) - "On the Object BODY Table, an object's BODY depends on its total mass; each doubling of mass is +1 BODY. The GM may wish to increase an object's BODY based on its size or the materials it is made of."

 

[This pretty much spells it out for everyone. Any real arguments against BODY being exponential in nature, after this, better be very creative or inspired. Otherwise, the argument will showcase the persons lack of the basic concept of what the word exponential means. Regardless, many of you have made many excellent arguments championing the linear aspect of BODY in game play, to your credit.]

I'll just fling myself into this debate here. *flings* Note the emphasis I've added above. The exponential curve for body is a suggestion, an average. The GM can change it when it makes sense to do so. So can various genre books.

 

It's all about fun and common sense. Don't like the earth having only 90 body? "It's a pile of dirt held together by gravity. You can't blow it up, it'll just fall back together again. It's gotta have like 10,000 body." So it goes. No biggie, just make up a rule that makes sense to you and move on.

 

Getting back to a slightly more realistic example, my Champions ("Champions II -- The SUPER Supplement!") lists a battleship as DEF 21 and BODY 26. An aircraft carrier is DEF 10 and BODY 27. If those seem a little low to you, just increase 'em.

 

Happy?

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: The Quintessential BODY

 

I'll just fling myself into this debate here. *flings* Note the emphasis I've added above. The exponential curve for body is a suggestion' date=' an average. The GM can change it when it makes sense to do so. So can various genre books.[/quote']

 

Exactly what I said in the "HERO is Broken" thread.

 

EDIT: And yes, the Size Chart is a tool. It helps us estimate approximately what size, mass, BODY, etcetera a particular object we want to make MIGHT be, so we have a reference point, and a place to start.

 

The thing is, I've seen both exponential AND linear qualities inherent to Strength, Body, Defense, mass, and size; it depends on what we're comparing, how we're comparing them, and various other situational modifiers/ factors. The lifting capacity provided by Strength increases exponentially. The damage done by Strength in melee combat is linear in nature.

[Mister E]

Re: The Quintessential BODY

 

The damage done by Strength in melee combat is linear in nature.

Honestly, I've heard your arguments, and I don't want to be rude, because I like you, but I don't think you know what you are talking about...

 

+5 STR = +1d6 Normal Damage = + 1 BODY = x2 Mass

 

Everything about this equation is simply an aspect of the game mechanics of the HERO System, except for the "x2 Mass" part; which is the real world/physical/tangible effect part. And it's exponential.

 

+5 STR allows you to both lift an object that is twice as heavy, and destroy an object that is twice as big, with one hit. Peroid. Nobody can effectively argue this. Yes, there are situations where this (in my opinion) very obvious expomential aspect becomes difficult to see clearly, but it is still there, and is always there. Taking Math 111; spending 30 minutes fooling around with a scientific graphing calculator; or simply understanding the difference between exponential and linear; should reasonably be enough to convince anyone of this.

 

Regardless...

 

What did you think of my discourse on the BODY stat? I thought the last paragraph was really good. Did you already know all this stuff? Do you feel like you understand BODY better? Am I a total idiot? Is there something you would like to add?

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: The Quintessential BODY

 

Yes, Mister E, it's true. The effects of Strength are exponential. If you consider a human to be essentially an object, with no attributes allowed to be purchased, yeah, it's exponential. At its base. With nothing else added, no modifications made by the GM, no outside factors taken into account -- which is fine. Man, how in the world did I allow myself to get dragged into this argument? Warp9 got about 300 posts all on the SAME THREAD from arguing about this kind of thing -- I should have known better. It's hard to argue about an ambiguous system. Of course, ALL RPG systems get ambiguous at times.

 

On your entry, I thought it was well-researched, well-thought-out, and well-written. It did increase my understanding of BODY, at least technically; however, I've never had an in-game difficulty crop up from not understanding the dynamics of BODY, so I may not get much practical use out of it.

 

I only think its silly because this argument is... I won't say a waste of time, but it sucks time up at a good clip and doesn't give much back to people except (in some cases) bitterness from being out-argued, etcetera. I recognize the value of the arguments as a purely "scientific curiousity" exercise, but as to their practical value, I am not so certain.

 

.........MADDOX IS GOD!!!

[Mister E]

Re: The Quintessential BODY

 

I'm sensing sarcasm...

 

 

Oh well. Yes, the BODY of a character is different (and more) than the BODY of an object. But a character is an object, and that should be taken into consideration when rolling a new one up. BODY doesn't really follow the same rules that all of the other stats follow. It is something very different, in many ways, and it took me a while to really figure that out, because it wasn't explicitly described anywhere in the book.

.........MADDOX IS GOD!!!

?

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: The Quintessential BODY

 

I'm sensing sarcasm...

 

But you forgot the effusive praise:

 

On your entry' date=' I thought it was well-researched, well-thought-out, and well-written.[/quote']

 

?

 

Maddox runs The Best Web Page In The Universe. Google it if you want to find out.

[Mister E]

Re: The Quintessential BODY

 

But you forgot the effusive praise

Oh, I caught it. I'm a total ego-maniac.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: The Quintessential BODY

 

You've done a fine job presenting how the rules make BODY for inanimate objects exponentially related to their mass.

 

However, I have never encountered *any* game, in *any* RPG system where inanimate objects were the stars of the show.

 

And "mass" is not an essential game concept. Most of the time, you apply your STR to the opponent directly. Unless you run an all-brick campaign, where >50% of character actions involve lifting/throwing heavy objects, or a "inanimate object" focused game where the main goal is to do property damage, I can't see any reason to call the system "exponential."

 

What color is a basketball? I'd say it's orange. I acknowledge that there are black lines on it, but I wouldn't say that a basketball is black. The biggest and most important parts of the HERO system are linear. I acknowledge that some parts are exponential.

 

Damage is applied linearly. Defenses are applied linearly. Powers are purchased linearly. Movement, experience, speed, CV, skill levels, etc. - all linear.

 

Sure, you might want to argue (or simply rule for your games) that 5d6 = X joules of energy and 6d6 = 2X joules of energy. Or that 10 STR = Y newtons of force and 20 STR = 4Y newtons of force and 30 STR = 16Y newtons. Such a ruling has no significant bearing on the game, which deals with STUN and BODY, not with joules and newtons.

 

If you want to make the argument that the game simulates the world in an exponential way, I don't have a problem with that. I might not fully agree, but I wouldn't argue about it. But the *system itself* is primarily linear.

[Enforcer84]

Re: The Quintessential BODY

 

Wait. I thought Salma Hayak was the Quintessential Body. Live and learn I guess.

[ghost-angel]

Re: The Quintessential BODY

 

Wait. I thought Salma Hayak was the Quintessential Body. Live and learn I guess.

 

RIMSHOT!

 

I'd rep you but the system won't let me... something about spreading it around, dagnabbit.

[Mister E]

Re: The Quintessential BODY

 

Okay, so it is generally agreed upon that the BODY of objects in the HERO System goes up by +1 for every doubling of size. But for whatever reason, many people have a hard time excepting the fact that this has ramifications on their characters.

 

Let me tell you, there is nothing to be afraid of.

 

This knowledge doesn't have to stifle your creativity. It's only there so you can make informed decisions when making your characters. Think of it as a baseline guide, and then note the text I highlighted in red, on my initial posting for this thread.

 

The Growth and Density Increase Powers are yet another example of this exponential connection between Size, Mass, BODY, STR, and Damage... as well as several other game mechanics; and are specifically and explicitly intended for characters.

[Kristopher]

Re: The Quintessential BODY

 

Characters, though, aren't tied to any exponential system of BODY -- that only applies inanimate objects, assuming the theory that they are is correct.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: The Quintessential BODY

 

You've done a fine job presenting how the rules make BODY for inanimate objects exponentially related to their mass.

 

However, I have never encountered *any* game, in *any* RPG system where inanimate objects were the stars of the show.

 

Never played a Mecha-oriented campaign, have you....

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: The Quintessential BODY

 

Characters' date=' though, aren't tied to any exponential system of BODY -- that only applies inanimate objects, assuming the theory that they are is correct.[/quote']

 

I've applied the exponential system of Body to my characters for years. I'm loathe to make characters who have Body scores near that of a 20th century Tank, unless of course, they are supposed to be as tough as said Tank (in a supers campaign, or maybe a Cyberpunk or Space Opera cyborg or something)

 

I very rarely give characters Body scores above 15. And that only if that character is big. In fact, in my writeups on the message board, I often equate Body scores with mass/size for characters and oftentimes I'm criticized for it.

 

"Body is indicative of will to live, not size!"

 

Tell that to Godzilla.

 

Sure, I'll give a couple of bonus Body points to a character who has an extraordinary "Will to live", but only a couple. If a character is small and skinny, he's going to get a Body of 8. A skinny guy with a strong will to live will get a Body of 10 or 11 instead. Not a Body of 18. I just don't see it that way.

 

The way I see it, a strong Will To Live will keep you alive (and awake) longer so you can finish that important task such as throw the Dark Lord's Ring of Power into the lava before expiring. A strong Will To Live, does not make you harder to chop in half with a sword. Which is exactly what more Body makes you.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: The Quintessential BODY

 

I often equate Body scores with mass/size for characters and oftentimes I'm criticized for it.

 

"Body is indicative of will to live, not size!"

 

Tell that to Godzilla.

 

Sure, I'll give a couple of bonus Body points to a character who has an extraordinary "Will to live", but only a couple. If a character is small and skinny, he's going to get a Body of 8. A skinny guy with a strong will to live will get a Body of 10 or 11 instead. Not a Body of 18. I just don't see it that way.

 

The way I see it, a strong Will To Live will keep you alive (and awake) longer so you can finish that important task such as throw the Dark Lord's Ring of Power into the lava before expiring. A strong Will To Live, does not make you harder to chop in half with a sword. Which is exactly what more Body makes you.

The can't-die-until-I-finish-this-task paradigm is a classic use of one of my favorite Hero "quirks": negative BOD, but positive Stun, bleeding to death, but using EGO rolls to keep going. Realistic and heroic in one package!

 

OTOH, there are any number of real-world examples of people being shot/stabbed/run over/whatever who lived, when other people of similar-or-larger size with near-identical injuries were dead before they hit the ground. Natalie Portman notwithstanding, some people just seem to hold on to life more strongly than others. Similarly, the before-mentioned Rasputin was slightly above-average in size, but clearly had a BOD of 20.

 

Don't know how you quantify that, in terms of how much is size vs. how much is will; don't know that you need to. But it seems to me that a game built around "Being a Hero" ought to allow some room for heroes (and villains) who are "just too tough to die."

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: The Quintessential BODY

 

The can't-die-until-I-finish-this-task paradigm is a classic use of one of my favorite Hero "quirks": negative BOD' date=' but positive Stun, bleeding to death, but using EGO rolls to keep going. Realistic and heroic in one package! [/quote']

 

Yep. I tend to give characters like that high amounts of Stun and maybe a bit of Damage Reduction (Stun only) so they stay awake as they are dying.

 

I also don't mind giving out a point or two of Combat Luck or "Toughness" (damage resistance) so that tough characters can ignore small wounds. (they take the wound, it just doesn't affect them..."I ain't got time to bleed")

 

OTOH, there are any number of real-world examples of people being shot/stabbed/run over/whatever who lived, when other people of similar-or-larger size with near-identical injuries were dead before they hit the ground. Natalie Portman notwithstanding, some people just seem to hold on to life more strongly than others. Similarly, the before-mentioned Rasputin was slightly above-average in size, but clearly had a BOD of 20.

 

Such cases are variables involved with rolling damage dice. A .50 machine gun does 3D6K damage. On average, its going to do 10.5 Body per hit. Enough to seriously injure or kill normal people in a single hit (provided you are using Impairing/Disabling rules) however, occasionally, the minimum damage will be seen...a mere 3 Body, not even an imparing wound. "He was shot through the chest by several .50 rounds and was still able to drag his wounded comrade to safety..." Chances are slim, but it does occasionally happen...in game as well as in real life.

 

Rasputin?

 

He was a freaking mutant!

 

To represent a freak like him (and other characters with an extreme will to live) I would give him:

 

+10 Body (20)

No figured characteristics (-1/2)

Only to determine point of Death (-1)

8pts.

 

Thus, even if Rasputin only has a Body of 16, for purposes of killing him, you have to take him down to -26 Body!

 

Don't know how you quantify that, in terms of how much is size vs. how much is will; don't know that you need to. But it seems to me that a game built around "Being a Hero" ought to allow some room for heroes (and villains) who are "just too tough to die."

 

See my write-up above. I think it does a pretty good job of quantifying that.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: The Quintessential BODY

 

The can't-die-until-I-finish-this-task paradigm is a classic use of one of my favorite Hero "quirks": negative BOD' date=' but positive Stun, bleeding to death, but using EGO rolls to keep going. Realistic and heroic in one package! [/quote']

 

The Negative BODY/ Positive STUN thing is... well, let's say a guy gets both arms chopped off. He's still awake to feel it! Ouch! Bleeding to death, but using EGO rolls to stay awake seems realistic to an extent; all a matter of willpower! Ever been to give blood? They usually have cookies available to prevent people from fainting (I've seen that happen). FAINT!? To hell with that! Someone tried to hold my arm and help me to a chair once after I gave blood, and I broke loose and sprinted around the building, then back to my car.

 

OTOH' date=' there are any number of real-world examples of people being shot/stabbed/run over/whatever who lived, when other people of similar-or-larger size with near-identical injuries were dead before they hit the ground. Natalie Portman notwithstanding, some people just seem to hold on to life more strongly than others. Similarly, the before-mentioned Rasputin was slightly above-average in size, but clearly had a BOD of 20.[/quote']

 

Sounds about right to me.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: The Quintessential BODY

 

Okay' date=' so it is generally agreed upon that the BODY of objects in the HERO System goes up by +1 for every doubling of size.[/quote']

Oh? The quote you sited is "On the Object BODY Table, an object's BODY depends on its total mass; each doubling of mass is +1 BODY." (Emphasis mine) Note that it doesn't say "In the HERO System,..." I have always viewed this table as a *guideline* in determining the BODY of inanimate objects, but you seem to take it as the central mechanic of the entire system. Note the sentence which immediately follows: "The GM may wish to increase an object's BODY based on its size or the materials it is made of." In addition, the Focus rules (don't have the exact page # for you) say that some focuses are fragile and have less than the usual rated BODY. Likewise Entagles have BODY, but does anyone refer to the Object BODY Table to determine the weight of a mess-o-Spidey-webs? I simply see no reason to assume that that table is the foundation of the whole system or that the whole system is therefore exponential. It seems to me to be a fairly minor part of the system. If there's a leaf of lettuce on my hamburger, I skill call it a hamburger, not a lettuce sandwich which parenthetically happens to have a quarter pound of beef on it. That's why I say the system is linear.

 

But for whatever reason, many people have a hard time excepting the fact that this has ramifications on their characters.

Minor ones at best.

 

Let me tell you, there is nothing to be afraid of.

I'm not afraid of anything here, certainly not of exponential scales. I happen to love math. And I acknowledge that some parts of the system are indeed exponential. It's never caused me any fear.

 

This knowledge doesn't have to stifle your creativity.

It never has. Would it stifle yours if you felt the system was entirely (or primarily) linear?

 

It's only there so you can make informed decisions when making your characters. Think of it as a baseline guide, and then note the text I highlighted in red, on my initial posting for this thread.

I don't make characters by thinking about how big an inanimate object they can destroy. I think about how they fight against the bad guys.

 

If your particular game, genre, or setting depend on various exponential scales to create effects you want, then it's your game that's exponential, not the system. There are plenty of games and genres and settings where no exponential scales are needed at all.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: The Quintessential BODY

 

Never played a Mecha-oriented campaign' date=' have you....[/quote']

No I haven't. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought that a Mecha represented a *character*. If it's not a giant AI robot, it has a living person inside it. Are Mechas considered inanimate objects? I thought they were human shaped and walk around and fight and have a conscious will controlling them.

 

But who knows? Maybe someone will run a Furniture HERO game. Now, you can enjoy the excitement of playing a wisdom-bearing Bookshelf, a cold-using Refridgerator, a sturdy Wall, or even a colorful Traffic Light!

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: The Quintessential BODY

 

No I haven't. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought that a Mecha represented a *character*. If it's not a giant AI robot, it has a living person inside it. Are Mechas considered inanimate objects? I thought they were human shaped and walk around and fight and have a conscious will controlling them.

 

But who knows? Maybe someone will run a Furniture HERO game. Now, you can enjoy the excitement of playing a wisdom-bearing Bookshelf, a cold-using Refridgerator, a sturdy Wall, or even a colorful Traffic Light!

 

Most Mecha in most roleplaying games are written up as vehicles, or are in a separate class by themselves, but still basically vehicles. "Drone" mecha are uncommon in the Mecha genre; most are piloted. Some, like the Evas in Neon Genesis Evangelion, or a few other animes, have minds of their own, although this rarely means they get to act autonomously.

 

In my mind, the most accurate and practical write-up of a Mecha is to write it up as a vehicle.

[zornwil]

Re: The Quintessential BODY

 

Mr. E, that is an excellent post and you shall be repped, but the BOD reference to objects does as much as indicate it's a guide and at the low granularity of the human and similar (consider how rapidly +1 doubles) as well as the reality of normals starting with 10s and migrating, when qualified as "average", to 8s, as well as the fact that there is simply no governance of BOD and characters (NPC or PC - even more "realistic" Hero flavors have some BOD well, well beyond mass and they may have less, depending), I think it's a bit of a leap to ascribe a specific reasoning or meaning to average people having 8 and the object BOD listing/doubling.

 

I agree BOD is exponential, sure, but the point is it is more fudged with characters than other objects, to the point where making systemic presumptions is difficult.

 

However, all that said, I like your explanation a lot.

 

But I would also point out that you shoiuld correct your statement "and how much structural damage an object can withstand before being destroyed." - it is how much before it is broken. A small but meaningful distinction.

[Trebuchet]

Re: The Quintessential BODY

 

Okay' date=' so it is generally agreed upon that the BODY of objects in the HERO System goes up by +1 for every doubling of size[/quote']Yes, but what exactly does "twice as big" mean in HERO? If it means "double in all three dimensions" then the object's mass has just cubed. And mass is what a character lifts with his STR. +5 STR allows a character to lift double the mass; not the original mass³. So how are these to be reconciled?

[Mister E]

Re: The Quintessential BODY

 

Yes' date=' but what exactly does "twice as big" mean in HERO? If it means "double in all three dimensions" then the object's [i']mass[/i] has just cubed. And mass is what a character lifts with his STR. +5 STR allows a character to lift double the mass; not the original mass³. So how are these to be reconciled?

You have brought this up before, and I think your argument is silly. 5 Character Points worth of Growth makes you twice as big, and grants you x2 mass. 15 Character Points worth of Growth is required to grant you x2 height, but coincidently grants you x8 mass.

 

What exactly is the point you are trying to make?

[Mister E]

Re: The Quintessential BODY

 

Mr. E' date=' that is an excellent post and you shall be repped, but the BOD reference to objects does as much as indicate it's a guide and at the low granularity of the human and similar (consider how rapidly +1 doubles) as well as the reality of normals starting with 10s and migrating, when qualified as "average", to 8s, as well as the fact that there is simply no governance of BOD and characters (NPC or PC - even more "realistic" Hero flavors have some BOD well, well beyond mass and they may have less, depending), I think it's a bit of a leap to ascribe a specific reasoning or meaning to average people having 8 and the object BOD listing/doubling.[/quote']Well, I did use the word 'ineffable'... sure it's a leap, that's why I started this thread. All I really want to do is contribute what I can, to the general corpus of understanding the people of this Discussion Board has.

I agree BOD is exponential' date=' sure, but the point is it is more fudged with characters than other objects, to the point where making systemic presumptions is difficult.[/quote']Not as much as you might think. Note, for instance, some of the entries in the Characteristics Benchmarks Table (page 41 5er):

 

1) A pro football player has a BODY of 11-13

2) Rasputin, a character attributed with legendary fortitude and survivability, has a BODY of 14-20.

 

Obviously, this is very much different from all of the other Characteristics, which put mundane virtuosos in the 14-20 range, and the truly rarified elite in the 21-30 range. This, to me, seems like an attempt to mirror the +1 BODY = x2 effectiveness rule. Rasputin isn't in the 21-30 range, because that would be more like the +5 = x2 effectiveness of STR and Damage.

However, all that said, I like your explanation a lot.

 

But I would also point out that you shoiuld correct your statement "and how much structural damage an object can withstand before being destroyed." - it is how much before it is broken. A small but meaningful distinction.

Consider it fixed. Thanks. =)