Magic system question

[Markdoc]

I'm in the throes of designing a new setting for my FH game. The basic idea is that in the area, there are two magical traditions: the Church/cult magic of the Sea people, who now pretty much rule the lands and the magic of the original inhabitants which is much more mysticism/shamanism oriented.

 

These two cultures live pretty much in harmony (think Shintoism/Buddhism in Japan) these days, although it wasn't always so. Here's the problem - I want each type of magic to have quite distinct "feels".

 

I've done the Church magic - it's based on VPPs, so the casters are quite flexible in spellcasting, although total power is limited ('cos VPPs are expensive).The VPPs are also limited in the sort of spell you can have, because it's quite difficult to learn spells from outside your cult. On the other hand you can modify spell the spells your know to your heart's content, as long as you can fit it in your pool. Finally, there is a system of plusses and minuses to the (required) skill roll, so players will have to think about material components, rituals and astrological conjunctions if they want to succeed at funky magic stuff. Being a magic user in the tradition of the Twelve means that you can do many things, but you are going to have to think about how you do your casting a lot. It's not suited for combat magery, but it makes an excellent backup. Also, if you want to be an effective spellcaster, by definition you need to sink a fair few points into it. so most mages are specialists.

 

However, I want the indigenous magic to have almost the exact opposite feel. Casters in the tradition of the Forest Man have only a few spells, but they can be cheap (so many people have one or two little spells, or "gifts" as they are called) - buandt they can also be powerful. Also, spells in this style of magic are essentially personal: so mages buy spells that affect them. So for combat, instead of fireball, you have a spell that makes you strong and fast. Instead of flight, you have a spell that lets you leap huge distances or run really fast. What I am going for is a "weird martial arts/Celtic battle magic" feeling: so it's OK for people to have astounding physical abilities, but not so much to have things so that onlookers go "Ooh! Magic!"

 

At the moment, I have simply said that magic users can buy their powers straight. With -2 1/2 in required limitations, that means that most spells will cost between 1/3 to 1/4 or real cost. It has the advantage that you can buy one spell, with no other investment. It also has the advantage that active points are no limit. If you want one butt-kicking Gift with 120 active points, that would be OK (assuming I OK it: though I'm more concerned with "feel" than actual power levels). My only concern is that it's TOO limited - that nobody will ever buy more than one or two gifts (that might be OK: I'm pondering here).

 

One possibility I am pondering is to keep the "buy spells straight" approach but require people to sacrifice some of their life-force - ie: they buy the spells with the independant (-2) limitation - and tie that to a sacred mark or Geas. For example Grimm the Black Hound could buy Mystical Dangersense, add independant (bringing the real cost down further) but take a geas "Cannot Ambush" (that's part of the limitation on the spell so it qualifies as independant - not necessarily a psych. Lim). If he ever breaks the Geas, the power and the points spent on it go away permanently unless he can atone for it somehow. Or Atlach the Strong has a spell that allows him to double his STR, which is tied to the bull tattoos on his arm: If they are destroyed, his power goes buh-bye (for good).

 

In this setting it might be possible to "steal" someone else's powers, which is an intriguing thought, though I am undecided as whether to allow this...

 

Anyway, any suggestions for a magic system that fits this pattern: easy to buy a few spells, hard to buy a lot. Can buy one or two powerful spells, but can't buy lots of powerful spells?

 

cheers, Mark

[Glupii]

Re: Magic system question

 

I don't have my book here to look it up and I am fairly new to the system yet, but I always thought Independent was for something with a focus that could be taken away? That was the reason for the huge limiter. So if they are done this way, it would seem that they definatly could be stolen. Just my thoughts. I am in the same throws as you on my system. If you have not already done so, check out Killer Shrike's site. It is choc full of great resources and considerations I never even thought of before reading it.

[Markdoc]

Re: Magic system question

 

Yep, I have checked out KS's awesome site, but none of the magic systems there do exactly what I want.

 

As far as Independant goes, it is normally on a focus, since there has to be some way that you can lose it, but it doesn't have to necessarily be usable by others: it could for example be on a unique focus that no-one else could use. In this case independant just means that if you lose it, it's gone forever.

 

To take two examples.

 

Sauron makes a magic ring and fixes it so only he can use it. It's a focus, IIF, personal. Since he's a munchkin, he bought all his stat.s down bought and then put them in the ring, so without it, he becomes a shapeless form of malice. If he loses it - by getting his finger cut off, say - then he can retreat to his dark kingdom and make another one. The GM might say that it takes a lot of time and gold n' stuff but he can make another one, at which point he's back in the game. Isildur might have the old one, but it doesn't do him much good.

 

On the other hand, if Sauron makes it so that the ring is an independant focus, then he loses all the points that went into it. Isildur still can't use the ring, but Sauron can't make a new one. All those points are still tied up in the ring. If it's destroyed, kiss 'em all buh-bye.

 

So in this regard, it works the same whether a focus is involved or not.

 

cheers, Mark

[Glupii]

Re: Magic system question

 

That makes sense. Of course I am not one of the gaming guru's who might have something I had not thought ot. But it sounds logival to me.

[LittleDevil]

Re: Magic system question

 

However, I want the indigenous magic to have almost the exact opposite feel. Casters in the tradition of the Forest Man have only a few spells, but they can be cheap (so many people have one or two little spells, or "gifts" as they are called) - buandt they can also be powerful. Also, spells in this style of magic are essentially personal: so mages buy spells that affect them. So for combat, instead of fireball, you have a spell that makes you strong and fast. Instead of flight, you have a spell that lets you leap huge distances or run really fast. What I am going for is a "weird martial arts/Celtic battle magic" feeling: so it's OK for people to have astounding physical abilities, but not so much to have things so that onlookers go "Ooh! Magic!"

 

At the moment, I have simply said that magic users can buy their powers straight. With -2 1/2 in required limitations, that means that most spells will cost between 1/3 to 1/4 or real cost. It has the advantage that you can buy one spell, with no other investment. It also has the advantage that active points are no limit. If you want one butt-kicking Gift with 120 active points, that would be OK (assuming I OK it: though I'm more concerned with "feel" than actual power levels). My only concern is that it's TOO limited - that nobody will ever buy more than one or two gifts (that might be OK: I'm pondering here).

 

One possibility I am pondering is to keep the "buy spells straight" approach but require people to sacrifice some of their life-force - ie: they buy the spells with the independant (-2) limitation - and tie that to a sacred mark or Geas. For example Grimm the Black Hound could buy Mystical Dangersense, add independant (bringing the real cost down further) but take a geas "Cannot Ambush" (that's part of the limitation on the spell so it qualifies as independant - not necessarily a psych. Lim). If he ever breaks the Geas, the power and the points spent on it go away permanently unless he can atone for it somehow. Or Atlach the Strong has a spell that allows him to double his STR, which is tied to the bull tattoos on his arm: If they are destroyed, his power goes buh-bye (for good).

 

In this setting it might be possible to "steal" someone else's powers, which is an intriguing thought, though I am undecided as whether to allow this...

 

Just wanted to say: This ROCKS! I wish I had thought of this earlier, when I was in the mood for Celtic saga-esque gaming. *Bookmarks this page for future yoinking*

 

Anyway, any suggestions for a magic system that fits this pattern: easy to buy a few spells, hard to buy a lot. Can buy one or two powerful spells, but can't buy lots of powerful spells?

 

One method I can think of immediatly is cost divisors that scale depending on the number of powers one has. For instance, the first spell is bought at RP/5 or whatever, the second at RP/3, the third at normal cost, the fourth at RPx2, and so on.

Of course, this is slightly bothersome, and easy to abuse, but tell me what you think of it.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic system question

 

Oddly enough, I have on my "TODO" list a bullet point to make a document discussing "Remarkable Abilities", to collate and extend the various non-Spell based super skills and similar scattered around my fantasy site.

 

However, I do have a Magic System that is similar to what you are discussing already posted -- Totemic Shamanism.

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/TotemicShamanism.shtml

 

Just switch out the "Totemic" aspect of it with some other concept and there you go.

 

On the other hand, if youre interested in "Tattoo Magic", the Runic Tattoo options in the larger Runeforging system could be used as a basis for that:

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/Runeforging.shtml

[Markdoc]

Re: Magic system question

 

Thanks, KS - I looked hard at the totemism magic system. It's got a nice feel, but is hugely powerful, since you only pay for Fam.s - a character built with that system would kick the butt of everybody else in my game.

 

I know the feel I want - it's mechanisms that I am after. The idea of paying cost/x where X decreases over time is an interesting one 8and one that I hadn't considered). In the end I think I'll pass, since I like to stick as close to standard Hero system as I can.

 

Thanks for the input, though!

 

cheers, Mark

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic system question

 

Thanks, KS - I looked hard at the totemism magic system. It's got a nice feel, but is hugely powerful, since you only pay for Fam.s - a character built with that system would kick the butt of everybody else in my game.

 

I know the feel I want - it's mechanisms that I am after. The idea of paying cost/x where X decreases over time is an interesting one 8and one that I hadn't considered). In the end I think I'll pass, since I like to stick as close to standard Hero system as I can.

 

Thanks for the input, though!

 

cheers, Mark

 

No problem. Although, I must say, I consider TS and Piedragemas (which share the same basic mechanical idea) to be the two weakest of the Magic Systems Ive provided. Different scales I suspect

[pinecone]

Re: Magic system question

 

One way to lower cost and make "stealing " magic work is use special materials required limits for "gifts" like say the head of someone with the "gift" you want, or the tattoos you peeled of of that strong but easaly drugged dude you met last week... Many culture that consider it possable to "steal" mana or the like practice headtaking or canabal rituals...the Celts for example took heads, as did most of the Gaulish peoples....

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic system question

 

Actually the magic in the book Legend of Nightshade worked like that. Some people were born with a single power, and it was possible to kill them and take their power. Wizard types were effectively assassins, murderers, or killers.

[pinecone]

Re: Magic system question

 

Actually the magic in the book Legend of Nightshade worked like that. Some people were born with a single power' date=' and it was possible to kill them and take their power. Wizard types were effectively assassins, murderers, or killers.[/quote']

Hurumph..."We prefer trouble eliminators and gentlemen of adventure"

[Markdoc]

Re: Magic system question

 

One way to lower cost and make "stealing " magic work is use special materials required limits for "gifts" like say the head of someone with the "gift" you want' date=' or the tattoos you peeled of of that strong but easaly drugged dude you met last week... Many culture that consider it possable to "steal" mana or the like practice headtaking or canabal rituals...the Celts for example took heads, as did most of the Gaulish peoples....[/quote']

 

That was kind of what I was thinking, although it's possible to trick people out of their powers, too. Cuchulain, for example had vowed not to eat dog flesh (because of the exploit that gave him his name). Maeve tricked him into eating it and as a result, Cuchulain lost some of his supernatural protection, leading eventually to his death.

 

In the New Zealand, the Maori have a very well-developed and complex concept of Mana and you can steal someone else's mana by ritually humiliating them - throwing a chief to the ground and standing on his head, for example (of course, cutting off their head and keeping it on a shelf over your door also works...). You can also - by ritual - give Mana to someone. So all in all, it looks like I might go with the "independant" concept. That should do what I want - it gives a big price break on little powers, but not such a big proice break on high active cost, heavily limited powers.

 

The power-stealing idea is going to change play dynamics, though.....

 

cheers, Mark

[UltraRob]

Re: Magic system question

 

 

The power-stealing idea is going to change play dynamics, though.....

 

cheers, Mark

 

Indeed, I'd be worried about players becoming focussed on stealing magic from others, it's kind've like introducing a massive magical scavenger hunt to the game. Depending on what kind of game you're trying to run, something like this could actually derail your campaign if your players decide to focus on it to the exclusion of other things.

 

In your place, I'd say GEAS are supplied by NPC gods (or whatever is applicable in your game) and maybe instead say they are supplied by said gods in trade for doing great deeds of bravery and valor (or something else which motivates them into action) instead.

 

 

Rob

[Markdoc]

Re: Magic system question

 

Indeed' date=' I'd be worried about players becoming focussed on stealing magic from others, it's kind've like introducing a massive magical scavenger hunt to the game. Depending on what kind of game you're trying to run, something like this could actually derail your campaign if your players decide to focus on it to the exclusion of other things.[/quote']

 

That was indeed, the reason I was bit iffy about independant in the first place.

 

Having ruminated on the topic for some days (Hoom, hoom) I don't think it will be a huge problem, for several reasons.

 

1. It's not like there's any one way to steal someone else's magic. In most cases, whatever your limitation is, you are likely to want to keep it secret. (Like Lysande in the Thieve's world series - the more I think of this, the more I see it in source material). And it not like most people's special gifts are going to be obvious. It can't be impossible to find out, otherwise there'd be no limitation, but going around knocking random strangers on the head is likely to be unrewarding.

 

However, it does introduce the interesting plot element that if the players go this route, that the bad guys will try to steal THEIR powers, introducing some interesting dynamics and secondly it allows me to use the "the big bad man is way too tough for you - the only way you can take him down is to find the secret of his magical might"

 

I actually did this once, long ago. I made a total munchkin NPC, who bought down all his stat.s and powers and then put them all in a focus, making him outrageously cost effective for his points. I still remember the look on the players' faces - they ambushed him in bed, stuck him full of spears and then he got out of bed and proceeded to kick them around, only mildly inconvenienced by all the stuff sticking out of him.

 

To beat him, they had to find where he had hidden his life - in a pocket universe, inside a temple protected by demons in a city full of undead...

 

and 2. I've been doing this gig for a while now and am quite confident of my ability to wrangle the PCs in the direction I want them going. By the time they are caught up in the adventue, running off in other direction is probably not going to seem appealing to them.

 

cheers, Mark

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Magic system question

 

That was kind of what I was thinking' date=' although it's possible to trick people out of their powers, too. Cuchulain, for example had vowed not to eat dog flesh (because of the exploit that gave him his name). Maeve tricked him into eating it and as a result, Cuchulain lost some of his supernatural protection, leading eventually to his death.[/quote']

 

She tricked him because he also had a geas to never refuse hospitality. When she offered him dog meat to eat, he was damned either way.

[pinecone]

Re: Magic system question

 

Yeah Iwas actually worried about the power stealing thang in the oposite direction...the heros might basicly try to hide their gifts and/or identitys to avoid having some dirt farmer bash thier head in with a shovel in hopes of gaining vast heroic power......"Thank you for saving us mighty hero! Who are you, that we might praise you!" "Umm...I'd rather not say..."

[UltraRob]

Re: Magic system question

 

Yeah Iwas actually worried about the power stealing thang in the oposite direction...the heros might basicly try to hide their gifts and/or identitys to avoid having some dirt farmer bash thier head in with a shovel in hopes of gaining vast heroic power......"Thank you for saving us mighty hero! Who are you' date=' that we might praise you!" "Umm...I'd rather not say..."[/quote']

 

It would only be a problem if the Dirt Farmer(s) knew the ritual (or method) to steal the gifts, which I suspect they wouldn't. Likely only a handful of people might know how to do this, but I can see your point, showing off your gifts would be asking for trouble in this setup.

 

Actually, another option might be the system I heard they used in one of the Final Fantasy games, which was something to the effect that people stole single-use spells from magical creatures and other magic-users (who presumably got them from magical critters). A magic user's only real ability was to steal spells, everything else was banked-up spells they stole!

 

Hmm, I wonder how it would be possible to do this kind of system in HERO?

 

Rob

[pinecone]

Re: Magic system question

 

It would only be a problem if the Dirt Farmer(s) knew the ritual (or method) to steal the gifts, which I suspect they wouldn't. Likely only a handful of people might know how to do this, but I can see your point, showing off your gifts would be asking for trouble in this setup.

 

Actually, another option might be the system I heard they used in one of the Final Fantasy games, which was something to the effect that people stole single-use spells from magical creatures and other magic-users (who presumably got them from magical critters). A magic user's only real ability was to steal spells, everything else was banked-up spells they stole!

 

Hmm, I wonder how it would be possible to do this kind of system in HERO?

 

Rob

Hey...he's an ignorant dirt farmer...so he fails to steal your power...your heads Still bashed in .. I guess you can do it as a weird VPP thang or just hand wave it..The Turakanian spell system gives me hives, but I just smile and pretend it all good...

[Markdoc]

Re: Magic system question

 

She tricked him because he also had a geas to never refuse hospitality. When she offered him dog meat to eat' date=' he was damned either way.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I know - I'm a big fan of that whole Irish/nationalist Myth thing, as you might have guessed from the references I gave.

 

Admittedly the writers set Cuchulain up the bomb, but still, a cunning GM should be able to wangle somthing along those lines....

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Magic system question

 

It would only be a problem if the Dirt Farmer(s) knew the ritual (or method) to steal the gifts' date=' which I suspect they wouldn't. Likely only a handful of people might know how to do this, but I can see your point, showing off your gifts would be asking for trouble in this setup.[/quote']

 

Yeah, but if you don't show off your gifts, then you're just an ignorant dirt farmer, right? To get to be rich and famous you have be known and respected (or feared). To do that you have to have "face" which means boasting of your prowess (and maybe even paying a poet or two on the side to make stuff up).

 

Let's face it, even an ambitious dirt farmer is going to be a bit leery about trying to take down the guy who jumped 20 metres onto Lord Whoreson's horse and took his head off with an axe a normal man can barely swing!

 

cheers, Mark

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[UltraRob]

Re: Magic system question

 

Hey...he's an ignorant dirt farmer...so he fails to steal your power...your heads Still bashed in ..

 

But the point is, unless he knows how to steal your magic (or that it's even possible) he won't have anything to gain but pain for trying. As MarkDoc pointed out, you have to have a pretty good motivation for facing down a legendary warrior who cuts men in two with a flick of his wrist.

 

 

I guess you can do it as a weird VPP thang or just hand wave it..The Turakanian spell system gives me hives, but I just smile and pretend it all good...

 

Yes, I guess that would have to be the way to do it. You have a VPP, but you can only fill it with spells you stole from others, and the VPP size represents your limit in stolen spells. Mind you, this seems awfully expensive if each spell is single use and then it's gone until you aquire a new one.

 

Rob

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Magic system question

 

Not sure what the issue is here. If using INDEPENDENT on Powers to indicate that they can be permanently taken, you most definitely would not want to use them in a VPP -- if they were stolen/taken you would lose access to that much Real Cost worth of your VPP until you recovered the Power.

 

You also don't need the overhead of a VPP to do this.

 

 

Here's how I would do it:

 

* Each character that wants to use this sort of Magic must take a Custom Talent "Gifted" that costs 10 character points.

 

* This Talent allows a character to have Powers; they must start with at least one Power.

 

* This Talent allows a character to take the Powers of other "Gifted" people by killing them.

 

* Each Power is bought without benefit of any Power Framework, and it's full Real Cost is paid.

 

* Each Power must take the Independent Limitation.

 

 

I might consider adding some kind of custom mechanic whereby characters can steal powers without killing, one at a time perhaps, but this is the basic tact I would take.

[UltraRob]

Re: Magic system question

 

Not sure what the issue is here. If using INDEPENDENT on Powers to indicate that they can be permanently taken, you most definitely would not want to use them in a VPP -- if they were stolen/taken you would lose access to that much Real Cost worth of your VPP until you recovered the Power.

 

You also don't need the overhead of a VPP to do this.

 

 

Here's how I would do it:

 

Oh, I think there's some confusion here.

 

I agree, Shrike, that would be an excellent system for having stealable totemic powers of the kind MarkDoc is proposing. Amazing work, as usual.

 

But, what we were talking about with the VPP was for a system like that used in FFVIII, where magic spells are all Independant - Single Use (1-Charge) spells that are actually stolen from the spell collections of others before that person or creature can use them. Mages cannot actually generate spells, they can only "acquire" them, but even then, once they've cast that spell they've used it up and lost it. Where magic spells are generated from would depend on the campaign in question (in FFVIII they were from the magical critters of the world I believe) but the point is mages are collecting them like they might collect scrolls or potions in another campaign.

 

So, Pinecone's thoughts were that you could use a VPP to represent the character's capacity to "hold" spells, but I can see how that's an awful lot to ask considering that they're not able to keep said spells. Probably making a talent like you're talking about would be best, and treating the acquired spells like they were equipment. Maybe the cost of the talent would reflect the number of stolen spells the character was capable of storing at a time, with the option of "losing" a spell to open up space for new ones.

 

Rob