Telepaths Must Die!

[transmetahuman]

From another thread, long dead, but relevant to concord's Registration Act thread:

THREAT LEVEL ZERO: Reserved for three classes of novas: those with "psionic" powers' date=' especially Telepathy & Mind Control; those novas designated as global threats like Isvatha V'han and the dread Takofanes; and Dr. Destroyer. Officially we cannot order you to shoot-on-sight, as this violates certain human rights laws. Unofficially? Don't hesitate.[/quote']

. . .so' date=' in your world, being a telepath is a shoot-on-sight offense??[/quote']

I can understand this. It's the main reason I'd be one of the people voting FOR the paranormal registration act in concord's USA.

 

It's not the Telepathy; I'm not that private a person. Whatever dark secrets I might have deep down inside, I'm pretty confident that any telepath that's been around has seen much worse.

 

It's the way Telepathy so often goes hand in hand with various flavors of Mind Control. How could anyone stay friends with a known mind controller? No matter how ethical he seemed, you would never really know whether he was altering your perception of him, or even the basic values by which you judge his friendship. Once anything happens that might create the shadow of a suspicion, how could you ever get rid of it? You literally can't trust your own judgement around him.

 

Given what Prof. Xavier has done in the comics, I would never join up with the X-Men; I'd never willingly interact with him. I'd honestly be sorely tempted to kill him once I realized the extent of his power. I don't care that he has good intentions - my parents want only the best for me, but I'd never give them the ability to reprogram me. In fact, the fact that they care so much about me would mean they are that much more likely to adjust me "for my own good".

 

There are lots of characters who would be exceptions - one trick pony MCs wouldn't bother me if It was satisfactorily proven that all they can do is, say, induce fear temporarily, or can't reach the level of effect where the victim thinks it's his own idea. "Visible" power effects would also ease my mind a lot. It's the more subtle, personality-altering telepaths in comics that would scare the poop out of me, if I thought they existed.

 

And so... this guy claims he can't do that kind of thing, but he does have some kind of mind powers, and we all know that peoples' powers develop over time and mental powers tend to be linked... Besides, he might be lying. If I had MC powers I know that I'd try to underplay them, if I was absolutely unable to hide them completely. And I'd be doing it out of self-preservation.

 

And - realistically, from a military/political perspective - such people just plain wouldn't be allowed to exist. Unless, possibly, they could themselves be controlled (or defended against) with absolute certainty. They're an utter nightmare from any kind of military security standpoint, as are telepaths.

 

So, yeah. I'm a very liberal, live and let live kinda guy. And I completely understand TheEmerged's (world's people's) point. They'd creep me the hell out.

[Phil]

Re: Telepaths Must Die!

 

Given what Prof. Xavier has done in the comics, I would never join up with the X-Men; I'd never willingly interact with him. I'd honestly be sorely tempted to kill him once I realized the extent of his power.

So, yeah. I'm a very liberal, live and let live kinda guy.

 

Emphasis my own!

[transmetahuman]

Re: Telepaths Must Die!

 

Now, now... "Live and let live kinda guy" isn't a total commitment Code vs Killing. I'm juxtaposing the two statements to emphasize how extraordinary my reaction would be. Are you saying you disagree? Imagine knowing that one of your friends, maybe a drinking or gaming buddy, could do what Prof. X can do. Imagine what would go through your mind the next time you had an argument - or realized that you never seemed to have arguments.

 

I'm just sayin...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Telepaths Must Die!

 

Now' date=' now... "Live and let live kinda guy" isn't a total commitment Code vs Killing. I'm juxtaposing the two statements to emphasize how extraordinary my reaction would be. Are you saying you disagree? Imagine knowing that one of your friends, maybe a drinking or gaming buddy, could do what Prof. X can do. Imagine what would go through your mind the next time you had an argument - or realized that you never seemed to [i']have[/i] arguments.

 

So what goes through your head if you're arguing with someone like:

 

- Radioactive Man (am I the only one who loved Thunderbolts' "Back off or I'll sterilize you" line?)

 

- The Thing

 

- Sunfire/Human Torch

 

- Wolverine

 

Pretty much any serious offensive superpower should create some pretty serious intimidation. It's hardly restricted to subtle powers like Telepathy. I think most of the source material where it is restricted to telepaths (eg. Babylon 5) has no other superpowers in the populace.

[transmetahuman]

Re: Telepaths Must Die!

 

So what goes through your head if you're arguing with someone like:

 

- Radioactive Man (am I the only one who loved Thunderbolts' "Back off or I'll sterilize you" line?)

 

- The Thing

 

- Sunfire/Human Torch

 

- Wolverine

 

Pretty much any serious offensive superpower should create some pretty serious intimidation. It's hardly restricted to subtle powers like Telepathy. I think most of the source material where it is restricted to telepaths (eg. Babylon 5) has no other superpowers in the populace.

True, but I'm a little guy, it doesn't take a metahuman to intimidate me. And I didn't see Thunderbolts, but that is a great line...

 

I was more talking about a friendly (or at least nonviolent) argument, and a power that can be used undetectably. The results are undetectable, too, if they're subtle. In ordinary social interaction - including most arguments - you can usually rely on the social contract and reprisal for attacks to deter the use of most offensive powers. What stops someone from using a nearly undetectable power that the victim can't even recognize as an attack?

 

I'll note here that I'm not so much talking about Champions Mind Control, which has at least some built-in limits on use (like the need to concentrate, and mechanisms for detection), as Marvel or DC MC as portrayed in the comics- where Charlie could probably change you from Republican to Democrat while carrying on a conversation about the latest Stallone movie, and unless you hang out other telepaths, you'd never know it.

 

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I just can't see people socializing so easily with people who they know can undetectably change who they are. Sure, they trust them not to... but can they trust why they trust?

 

Dang, I'm cutting myself off from ever meeting any mentalists on this board, aren't I? And I'd love to see proof that psi is real- from a distance...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Telepaths Must Die!

 

Maybe I'm in the minority here' date=' but I just can't see people socializing so easily with people who they know can undetectably change who they are. Sure, they trust them not to... but can they trust why they trust?[/quote']

 

But doesn't the fact you have some misgivings about whether they can be trusted indicate they aren't influencing you to trust them? hmmm...working that out would be a good SFX for an Ego Attack.

[transmetahuman]

Re: Telepaths Must Die!

 

But doesn't the fact you have some misgivings about whether they can be trusted indicate they aren't influencing you to trust them? hmmm...working that out would be a good SFX for an Ego Attack.

I know that he knows that I know that he knows that I know that he knows that I know that he knows that I know that he knows that I know that he knows that I know that he knows that I know that he knows that I know that he knows that I know that he knows that I know that he knows that I know that he knows that I know that he knows that......

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Telepaths Must Die!

 

here's something else to scare the poop out of you, it's a variant on a character called "the ultimate assasin"

 

you have a VPP pool of summonings, with mega scale summoning, summon who ever you want (with specific being), but slavishly loyal to you.

 

someone could sit in their house and make the entire government their puppets with enough time

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Telepaths Must Die!

 

here's something else to scare the poop out of you, it's a variant on a character called "the ultimate assasin"

 

you have a VPP pool of summonings, with mega scale summoning, summon who ever you want (with specific being), but slavishly loyal to you.

 

someone could sit in their house and make the entire government their puppets with enough time

 

they'd have to have a very high ego, or never command them to do anything until the time was right. Kinda like brainwashing...That would be creepy...but then enough money does the same thing IMO

[Cancer]

Re: Telepaths Must Die!

 

I had the idea for a novel, where the protagonist was persecuted by someone who could read his mind. (That was the only non-standard-Earth thing in the whole situation.) The telepath was obnoxious but doesn't take any clearly life-threatening actions, just nasty sanity-threatening ones, and communicated with the victim only via mail, email, phone calls from public phones, etc. In other words, he's a complete unknown to the victim.

 

The flip side is the telepath's story. He wakes up one morning and cannot help but read that one person's mind, full-time, all the time. No explanation, no apparent mechanism, never heard of the victim before in his life. Sort of a Twilight Zone situation. He can't read anyone else's mind, and there's nothing else unusual about him. Both Telepath and Victim are otherwise perfectly ordinary individuals.

 

I couldn't decide how to resolve it, nor how it would develop. Would Telepath hound Victim to his death just so that he'd have peace and quiet in his own mind? Would Victim figure out a way to deduce Telepath's identity and do something about it? It's an idea that's been sitting on my mental shelf for, oh, 20 years now....

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Telepaths Must Die!

 

Would Telepath hound Victim to his death just so that he'd have peace and quiet in his own mind? Would Victim figure out a way to deduce Telepath's identity and do something about it? It's an idea that's been sitting on my mental shelf for' date=' oh, 20 years now....[/quote']

If you wanted to do it Twilight Zone-style, then after the telepath has killed the person whose mind he couldn't help reading...after he's had a few moments of blessed relief...he finds that he's automatically "locked on" to a new person, completely unknown to him, and the whole thing starts all over again...

[Phil]

Re: Telepaths Must Die!

 

If you wanted to do it Twilight Zone-style' date=' then after the telepath has killed the person whose mind he couldn't help reading...after he's had a few moments of blessed relief...he finds that he's automatically "locked on" to a new person, completely unknown to him, and the whole thing starts all over again...[/quote']

 

No, even better, he's continuing to read the mind of the dead person, only that person is now in Hell....

[Vorsch]

Re: Telepaths Must Die!

 

Telepaths are in no way similar to supes or wolverine when it comes to intimidate. There are many scary people in the world that if they find you can beat you up/kill you and you would be hard pressed to stop them.

 

But at least its your choice to submit or die or fight, even against overwhelming physical superiority.

 

Telepaths/ Mind controllers go way beyond that, they dont have to rob you for your money if they wanted it thay could make you give it them or just scan your pin number. In a world where the right info can launch nuclear weapons or crash the stock market telepaths would represent the greatest threat to world security possible.

 

Im mean to say in X 2 the good prof casually talks about killing people by concentrating on them ( so hes tried this little trick has he? ) and then he builds a machine that allows him to kill or controll the whole world. Maybe hes happy with the upper hand but im sure hed be the first to kill a group of alien telepaths doing the same thing ( even if they never intended to harm a soul ).

 

All telepathy effect can be game breakers if used with even a fraction of there utility, and sudenley ever NPC has lots of mental def ( cos as a gm will tell you the game dosent work if everone can be mind controlled )

 

PS I love playing Telepaths, call it psionics and stick in TK effects......

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Telepaths Must Die!

 

they'd have to have a very high ego' date=' or never command them to do anything until the time was right. Kinda like brainwashing...That would be creepy...but then enough money does the same thing IMO[/quote']

 

but untraceable, and you can just do it multiple times.

[assault]

Re: Telepaths Must Die!

 

So what goes through your head if you're arguing with someone like:

 

- Radioactive Man

 

Probably confusion. At least if you are talking about this character:

http://www.answers.com/topic/radioactive-man

 

On telepaths:

One of my world's dirty secrets is why the Cold War lasted as long as it did, given that the West had a virtual monopoly of superbeings.

[Lightray]

In my own Champions game, psionics are a completely separate power origin than the other Universal Source (= magic). They're easily detectable as such to Mental Awareness, even if they're things like telekinesis or teleportation (conversely, magic-sourced telepathy effects don't show up to Mental Awareness).

 

PSI was one of the early opponents of the player characters, and developed into a kind of psionic terrorist organization. They ratcheted up the paranoia against psis considerably -- with only a couple of PC mentalists as examples of "good" psionics (and only 'cause they've been careful with their powers. so far).

 

For a while, the government in Washington DC was scrambling to locate anyone with psionic powers, to serve as living "psi-detectors" in case someone started messing with minds in the government again. That was, of course, pretty much what PSI wanted in the first place.

 

Much of the public fear had developed because of telepaths reading secrets and blackmailing politicians, controlling minds, planting telepathic commands to cause innocent people to become terror weapons, causing riots from mental illusions and emotion manipulation, and similiar acts of mental terrorism.

 

The player characters were able to foil PSI's plans, and capture their leadership. However, the public is still deeply suspicious of psis -- kind of my Marvel mutant analog.

 

It was interesting that when one of the occasonal PCs on the team (usually he was an NPC) betrayed them to assume control of PSI, the other psis on the team weren't upset once he explained that he was going to turn PSI away from terrorism and back to protecting psis in danger (since they now needed protecting more than ever).

[TheEmerged]

Re: Telepaths Must Die!

 

Can I chime in? Speaking for the campaign world the original quote comes from, it's important to remember that the campaign world was nearly conquered by a mind-control villain during the late 70's. This directly led to this campaign world's registration acts -- although the actual implementation was more complicated due to politics (long story, pointless tangent).

 

I enacted this as part of a campaign justification for one aspect of a campaign rule I'm enforcing -- the "no power that trivializes a mystery" rule. I didn't want the PC's to think they were being 'picked on', so I went to this extreme to minimize the number of psionics in the campaign world. Of course it also meant the surviving psionics tend to be rather more powerful...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Telepaths Must Die!

 

Probably confusion. At least if you are talking about this character:

http://www.answers.com/topic/radioactive-man

 

No, I was speaking of the Marvel Comics character.

[TheRavenIs]

Re: Telepaths Must Die!

 

I am currently playing in and will be running a game that has Mentalist, Psionics are the rarest of all types of Super-Powers. In the world that I play one of the few mentalist's, she is a telecyber. The total number of Psionics on the planet number is around 15, with +/- 5.

 

The world that I will be running will have mentalist's showing up at a little higher numbers, around 1 in 50,000,000. This means that eventually the number will be around 80, with most having very minor powers, and only a few with dangerous levels.

[SatinKitty]

Re: Telepaths Must Die!

 

I started playing Champions in 1988 and my second ever, and longest running character, was a Mind Controller. She spent most of her time in psychiatry repairing the damage in other minds caused by villains with mental powers. Someone like this is a necessity in any world containing egoists. I played her for so long she got to the point where she could take on Menton. Never got the chance, though. She was my best alltime character, and Telepath/Telekinetics are my favorite kind of character to play.

 

But if I really had MC I would definitely hide it, even from my husband. If you've ever read Firestarter by Stephen King, that's what I think would happen to all supers, at least all with ego powers of any kind, unless there were enough of them to fight back and prevent it. In the George RR Martin Wild Cards world, Russia controlled all its supers by imprisoning their families. The supers knew that their loved one's continued comfort and safety depended on the super's absolute obedience. With telepaths anyway, I think that would happen here too.

[Phil]

Re: Telepaths Must Die!

 

In the George RR Martin Wild Cards world' date=' Russia controlled all its supers by imprisoning their families. The supers knew that their loved one's continued comfort and safety depended on the super's absolute obedience. [/quote']

 

Very similar to the approach taken by Lex Luthor in Dark Knight Strikes Again (although I find this rather less than convincing in many regards when we're talking about the World's Greatest Heroes )

[assault]

Re: Telepaths Must Die!

 

No' date=' I was speaking of the Marvel Comics character.[/quote']

 

Ah. Much less fun.

[David Blue]

Re: Telepaths Must Die!

 

Whether all "telepaths must die " depends on the paranoia level. From an honest telepath's point of view, there are essentially two levels:

(1) People get paranoid some or all of the time over what telepaths can do with their powers.

(2) People get paranoid, some or more usually all the time, over scary powers that they attribute to telepaths or alleged telepaths whether said (alleged or real) telepaths have them or not, and whether said (alleged or real) telepaths are inclined to abuse them or not.

 

I'm sympathetic to level 1 anti-telepathic telepathy, so I've spent a lot of time building telepaths whose powers can't be abused, or not more easily than any other sort of power can be abused. Of course such characters require gamemaster cooperation and are not cost-efficient, but I sometimes get to play them and they are fun, for me anyway. (Tastes vary.)

 

A level one safe telepathic power I like a lot and have used in various games is the ability to let others read your mind. It's great for hyper-intelligent and other wise well-informed characters who wish to assist or guide others, it's great for communicating across language and other barriers, and it's great for demonstrating your honesty and character. It's great for settling down frightened troops and other nervous friendlies. It can also scare people. ("Do you think I'm bluffing? Read my mind, please. Walk all around inside my psyche, look for a weakness anywhere.")

 

This works really well for a completely upright leader, which is how I've used it most. If "everybody" has shameful secrets, failures, moral weaknesses and at least little betrayals on their conscience, and you don't and can prove it as easily as saying "hello," it starts you off in a position of great advantage with potential followers. With a little help from your friends, you may also be able to build really good mental defences with lots of lack of weakness.

 

The only down-side is, if you ever blot your copy-book ... well, just don't, that's all.

 

But level one safe powers don't help you with level two anti-telepathic paranoia.

 

Paranoid X assumes because you are an (honest and therefore admitted) telepath that you are also a fiendish fully invisible mind controller. You demonstrate the contrary, or offer to, and Paranoid X just says: "Aha, that's just the effects of the fully invisible all-sense mental illusionary powers I also attribute to you. Any proof of your innocence I see is just the workings of your demonic psychic powers, and thus further proof of your guilt. Die, evil witch!"

 

At that point, the best option is to shut down the mind link if any and shoot Paranoid X in the head. You justify it to the next potential follower as military necessity, and hope politely that they'll be more reasonable. There's no need to explain to anyone reading your thoughts and memories what will happen if they aren't.

[transmetahuman]

Re: Telepaths Must Die!

 

Whether all "telepaths must die " depends on the paranoia level. From an honest telepath's point of view, there are essentially two levels:

(1) People get paranoid some or all of the time over what telepaths can do with their powers.

(2) People get paranoid, some or more usually all the time, over scary powers that they attribute to telepaths or alleged telepaths whether said (alleged or real) telepaths have them or not, and whether said (alleged or real) telepaths are inclined to abuse them or not.

 

I'm sympathetic to level 1 anti-telepathic telepathy, so I've spent a lot of time building telepaths whose powers can't be abused, or not more easily than any other sort of power can be abused. Of course such characters require gamemaster cooperation and are not cost-efficient, but I sometimes get to play them and they are fun, for me anyway. (Tastes vary.)

 

A level one safe telepathic power I like a lot and have used in various games is the ability to let others read your mind. It's great for hyper-intelligent and other wise well-informed characters who wish to assist or guide others, it's great for communicating across language and other barriers, and it's great for demonstrating your honesty and character. It's great for settling down frightened troops and other nervous friendlies. It can also scare people. ("Do you think I'm bluffing? Read my mind, please. Walk all around inside my psyche, look for a weakness anywhere.")

 

This works really well for a completely upright leader, which is how I've used it most. If "everybody" has shameful secrets, failures, moral weaknesses and at least little betrayals on their conscience, and you don't and can prove it as easily as saying "hello," it starts you off in a position of great advantage with potential followers. With a little help from your friends, you may also be able to build really good mental defences with lots of lack of weakness.

 

The only down-side is, if you ever blot your copy-book ... well, just don't, that's all.

 

But level one safe powers don't help you with level two anti-telepathic paranoia.

 

Paranoid X assumes because you are an (honest and therefore admitted) telepath that you are also a fiendish fully invisible mind controller. You demonstrate the contrary, or offer to, and Paranoid X just says: "Aha, that's just the effects of the fully invisible all-sense mental illusionary powers I also attribute to you. Any proof of your innocence I see is just the workings of your demonic psychic powers, and thus further proof of your guilt. Die, evil witch!"

 

At that point, the best option is to shut down the mind link if any and shoot Paranoid X in the head. You justify it to the next potential follower as military necessity, and hope politely that they'll be more reasonable. There's no need to explain to anyone reading your thoughts and memories what will happen if they aren't.

Interesting. Add a third level: people who aren't quite as upstanding and shame-free as you who, having just experienced a demonstration of complete telepathic awareness of a mind, become hyperaware of their own shameful secrets. There's also the matter of your memories - if they know everything you've done, they know everything you've seen in anyone else's mind... and know that everyone else you ever do this with will now know their secrets...

 

Some might simply want their secrets kept. Some might actually get jealous of your stain-free life and hate you for it (I'm not saying that will be common, it's just another threat category). Some might see in your mind your forgiveness for the relatively minor sins of your common man (and I assume a socially-functioning telepath almost has to develop that to survive), and be put at ease.

[transmetahuman]

Re: Telepaths Must Die!

 

Let me put this another way.

 

Man is a social animal. Attempting to get other people to "see things my way" is something we all do, all the time. Everyone on this board is doing it, every time we post- even if we don't expect to actually change anyone's opinion, we want our viewpoint understood. It's a far more common function of language than the mere sharing of factual information. Our whole culture runs on advertising. It's arguably what all art is about.

 

Subtle and versatile mind control is the ultimate tool for this. You don't need words which might not fit, might not be put together as well as you'd like, and might not be comprehended in the way intended- you simply will the other person to understand... and, if you like, to agree.

 

A refusal to use it would be like the most talented and persuasive writer in the history of the world, refusing to use words. It could happen, because of fear of reprisal, or empathy with the way it would make a victim feel if he knew it had happened... but the temptation to use an indetectable ability to persuade- that is more powerful, more useful, than anything else man has come up with- would have to be incredible.

 

At first, an ethical mind controller might only use it to share comprehension. But a lot of times, sharing comprehension means sharing a common framework. It would be a slippery slope, with the things the MC felt most passionately about - and the things he has been most frustrated in his ability to share using other means - being the things he most wants to share.

 

Empathizing with the MC, I could understand what a terrible temptation it would be to use that power. I could forgive him for using it, assuming his intentions are good. Which is why I would have a difficult time trusting someone not to use it.

 

I don't feel that that is paranoia. I believe it would be a widespread attitude in a world where mind control existed, and therefore might be something that mentalist PCs in realistic (as opposed to "based on the genre", which is actually more what I prefer for many reasons like this) campaign worlds might like to explore, and that GMs deinitely should.