Magic system question

[Adventus]

Re: Magic system question

 

I would like to address the stealing issue.

 

What you could do is have the spell get weaker each time it is stolen. and that you get that person in your head, slowly driving you insane. this could be represented by psych disad side effects on the 'spell'

And the more powers you steal, the weaker ALL of your powers become.

causing the theft of powers to be a game of diminishing returns.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic system question

 

Oh, I think there's some confusion here.

 

I agree, Shrike, that would be an excellent system for having stealable totemic powers of the kind MarkDoc is proposing. Amazing work, as usual.

 

But, what we were talking about with the VPP was for a system like that used in FFVIII, where magic spells are all Independant - Single Use (1-Charge) spells that are actually stolen from the spell collections of others before that person or creature can use them. Mages cannot actually generate spells, they can only "acquire" them, but even then, once they've cast that spell they've used it up and lost it. Where magic spells are generated from would depend on the campaign in question (in FFVIII they were from the magical critters of the world I believe) but the point is mages are collecting them like they might collect scrolls or potions in another campaign.

 

So, Pinecone's thoughts were that you could use a VPP to represent the character's capacity to "hold" spells, but I can see how that's an awful lot to ask considering that they're not able to keep said spells. Probably making a talent like you're talking about would be best, and treating the acquired spells like they were equipment. Maybe the cost of the talent would reflect the number of stolen spells the character was capable of storing at a time, with the option of "losing" a spell to open up space for new ones.

 

Rob

 

 

I would treat spells like that as Scrolls without a Focus. Non Recoverable Charges instead of Independent. Acquisition of them would be treated like Equipment.

 

To make sure that only "Wizards" can use them, put a RSR: Magic Skill Of Some Sort lim on them; you can modify it down to no penalty to skill roll for a net of -0 if you want; the key point is to use them you have to have a Magic Skill and thus not everyone can acquire and use them.

[UltraRob]

Re: Magic system question

 

I would treat spells like that as Scrolls without a Focus. Non Recoverable Charges instead of Independent. Acquisition of them would be treated like Equipment.

 

To make sure that only "Wizards" can use them, put a RSR: Magic Skill Of Some Sort lim on them; you can modify it down to no penalty to skill roll for a net of -0 if you want; the key point is to use them you have to have a Magic Skill and thus not everyone can acquire and use them.

 

Okay, that should work well enough.

 

Rob

[pinecone]

Re: Magic system question

 

But the point is, unless he knows how to steal your magic (or that it's even possible) he won't have anything to gain but pain for trying. As MarkDoc pointed out, you have to have a pretty good motivation for facing down a legendary warrior who cuts men in two with a flick of his wrist.

 

Well if he's so ignorant he has no clue that he can't steal it...he just heard it was possable, so what the hey! As for facing down a hero? No way! "Daughter, go bathe in the stream" "But father, I bathed last saturday, it's not time yet..." "Daughter, do as you are told, or I will bash you with this shovel..." Horst the Randy, victor of a hundred battles...yadda yadda..."Woa that is one hot peasant chick. I bet her father would feel honored to raise the son of a hero.." WHAM..... Gunthor the dirt farmer "Hmmm...shouldn't there be some goofy lightning and Queen music about now?"..

 

 

Yes, I guess that would have to be the way to do it. You have a VPP, but you can only fill it with spells you stole from others, and the VPP size represents your limit in stolen spells. Mind you, this seems awfully expensive if each spell is single use and then it's gone until you aquire a new one.

 

Rob

Yeah I think going the hand wave is the right choice, especially when adapting something to Hero, fantasy even moreso...

[Curufea]

Re: Magic system question

 

It's interesting where the word Mana comes from actually - Moses and the tribes of Israel starving in the desert asking God for food. "Mana from heaven". Woke up in the morning, grounds covered in a bread-like substance.

I believe it actually means "unknown" or "I don't know".

[UltraRob]

Re: Magic system question

 

Well if he's so ignorant he has no clue that he can't steal it...he just heard it was possable, so what the hey! As for facing down a hero? No way! "Daughter, go bathe in the stream" "But father, I bathed last saturday, it's not time yet..." "Daughter, do as you are told, or I will bash you with this shovel..." Horst the Randy, victor of a hundred battles...yadda yadda..."Woa that is one hot peasant chick. I bet her father would feel honored to raise the son of a hero.." WHAM..... Gunthor the dirt farmer "Hmmm...shouldn't there be some goofy lightning and Queen music about now?"..

 

Although in theory, that can happen in any fantasy campaign, in fact it's suprising that doesn't happen more often. The number of magic items that could be stolen in that method is horrific.

 

 

Yeah I think going the hand wave is the right choice, especially when adapting something to Hero, fantasy even moreso...

 

Just seems a shame to need to do that hand-waving, but I guess the HERO magic system is best kept in the hands of the GM.

 

Rob

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Magic system question

 

It's interesting where the word Mana comes from actually - Moses and the tribes of Israel starving in the desert asking God for food. "Mana from heaven". Woke up in the morning, grounds covered in a bread-like substance.

I believe it actually means "unknown" or "I don't know".

 

Just to be pedantic, you're talking about manna. Mana is a Polynesian word for magic.

[Markdoc]

Re: Magic system question

 

Although in theory, that can happen in any fantasy campaign, in fact it's suprising that doesn't happen more often. The number of magic items that could be stolen in that method is horrific.

 

Amusing side-note - in the game King of Dragon Pass, one of the events that can happen is you get visited by wandering adventurers.

 

My tribe invited them in for dinner and then ambushed them (hey, they're not of our people, the rules of hospitality didn't apply). Although the 5 of them killed as many people as a full-fledged battle against a rival tribe (I didn't expect them to be so tough...) we got more loot and magical stuff than the whole tribe had made in 5 years of exploring, growing crops and fighting our neighbours.

 

Not enough to get to be king though....

 

cheers, Mark

[pinecone]

Re: Magic system question

 

Amusing side-note - in the game King of Dragon Pass, one of the events that can happen is you get visited by wandering adventurers.

 

My tribe invited them in for dinner and then ambushed them (hey, they're not of our people, the rules of hospitality didn't apply). Although the 5 of them killed as many people as a full-fledged battle against a rival tribe (I didn't expect them to be so tough...) we got more loot and magical stuff than the whole tribe had made in 5 years of exploring, growing crops and fighting our neighbours.

 

Not enough to get to be king though....

 

cheers, Mark

Your mistake was ambushing them after dinner...get'em real drunk or wait till they take a few maidens to the saunna...Then attack.......

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Magic system question

 

Interesting thread. For comparison, here is an email I sent my game group just a couple of hours ago:

 

After giving it considerable thought, I have decided to use Hero

System for Rough Magic, if and when I actually run it. If you care,

I'll put the reasons at the end of this email.

 

Point levels will be determined later, but will probably be in the

150-200 point range. Equipment (both normal and magical) will cost

money or character points, at the player's option. I will provide

lists of commonly-available equipment.

 

Combat and so on will work as usual. Using a weapon requires a

Familiarity with that weapon, or else the character has a severe

penalty in its use.

 

Magic spells do not cost points directly. Much like weapons, they

require Familiarities for the branch of magic (such as "Familiarity:

Alchemy"). Each individual spell also requires its own skill (such as

"Sorcery: Belasis' Minor Restoration 14-"). Characters may also buy

skill levels with skills rolls in a particular branch of magic for 5

points each (such as "10 pts : +2 with Sorcery skill rolls"). I will

provide lists of commonly-known spells.

 

This means that a character can have access to rather powerful spells

by spending a relatively small number of points. However, the spells

to which characters have access will be limited to those which I have

approved, and some spells might have prerequisites before a character

can learn them (learning less powerful spells first, probably). My

goal with this is to allow more flexibility than D&D allows, but not

require spellcasters to spend 30 character points to approximate the

effect of a pistol, nor have "wizards" who only have three or four spells.

 

I will probably require anyone playing a spellcaster to assist me with

the spell list (using the Fantasy Hero Grimoire 1 & 2 will save a

great deal of that effort, I hope).

 

At this point in time, all of the above is open for discussion. In

fact, I'd appreciate it, because it would let me know that people are

actually interested in playing.

 

And now, the part you can skip if you are not interested in why I

chose Hero over D&D...

 

Reasons for Hero System:

 

1) I did not want to penalize people who have neither the time nor the

money to buy a half-dozen D&D books and read them all.

2) I prefer Hero Designer to PCGen (PCGen is a free D&D character

creator program). I like PCGen, and I use it when I play D&D, but

using PCGen is a good demonstration of just how ridiculously

complicated D&D character generation is.

3) I do not think that the ever-increasing number of Hit Points which

D&D characters have would work well in the kind of setting I have in

mind. Other level-based increases (damage, immunities, etc.) are also

problematic for me.

4) I like the flexibility of having magic system(s) built with Hero

System. I plan to have at least three distinct "official" systems, and

there could potentially be a dozen more, each with their own peculiar

requirements and limitations.

 

Reasons I considered D&D:

 

1) A ready-made magic system with a ready-made spell progression of

ready-made spells. This by itself was almost enough reason to choose D&D.

2) Things "just work". There's no need to stat out every trivial

little thing, such as the benefits gained by having a familiar. The

book says a familiar can do thus-and-so, and that's all you need to

know. In most cases, a D&D spell description is much simpler than an

equivalent Hero System spell description, while at the same time D&D

spells are much less constrained in their effects. A D&D spell can do

just about anything, and you don't need to come up with a mechanical

explanation for what Power accomplishes it.

 

Reading that, I am still not certain that Hero is the best choice, but

I'll stick with it until someone goes to the effort of convincing me

otherwise. I am open to discussing it.

 

I am open to discussing it here, as well.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Magic system question

 

1) A ready-made magic system with a ready-made spell progression of

ready-made spells. This by itself was almost enough reason to choose D&D.

2) Things "just work". There's no need to stat out every trivial

little thing, such as the benefits gained by having a familiar. The

book says a familiar can do thus-and-so, and that's all you need to

know. In most cases, a D&D spell description is much simpler than an

equivalent Hero System spell description, while at the same time D&D

spells are much less constrained in their effects. A D&D spell can do

just about anything, and you don't need to come up with a mechanical

explanation for what Power accomplishes it.

#2 I can do without, simply because I am willing to go to the level of detail or hand wave enough to make my life (and those of the players') easy.

 

#1 is indeed very tempting. That's why I am working on a ton of groundwork and conversions right now. So sad....

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Magic system question

 

With thanks to the inspiration provided by both Killer Shrike and Captain Obvious, I am at long last converting my Rough Magic game setting to Hero System, in preparation for running it with my current game group.

 

http://www.westguard.org/index.php?title=Rough_Magic